Save Italy Strategy


  • 2017 '16 '13 '12

    What would you do in response to this as the German opening?

    Build 2 fighters and 1 destroyer, Save 2
    Take 106 with 2 subs (117 / 118) (87% win)
    Take 91 with 2 subs (103/ 108) (85% win)
    Attack 111 (BB, DD, CA) with 1 sub (124), 1 fighter (Norway), 1 tac (Western Germany), 1 fighter (Holland), 1 tac (Western Germany) 1 strat (Germany) 85% with scramble, 98% without scramble
    Attack southern France with 1 armor (Great Southern Germany), 1 tac (Germany) and 2 mech (Great Southern Germany) - 98% win
    Take France Turn 1 (7 infantry, 2 mec, 3 artillery, 5 tanks) 97% win
    Attack French Fleet with 2 fighters (Western Germany), 1 Tac (West Germany) 1 Bomber (Germany) (99%) Tac and 1 or 2 fighters continue to Tobruk
    Take Bulgaria with 1 infrantry from Romania / Finland with 1 infrantry from Norway
    Take Yugoslavia (3 tanks, 6 infantry with 3 from great southern germany, 1 from romania, 2 from slovakia, 2 artillery from great southern Germany), 1 tac from Poland, 1 fighter from Slovakia (1 fighter continues to Tobruk or South Italy, Tac Continues to South Italy as well)
    Move all AAA guns to Holland, land some planes there for defense.
    Place Destroyer in 112, Move Battleship and Cruiser there
    Place 2 fighters in Western Germany, to join at least another fighter.

    Effects:

    Zone 110 and 109 are left untouched. UK can send destroyer and planes to clear zone 106 or try to clear zone 91. The UK transport can try to go after Brazil or land troops somewhere else.

    Alternatively, UK sends everything at 112 (3 fighters, 1 bomber, the BB, the Cruiser and the destroyer). If Germany scrambles, the average IPC loss for the UK is 53, with units left a damaged BB (vulnerable to counterattack) and likely the bomber. This extensive use of planes and the DD from 109 denies UK to hit the Italians hard in 97 and leaves the wolfpacks in 106 intact. If the UK leaves the destroyer behind to handle 106, this changes the 112 battle to be almost even (and the 106 battle against the subs is by no means guaranteed).

    With 2 German Fighters (or 1 fighter / 1 tac) landing in Tobruk, the British attack on Tobruk cannot be done

    The best course of action seems to ignore the German Fleet in 112, go all out on 97 (using 2 fighters from UK and bomber from UK + Gib fighter). This becomes a 95% win with scramble of 3 fighters from Italy and Germany. Next step is to clear 106 with the 109 destroyer + scottish fighter (however, that fighter can’t make it back easily to the UK in one turn).

    If Italy / Germany scramble in 97, the UK losses should be close to 40 IPC, e.g., 1 destroyer + 3 fighters gone + carrier dammaged. Any UK fleet left (damaged carrier, Cruiser) and / or air left in Malta (Bomber, Tac) will be vulnerable to counterattack by what is left of Italy’s navy, air force and the German air force present in the med (Tobruk presence + bombers).

    Now, if the UK leaves 112 alone, they need to decide what to buy / where to put their Navy. With German Navy having a destroyer and 2 new fighters in west germany, I think the navy will be forced to retreat out of range of the German airforce before the start of G2 (same applies to the French cruiser).

    With several UK fighters out of the equation, as applicable (following attack on 97 and / or 106), it looks like a sea lion threat could be imminent and this should force a relatively conservative buy on the UK’s part in the first turn.

    With this strategy, the hope would be that Italy has a much easier time clearing the med and gaining a decisive advantage against UK troops in Africa, the Germans build a transport on their second turn in Southern France, or have the option to link up their 112 fleet with the Italians after the italians assault Gibraltar (I would like this idea of a German fleet sheltered in the med (opportunistically reinforced by subs produced there) and able to slip out to attack a fleet in tandem with a strong airforce). This German presence in the med allows for landing unit in Egypt and establishing a threat to the middle east.

