Russia opening move?



  • This is a toughy.  In 1st ed, I thought it was easy for me to decide on what to do…(assume strait closed)

    Option 1: Buy 6inf, 1 tank, send in Archangel, Karelia FTR and Art, All Russia, Caucus art/tank into W. Russia, then split the FTR between Caucus and Karelia? Bad thing about this is the Germans could force everything into one or both Caucus and Karelia and you would lose your FTRs, which would cripple Russia.  I guess the one Archangel inf could go to Karelia instead and then have both FTR in Karelia.  This would keep Germany off of England for the most part (forcing them to split the subs and possibly lose the French FTR in a battle.

    Option 2: Buy 6inf, 1 tank hit W. Russian and Ukraine (2art,4inf{5 if you send archangel}, 1 tank, 1FTR), (Art/3inf/3tank/1ftr) respectively.
    NCM out East: Leave status quo with exception of the two in Evengi?
    I’m looking for thoughts good or bad, not saying what the moves are…especially the buy, because while I would love to go 5inf/2art, I think the tank is needed more…

    By the way, Pearl Harbor will never fall now on J1 esp if you re-inforce with the Cruiser and sub from UK but why would you?  I guess this fixes the gripes about US losing it’s carrier fleet every game in 1st ed.  Looks like the Pacifc will hinge on how ballsy you get with UK (assuming your FTR in Egypt survives on G1)… I think this will be a UK1 standard if it does.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Russia: 24 IPC
    Builds:

    1. 8 infantry or
    2. 2 tanks, 4 infantry (aggressive)

    Attack:

    1. West Russia: with 3 tanks, 1 fighter, 5 infantry ( Moscow and Archangel), 1 artillery  ( 20 vs 11)
    2. Finland: with 1 fighter, 4 infantry, 1 artillery ( 10 vs 6)

    NCM:
    Kazach SSR to Caucasus
    Novo to Moscow
    Evenki to Archangel

    Place 4 units in Caucasus (both tanks if built) and 4 in Moscow. Karelia leave open.



  • I agree it’s tough decision on what to do for Russia’s opening moves in 2nd ed compared to 1st ed Spring 1942. They have 3 less Inf on the board at the start compared to 1st ed (21 compared to 24), but they do have 1 more artillery, 2 AAA’s and 1 extra IC (on Karelia), which I think should be defended if possible.

    Mallery29 - I like your R1 buy of 6 infantry, 1 tank (8 infantry is also an option for me)
    Imperious Leader - I like the idea of attacking West Russia and Finland, although I’d adjust the unit balances slightly. However, I’m not sure why you’d leave Karelia open as I think it’s worth defending it more compared to 1st ed (usually I’d leave just 1 infantry there in 1st ed).

    Builds:
    1 tank, 6 infantry

    Attack:
    West Russia with 3 tanks and 2 artillery (from Caucasus & Moscow), 7 infantry (Moscow & Cauc), 1 fighter
    Finland with 4 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 fighter (all from Karelia)

    Non-combat:
    Both fighters land and 1 infantry from Kazakh SSR to Caucasus
    1 infantry from Novo to Moscow
    2 infantry from Evenki to Archangel
    1 infantry and 1 tank from Archangel to Karelia
    AAA from Moscow to West Russia
    Stack Buryatia with infantry from Yakut and SF
    Sub from SZ4 to SZ7

    Place 3 infantry & 1 tank on Caucasus, 1 infantry on Moscow and 2 infantry on Karelia

    End R1 should leave:
    4 infantry, 1 tank, 2 fighters, 1 AAA on Caucasus
    3 infantry, 1 tank on Karelia
    2 infantry on Moscow
    2 infantry on Archangel
    5 infantry on Buryatia
    Surviving units on West Russia (estimate 3 infantry, 2 artillery, 3 tanks, 1 AAA)
    Surviving units on Finland (estimate 2 infantry, 1 artillery)



  • @Mallery29:

    By the way, Pearl Harbor will never fall now on J1 esp if you re-inforce with the Cruiser and sub from UK but why would you?  I guess this fixes the gripes about US losing it’s carrier fleet every game in 1st ed.  Looks like the Pacifc will hinge on how ballsy you get with UK (assuming your FTR in Egypt survives on G1)… I think this will be a UK1 standard if it does.

    Russia aside, the UK can’t get ships from Australia to Hawaii UK1 (3 spaces). The Japanese have enough units to do Pearl2 (air mostly), but the allies would have a pretty good counter.