    Broadly speaking, Japan would initially focus on China (with a little luck, slipping a few units through China into Russia should be possible later), while establishing a credible threat on Calcutta, but they would ultimately attack on their 3rd turn to delay entry of US into the war.

    Germany would re-build its air force on G2, take Bordeaux and Greece (leaving Italians to focus on North Africa and middle east)

    Russia would be struck I3 with the G4 German stack and planes moving in the territories previously conquered by the Italians. One related question is whether Germany can do this while staying at peace with the Russians…


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    I am a BIG believer in saving italy…

    Look at this game.

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=27878.0

    It’s my tournament game against cow… look at the G1.  The entire strategy was to convince the british to scramble, and to give italy as much support as possible.

    It -sort of- worked…  the J1 opener kind of screwed it a bit, becvause extra planes from India are now in africa… but overall, it’s been ok.

    I like what you’re thinking.


  • 2017 '16 '13 '12

    I’ll retake a look at that game…

    I like the plane buying as opposed to the Carrier. Gives incentive to UK to play tough while they should probably not and planes are also more flexible (I believe the threat of sinking an allied fleet is more effective than holding ground with the German fleet, hence my wish to slip the German fleet in the med and making gibraltar a fortress.)



  • Buy 6 subs a turn!  :evil:


  • TripleA

    I am a BIG believer in saving italy…

    Look at this game.

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=27878.0

    It’s my tournament game against cow… look at the G1.  The entire strategy was to convince the british to scramble, and to give italy as much support as possible.

    It -sort of- worked…  the J1 opener kind of screwed it a bit, becvause extra planes from India are now in africa… but overall, it’s been ok.

    I like what you’re thinking.

    In a 1v1, I’d power slam out a game right here. Sure sinking 97 would give you the odds to do sea lion, but russia would bank hard and sit in hungary or romania or poland then rush for rome with usa depending on how well defended uk is sometimes buy bombers on russia 3 and attack berlin russia 4, sea lion opens the door to russian aggression. usa would be full atlantic rounds 1-4 maybe 5 and then full pacific, usually italy gets conquered or uk gets liberated come round 5.

    Don’t get me wrong, it’d be a much more fun game.  Not sure why Japan went with a sino russian strategy, that put me to sleep, figured I’d make you sleepy time too and bring some india air over to the medit side of things.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    Nice. Leaving 110 fleet looks more attractive the more people do it.
    I think UK would have to leave UK defences open to Sealion. I would buy a DD for Canada, 2mech for SA and 4 Inf for England. You have  worried me out of making the Egypt IC. (Good one!)
    Attacks: Scottish Ft, BT, CR and DD against 91.
    Uk BB, 2Fts, AC, Cr, Tac and Malta Ft vs. 97.
    Gib Ft and DD from 98 vs. 96.
    NCM: UK TT to Gib with 1Inf and 1Mech.
    Egypt TT with 1Inf 1 Tk to Greece.
    Scottish Inf and AA to UK.
    French Channel CR would join Gib fleet.
    Realise UK would be probably convoyed 3 for Canada.


  • TripleA

    The only defense buy uk needs is an infantry buy round 1 and round 2.

    The rest should roll out to attack. Losing UK is not the end of the world. Russians tend to be stacked in east poland, and move into poland/hungary/romania the turn london drops. You don’t need to leave anything in novgorod or up top maybe some inf in karelia to get finland. Sometimes he’d get a choice between killing london or east poland, allies have an appropriate response for both scenarios. Like pushing for rome with russia/USA/remaining uk air (usually germany pulls london off so you get to liberate uk while he gets those units to push russians back). East poland hit is nice because europe is not so deep stacked, can actually do drops and stuff on europe since all that money was put into transports instead of men.

    I don’t like egypt minor until uk round 2 when the sea lion threat has passed by or become relevant. I don’t like naval buy. only 6 inf 1 fighter or 9 inf always for uk.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    If I don’t make that IC will only kick myself later, especially as I have weakened Egypt with the Greece adventure. Usually I am so defensive, but you have irked me. I rarely play as the Allies, just see good moves against my old, boring Axis ones. Realise I would retreat from Alex and Sudan too, depends if my 96 DD and at least one Naval unit survived in 97, so blocking an Italian Amphibious assault on Egypt. That is when I would be kicking myself over not having bought the Egypt IC.
    But if England falls to a Sealion I only get to build in it once, before a joint Axis effort takes Egypt on 3.


  • TripleA

    Exactly what good is a minor if you don’t have your capital.

    Plus you want to cut into as many infantry/armor as possibru when germany is actually doing a sea lion, that way russia slug his way toward rome and get air back up landing on top, when russia makes it to northern italy usa drops on top. then bam rome is yours.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    No one likes building a factory for someone else to use!


  • TripleA

    Just do what is necessary to shut italy down. That should be uk’s top priority along with holding the capitals. It is also USA’s priority when uk needs help and russians can pitch in some ground.


  • 2017 '16 '13 '12

    A think your buys reflects an aggressive UK that thinks Germany doesn’t want to do sea lion, or wants or allied play that wants Germany to do Sealion (which is overall a good response).

    The 97 battle outcome with scramble of 3 fighters is quite close. I see 1 aircraft carrier, 1 cruiser, 3 fighters, 1 tac and 1 bomber in this battle. It’s essentially a slaughter with each side losing 60 IPCs (Including 1 or 2 German aircraft and 1 or 2 Italian aircraft). The RAF would likely be crippled after this battle.

    Italy would go after anything that is left from sea zone 98 with the sub and the bomber. Possibility to attack Malta sea zone and whatever planes are there with troops, the sub and the cruiser), but need to weigh in against trying Gibraltar. If there is no DD to cover malta, then the cruiser and troops likely give a shot at Gibraltar (only a 12% chance of winning but roughly IPC neutral). If Gibraltar falls, which is unlikely but possible, then Germany will completely wipe out the fleet in 91 with very minimal losses because of other planes thrown in the mix. If Gibraltar does not fall, the losses should help Germany assault it with troops on their turn (Good shot at killing another UK fighter in the process).

    In Gibraltar, you would have scottish fighter, with 1 infantry and 1 mech.

    In 91, You end up with 1 battleship, 2 cruisers (1 French) and 1 DD (assuming none of the sub(s) hit). Germany can hit this on its turn with 2 bombers, 1 battleship, 1 cruiser and 1 destroyer. That’s a 86% battle where Germany loses 28 IPCs in the sea battle. If Germans can bring in more planes because of a miraculous upset by Italianz in Gibraltar, then Germany can mitigate losses to be in the 10s. The naval battle should normally give way to an Amphibious landing.

    One of the two German planes in Tobruk would go kill the Greek transport, the other plane would go support a massive attack on Greece on the German’s part with 5 infantry, 3 armor and tac bombers that cannot participate in other battles (thereby neutralizing the UK landing there easily).

    The sub(s) and the destroyer in 106 would slug it out.

    Assuming Germany has 73 to spend, German buys would be a 1 bomber (flexibility, ability to strike deep and overpower any attempt at building a destroyer fleet and protect with scrambles. Also good for bombing london, which is very minimally defended). probably dropping 1 sub to threathen 109 if both subs in 106 survived (as I would expect these to take care of the new Canadian destroyer, this buy would force UK to by another canadian destroyer on UK’s turn). Maybe 1 fighter to keep the airforce strong enough, 10 infantries in Germany to reinforce the foundation for a Russian stack (or a defence if UK opens sea lion). Save 15 IPCs to leave the UK thinking. Collect about 58 IPCs and end G2 with $73 again.

    Saving the rest of the money and the number of aircrafts on the board keep the sea lion threat open. What is done beyond that depends on what the US is putting on the board. After 2 turns, the UK airforce and navies are completely neutralized and Italy has a robust presence in the med.