  • Yeah, I saw that after the fact (but if you move to SZ 43, do you really think the Japanese are going to risk losing stuff to a CA/SS only to get smited US1 by the US Pacific fleet)  and if you have a US buy of CV/DD/2FTR and move the CA from Panama out there, you really think the Japanese will go offensive…  I expect the UK player to do something like this:

    UK1: 2inf/art (For India), 2FTR (UK) or inf/tank/FTR (for India), FTR (UK)
    If FTR in Egypt survives (Germany would either have 2tanks/2inf/BMB or 1tank/2inf/art/BMB against inf/art/ftr/tank), hit E.Indies fleet with 2CA, 2FTR, CV, SS (1(1),2(2),4(3s) vs 1(2), 3(4s) and use the transports to try to take New Guinea (2inf from Aus) and Borneo (inf/art).  Should take Borneo, New Guinea is hope (although I would probably retreat the Transport to SZ30 (if you wipe out the Japanese fleet, take two guys with you from East AUS, so then next turn you can drop them in India, otherwise it keeps a plane from hitting Asia).  The Americans could re-inforce India w/its FTR,  but with the loss of the South fleet, I expect Japan to pull back everything just so it can knock out most of China in one shot.  So with this UK1 and US1 buy Pearl2 (because I expect the US fleet to take the Solomons) will NEVER happen (unless your Japanese player has been hitting the sake…)

    If you used the first buy, send 2 UK FTR to Moscow, otherwise send 1.

    Can’t wait to play!



  • Thoughts on the Eastern stack? I thought about the 5inf stack at Buryatia, but after seeing them wiped out easily on J2, is this even worth the effort (assuming UK puts great effort into holding India, this makes Buryatia a likely target J2).  Japan is going to take the 3IPCs from Russia with little resistance anyways (Japan will probably only lose 2inf), so why not just start pulling back to Novoborisk and use that as the initial line and fall back from there possibly J2/3 to Evengi to shore up the middle if needed or just head to Moscow?  At least if you hold at Novo, you will probably only be affected by 1-2 IPCs (IPCs lost sooner than expected, not per turn), and if you just go to Evengi, it’s really only a loss of 3-4IPCs (ditto) while holding on to 15IPCs worth of defense (5[2s]).



  • @Mallery29:

    Thoughts on the Eastern stack? I thought about the 5inf stack at Buryatia, but after seeing them wiped out easily on J2, is this even worth the effort (assuming UK puts great effort into holding India, this makes Buryatia a likely target J2).  Japan is going to take the 3IPCs from Russia with little resistance anyways (Japan will probably only lose 2inf), so why not just start pulling back to Novoborisk and use that as the initial line and fall back from there possibly J2/3 to Evengi to shore up the middle if needed or just head to Moscow?  At least if you hold at Novo, you will probably only be affected by 1-2 IPCs (IPCs lost sooner than expected, not per turn), and if you just go to Evengi, it’s really only a loss of 3-4IPCs (ditto) while holding on to 15IPCs worth of defense (5[2s]).

    yep, u gotta pull them dudes back and give up the coast to Japan. Those dudes are alot better a few spaces west of Japan than they are on the coast.


  • 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 '14 '13 Moderator

    Agreed. On R1 pull them back and If Japan goes for China with all his starting Inf you can move them  back if he does not build an IC in Manchuria on J1. Then he has to go back to protect Manchuria or carry on with his westward advance and risk losing it. Do not think Japan can attack both ways and keep US out of Philippines.
    Keep those Russians alive as long as possible to annoy Japan, as are no Chinese reinforcements to hold him up.



  • @wittmann:

    Agreed. On R1 pull them back and If Japan goes for China with all his starting Inf you can move them  back if he does not build an IC in Manchuria on J1. Then he has to go back to protect Manchuria or carry on with his westward advance and risk losing it. Do not think Japan can attack both ways and keep US out of Philippines.
    Keep those Russians alive as long as possible to annoy Japan, as are no Chinese reinforcements to hold him up.

    i even march 2 singles from russia into china to slow em down. it’s gonna take 5 or more allied fighters to save russia, they may as well clog some land for the allies.



  • @Mallery29:

    This is a toughy.  In 1st ed, I thought it was easy for me to decide on what to do…(assume strait closed)

    Option 1: Buy 6inf, 1 tank, send in Archangel, Karelia FTR and Art, All Russia, Caucus art/tank into W. Russia, then split the FTR between Caucus and Karelia? Bad thing about this is the Germans could force everything into one or both Caucus and Karelia and you would lose your FTRs, which would cripple Russia.  I guess the one Archangel inf could go to Karelia instead and then have both FTR in Karelia.  This would keep Germany off of England for the most part (forcing them to split the subs and possibly lose the French FTR in a battle.

    Option 2: Buy 6inf, 1 tank hit W. Russian and Ukraine (2art,4inf{5 if you send archangel}, 1 tank, 1FTR), (Art/3inf/3tank/1ftr) respectively.
    NCM out East: Leave status quo with exception of the two in Evengi?
    I’m looking for thoughts good or bad, not saying what the moves are…especially the buy, because while I would love to go 5inf/2art, I think the tank is needed more…

    By the way, Pearl Harbor will never fall now on J1 esp if you re-inforce with the Cruiser and sub from UK but why would you?  I guess this fixes the gripes about US losing it’s carrier fleet every game in 1st ed.  Looks like the Pacifc will hinge on how ballsy you get with UK (assuming your FTR in Egypt survives on G1)… I think this will be a UK1 standard if it does.

    I’ve played it now the whole weekend, and these are my thoughts.

    Allies are at some serious and brutal disadvantage. Russians opening turn counts for what UK can do next.

    1. I would forget about the Russian FTR on Moscow. That thing has to fly to Egypt and make sure Germany can NOT attack Egypt. If the Russian FTR is not there, the whole thing collapses and UK can’t attack Japanese fleet on East Indies without UK FTR on Egypt.  Even if you don’t attack Japanese Fleet, it is still nice to have that UK FTR which can fill in the Carrier so that Carrier has 2 FTR on it + UK Fleet can merge on SZ30 as an option if a UK player wants to expand UK-India fleet right away.  Also a UK Destroyer outside Syria will most likely not be attacked by Germany if Germany can’t stage an attack on Egypt. Usually the German Battleship goes other way around, towards the Gibraltar.

    2. Russia can actually strike 3 German areas at once, Belorussia, West Russia and Ukraine. Although it is not recommended, Russia lose to much armor, and I don’t like that, it does put some pressure on Germany as in Germany having no chance to build boats on G1, since the whole eastern front is wiped out, and they have to use forces from Poland and Bulgaria-Romania to take back Ukraine and Belorussia.

    Advantage for Russia is though that it’s IPC is increased to 30, but armor and artilleries do suffer. Disadvantage for the UK, Egypt will most likely be attacked and there is no chance to even consider an attack on Japanese E-Indies fleet since the UK FTR from Egypt will be destroyed.

    2)Another option is to attack the whole Northern Flank, but Russia will need BOTH FTR to do it, so again, it sucks for Egypt and the UK.

    However, advantage for Russia is that Germany can’t send sick, brutal force into Leningrad right away, as they can with the other options.

    If Russia attacks Finland with 2 INF, 1 Armor and 1 FTR and then attack at the same time Belorussia with 2 INF + 1 Artillery + 1 FTR then the rest of the forces can destroy West-Russia with losing 2-3 Russian INF.

    2 INF from Evenki need to go to Arkangelsk to create a small wall against Germany. 1 INF from Novosibirsk, can be sent to Sinkiang and 1 INF from Kazakstan to the area where U.S. FTR + 2 INF are.

    This way, Leningrad is under a lot LESS pressure, there is not much Germany can send to Leningrad, 3 INF and 4 Armor.

    Russia can build 8 INF. Put 4 INF on Caucasus, 4 INF on Moscow.



  • @AxisBrutality:

    I’ve played it now the whole weekend, and these are my thoughts.

    Allies are at some serious and brutal disadvantage. Russians opening turn counts for what UK can do next.

    1. I would forget about the Russian FTR on Moscow. That thing has to fly to Egypt and make sure Germany can NOT attack Egypt. If the Russian FTR is not there, the whole thing collapses and UK can’t attack Japanese fleet on East Indies without UK FTR on Egypt.  Even if you don’t attack Japanese Fleet, it is still nice to have that UK FTR which can fill in the Carrier so that Carrier has 2 FTR on it + UK Fleet can merge on SZ30 as an option if a UK player wants to expand UK-India fleet right away.   Also a UK Destroyer outside Syria will most likely not be attacked by Germany if Germany can’t stage an attack on Egypt. Usually the German Battleship goes other way around, towards the Gibraltar.

    Had a few games myself as Allies. The issue is that the R1 options are almost the same as 1st Ed. (I hadn’t remembered about the Soviet fighter landing on Egypt - nice) but afterwards 2nd Ed is a complete new game regarding Allied strategy because of the different map and how to pull off a KGF/KJF, while the Axis moves remain almost the same from 1st Ed.

    My only objection with the move of the Soviet fighter to Egypt is that it tips off Germany of a KJF possibility (and have them starting to pile up on ground units to move against Russia) and it removes 1 key Soviet unit during two rounds against the Germans.