    @wittman:

    Nice. Leaving 110 fleet looks more attractive the more people do it.
    I think UK would have to leave UK defences open to Sealion. I would buy a DD for Canada, 2mech for SA and 4 Inf for England. You have  worried me out of making the Egypt IC. (Good one!)
    Attacks: Scottish Ft, BT, CR and DD against 91.
    Uk BB, 2Fts, AC, Cr, Tac and Malta Ft vs. 97.
    Gib Ft and DD from 98 vs. 96.
    NCM: UK TT to Gib with 1Inf and 1Mech.
    Egypt TT with 1Inf 1 Tk to Greece.
    Scottish Inf and AA to UK.
    French Channel CR would join Gib fleet.
    Realise UK would be probably convoyed 3 for Canada.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    Thanks for the breakdown. I said I liked your moves. I have just started a game as Axis and would have tried your ideas if I had been able, as my Allied opponent is better than me. Would have liked to see how he would have reacted to it.
    I tried to think like he would, but maybe he would have been defensive. Suppose I can only hope taking down England gives Russia space and life.


  • TripleA

    I like sinking sz 97. it is a good move.



  • I’m a strong believer in saving Italy strategies. I still need to find a good one tho’


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    I think both you and I believe(and hope) in a second Roman Empire, Noll.
    I always cry inside when inevitably, our one hope, the Navy is sunk.


  • 2017 '16 '13 '12

    The obvious disadvantage of this strategy is that attacks on Soviets are made I3 / G4 instead of a G2 or I2 / G3. Since Italy did not handle Greece / Southern Europe, it will have a decent can opening force on the Eastern Front sufficient to take any territory (unless the russians make a stand) and having the Germans land their significant air force to prevent a counterattack. If there are no attractive targets on G4 (e.g, Russian Navy, bordering territories), then I believe Germany can reinforce the Russian territory(ies) captured in I3 (e.g., both Eastern Poland and Baltic States) without a declaration of war (thus collecting 5 IPC again?)

    I like this though because the German airforce should be quite strong and a late declaration of war to Russia gives the 5 extra IPC to Germany multiple times, prevents Russia to do the middle east trick and prevents Russia from getting its other war NO.

    If the German stack lead by repeated robust Italian can openers on an instoppable on it’s march to Moscow, then we should have this:

    G4 (German stack in Baltic States with war on or not, if at War consider taking Karelia / Vyborg) - On R4, Russians need to abandon Leningrad (retreat to Archangel or total consolidation in Belarus or make a stand there)

    On I4, Italians open belarus or take Leningrad.

    On G5, Germans attack Belarus to reduce russian stack with superior firepower (and retreat if counterattack threat looms) or reinforce Italian belarus conquest.

    On I5, assuming Russians fell back, Italians Open Smolensk

    On G6, Germans reinforce Smolensk. (throughout this process, watch for ways to strat bomb russia with benefit of strong air force).

    on G7 or G8 decisive attack on Moscow.

    Waiting a bit to attack the Russians and save Italians troops for the can opening will lead to larger battles on the russian front or a planned retreat (which is good for Germany). This would create steady momentum for Germany (who can fight on their own terms, preserve their forces) and gradually weaken the Soviet union. If the outcome of the decisive battle in Moscow is in doubt, then just “go around it” and let germany create a steady flow of infantries and planes that slowly strangles the soviets while leaving options open on the Eastern front (e.g., strategic bombing, mechanized strikes supported by air force). This further complicates the US’s role to strike Italy.

    The Italian buy on I1 was not determined, but I now think that 1 tank / 1 mech in Northern Italy is the right choice to the condition that at least 2 German fighters land in South Italy (better yet 3) to preserve some Italian air power (leaving tac bombers to cover Tobruk)

    So because of this, I would adjust my first turn to this (shifting one bomber and one tac from 111, allowing for extra German fighters to land in South Italy instead of Tobruk). By taking the losses in SZ 97, this allows the German to inject 20 or 30 IPC in Italy’s economy and put the UK in further trouble. If UK chickens out, this German airforce (2 - 3 fighets and 1 tac in south italy + 2 Tacs in Tobruk), ensures that the UK leaves the med.