    1. Russia can actually strike 3 German areas at once, Belorussia, West Russia and Ukraine. Although it is not recommended, Russia lose to much armor, and I don’t like that, it does put some pressure on Germany as in Germany having no chance to build boats on G1, since the whole eastern front is wiped out, and they have to use forces from Poland and Bulgaria-Romania to take back Ukraine and Belorussia.

    Advantage for Russia is though that it’s IPC is increased to 30, but armor and artilleries do suffer. Disadvantage for the UK, Egypt will most likely be attacked and there is no chance to even consider an attack on Japanese E-Indies fleet since the UK FTR from Egypt will be destroyed.

    With lowluck it is safe to attack Belo, WRus and Ukraine, but with regular dice the odds of winning all three attacks drop to about 60%. Even if the Soviets win Germany should invest on the ground and counter all three territories to destroy those Soviet units and force them to counterattack.

    2)Another option is to attack the whole Northern Flank, but Russia will need BOTH FTR to do it, so again, it sucks for Egypt and the UK.

    However, advantage for Russia is that Germany can’t send sick, brutal force into Leningrad right away, as they can with the other options.

    If Russia attacks Finland with 2 INF, 1 Armor and 1 FTR and then attack at the same time Belorussia with 2 INF + 1 Artillery + 1 FTR then the rest of the forces can destroy West-Russia with losing 2-3 Russian INF.

    2 INF from Evenki need to go to Arkangelsk to create a small wall against Germany. 1 INF from Novosibirsk, can be sent to Sinkiang and 1 INF from Kazakstan to the area where U.S. FTR + 2 INF are.

    This way, Leningrad is under a lot LESS pressure, there is not much Germany can send to Leningrad, 3 INF and 4 Armor.

    Russia can build 8 INF. Put 4 INF on Caucasus, 4 INF on Moscow.

    Against me you’ll lose WRus on G1. Soviets will have 1 AA, 6 INF (assuming 2 INF lost), 1 ART and 3 ARM on WRus. Germans send 3 INF, 1 ART, 3 ARM, 5 FTRs, 1 BMR, that’s 91% odds. Germans would also attack Karelia, Finland, Belorussia and stack Ukraine.



  • 3 Battles for Russia is easy targets for the Germans….the Luftwaffe would just tear everything to bits and then Russia would never go back on the offensive.  Yeah, naval targets would survive, but once the Russian lines are gone, that naval isn’t going to be around much longer either.  Ukraine is too valuable to pass up.  Haven’t seen a KGF yet in 42.2…seems like everyone is taking out their frustration on the Japanese for past crimes.



  • My only objection with the move of the Soviet fighter to Egypt is that it tips off Germany of a KJF possibility (and have them starting to pile up on ground units to move against Russia) and it removes 1 key Soviet unit during two rounds against the Germans.

    Against me you’ll lose WRus on G1. Soviets will have 1 AA, 6 INF (assuming 2 INF lost), 1 ART and 3 ARM on WRus. Germans send 3 INF, 1 ART, 3 ARM, 5 FTRs, 1 BMR, that’s 91% odds. Germans would also attack Karelia, Finland, Belorussia and stack Ukraine.
    –--------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hi, yes I agree, it’s a good counter there, so Northern Flank makes West Russia to weak.

    1. I looks like just taking W.Russia or W.Russia and Ukraine is the safest bet. Although that Moscow FTR need to go to Egypt, in order to be 100% sure that Germany can’t do anything in Egypt, which helps the UK being able to attack the E.Indies fleet. I think it’s a key unit Russia has to “reserve” for the UK on R1 and land back on Moscow or Caucasus on R2. Or else Germany can be tempted to attack Egypt without that Russian FTR and then, UK won’t be able to do anything with E.Indies with just on UK FTR on India, so UK needs both FTR from India and Egypt.

    2. How about this, I am not saying it’s better than the above strategy, I am just brainstorming. What if Russia takes out Ukraine and Belorussia, and isolate German forces in W.Russia ? It would be kind of fun to do that move just to test out, how that plays out taking out Belorussia and Ukraine, while Germans are isolated i W.Russia.
      There is no way for Germany to take on Moscow or Caucasus with 3 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank but they could strike Arkangelsk, however, Arkangelsk will be reinforced with 2 INF from Evenki. And if they strike Arkangelsk, there will be fewer German forces that can take Leningrad. Germany would have to let 1 German INF stay at W-Russia or else Russian tanks can just blitz through on R2. � It would be interesting to try.