    Build 2 fighters and 1 destroyer, Save 2
    Take 106 with 2 subs (117 / 118) (87% win)
    Take 91 with 2 subs (103/ 108) (85% win)
    Attack 111 (BB, DD, CA) with 1 sub (124), 1 fighter (Norway), 1 fighter (Holland), 1 tac (Western Germany) 2 strat (Germany) 85% with scramble, 98% without
    Attack southern France with 1 armor (Great Southern Germany), 1 tac (Germany) and 2 mech (Great Southern Germany) - 98% win
    Take France Turn 1 (7 infantry, 2 mec, 3 artillery, 5 tanks) 97% win
    Attack French Fleet with 2 fighters (Western Germany), 2 Tac (West Germany) (99%) 2 Tacs contnue to tobruk and one or 2 fighters land in south italy
    Take Bulgaria with 1 infrantry from Romania / Finland with 1 infrantry from Norway
    Take Yugoslavia (3 tanks, 6 infantry with 3 from great southern germany, 1 from romania, 2 from slovakia, 2 artillery from great southern Germany), 1 tac from Poland, 1 fighter from Slovakia (1 fighter continues to South Italy, Tac Continues to South Italy)


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    I like the sound of it. Does all hang on taking Moscow of course and US not retaking France if Egypt looks too hard.
    Have you played it or only planned it?



  • should totally test it out on tripple A


  • 2017 '16 '13 '12

    @wittman:

    I like the sound of it. Does all hang on taking Moscow of course and US not retaking France if Egypt looks too hard.
    Have you played it or only planned it?

    I unfortunately don’t have enough time to play this game online, my time would be getting sucked into this too much. I’m prepping for my next in person game. I spend some time reading this forum and played the global version IRL a few times.


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    Same. Have a young daughter and my own restaurant, so play a few times a year with friends who live and work in different cities. Still plan and dream of changing the order of things. I love history. Nice talking.


  • 2017 '16 '13 '12

    On US re-taking France:

    As long as Italy can balance out UK and send a couple Mech Infantry per turn in Russia, I don’t think the US would be that big of a deal in terms of taking France and keeping it. The supply line is fairly involved for the US and Germany should have enough IPCs / air force to hold out (in theory, in practice the air force can only be at one place at once). What I’m the most worried about is Italy not faring as well as expected and significant early US airforce knocking off fleets in the med to give UK some breather and / or altering the balance in Russia in later turns.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    I’ve given up on SZ 97, PERIOD.  Even if Germany does not land a plane to scramble, I’d lose that fight.  I could have 98% odds in my favor, and lose that battle, so I dont fight it anymore.

    As for saving Italy - Sea Lion does that every time.  I’ve never lost Italy after a sea lion SUCCESS (defined as both taking England and having enough left over to repush the Russians out again.)  I don’t think in 3.9 you can succeed in Sea Lion anymore.  Personal feeling.

    Now, to save Italy, I think Japan has to pull America into the Pacific. It’s probably the only way.  W/O America, Germany can take on Russia, keep the British happy and defend Italy if necessary (those planes can literally defend a lot of territory, and put massive threat out if you do it right.)

    One thing I’ve done is:  If America’;s buying fleet in the Atlantic, build transports in SZ 6 and threaten to take Midway, Wake, Hawaii and Alaska (or Aluetians.)  It’s better than the DEI, I feel.  Not financially (17 for Japan vs 24 for Japan in income differential) but because it puts America in a vice.  That’s if Americas going fleet heavy in the Atlantic anyway.


  • TripleA

    do people seriously liberate france?


  • 2020 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15 '14 '13 Moderator

    H Jen. If US skulks by OZ Turn 2  and therefore threatens SE Asia or Carolines, are you still happy to look East as Japan? I can’t.


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