    But back to the safe option 1). When Russia does what I argued for, I think we agree, then UK can attack the Japanese E.Indies fleet. Now, I’ve found out how to put more pressure on Japan on FIC, so that Japan has to commit most of their forces to defending FIC. With E-Indies fleet gone and dead, UK can move 3 INF from India to Burma, now UK has 4 INF on Burma.

    Besides 4 UK INF on Burma, UK can move 1 INF from Iran to India. UK Transport from India should get a tank from Egypt to India. Then UK can buy 3 Tanks, 1 FTR + 1 INF or save 3 IPC, but UK should buy 3 Tanks and 1 FTR. � Put those 3 Tanks on India, that makes UK having 4 Tanks on India and 1 INF + 4 INF on Burma. �  Move 1 INF from Syria to Egypt, so that UK has 2 INF + 1 Artillery there. � 1 FTR which has been bought, should be put on London. � Whatever is left of UK Fleet after the attack on E-Indies should land back on India if any UK FTR survived.

    And finally, a UK bomber should fly to Caucasus, making it able to strike FIC on UK2 with 4 Tanks, 4 INF and possibly 1 FTR if it survives after the E-Indies attack.

    So the whole thing is extremely connected to what UK can do based on what Russia has done for the UK on R1, which should be flying a Russian FTR to Egypt, that’s all Russia has to do, and then it’s UK showtime:)



  • Why I feel stacking Burma is bad on UK1:
    UK: 4inf vs. Japan: 4inf/2art/1tank/1FTR at Burma with potential of BB shore shot (from Japan)
    Japan then uses the rest of its forces to hit the two Chinese territories w/o the FTR (inf/art/FTR/Bomber at Yunan, 5inf/FTR at Anwhei). Sure, you give up Kwangsi to one American, but Burma will fall. � Any counter on UK2 at Burma will be destroyed by a second wave of Japanese troops on J2(2trans bought J1). � If you are going to move the Russian FTR to Egypt, I would just pull out of Burma and do what you say about moving troops to India. � You’ll be in a better position to defend/attack (keep your inf fodder to protect your tank buys) without stacking Burma(your transports will get sacked eventually, but your reinforcements will provide you a solid wall against the Japanese . � If you send the FTR to Egypt, I’m not so sure about hitting Ukraine (likely an attack will fail losing lots of Russians, better to hold the line at Caucus/West Russia). � I’m ok with sending the FTR to Egypt, but I highly recommend NOT attacking Ukraine…just be prepared for a possible stack in Ukraine.



  • @Mallery29:

    Why I feel staacking Burma is bad on UK1:
    UK: 4inf vs. Japan: 4inf/2art/1tank/1FTR at Burma with potential of BB shore shot (from Japan)
    Japan then uses the rest of its forces to hit the two Chinese territories w/o the FTR (inf/art/FTR/Bomber at Yunan, 5inf/FTR at Anwhei). Sure, you give up Kwangsi to one American, but Burma will fall. �� Any counter on UK2 at Burma will be destroyed by a second wave of Japanese troops on J2(2trans bought J1). �� If you are going to move the Russian FTR to Egypt, I would just pull out of Burma and do what you say about moving troops to India. �� You’ll be in a better position to defend/attack (keep your inf fodder to protect your tank buys) without stacking Burma(your transports will get sacked eventually, but your reinforcements will provide you a solid wall against the Japanese . �� If you send the FTR to Egypt, I’m not so sure about hitting Ukraine (likely an attack will fail losing lots of Russians, better to hold the line at Caucus/West Russia). �� I’m ok with sending the FTR to Egypt, but I highly recommend NOT attacking Ukraine…just be prepared for a possible stack in Ukraine.

    Ok, cool enough, I forgot that the sea area on FIC includes Burma too, so forces from Japan could attack Burma with those from FIC. But, it doesn’t change much, we can just leave 1 INF on Burma, and then let 4 INF stay on India, buy 3 Tank, land 1 possible FTR on India after E-Indies battle + UK bomber goes to Caucasus.

    I would adjust then, what I get from Egypt with the transport. I would get the Artillery to India with the transport, and rather blitz 2 spaces from Egypt to Iran with the UK Tank. That way, UK gets another unit, which is the artillery, directly to India while the tank is right behind there on Iran, and can strike Burma on UK2. So basically, if Japanese go into Burma with 4 INF, 2 Art, 1 Tank, then it’s not gonna be good for them on UK2 where you can strike back with 4 INF, 4 Tank, possibly 1 FTR, 1 Bomber, 1 Art which will also boost 1 INF in attack. And then UK can build another 3 Tanks before it’s J2 turn. Alternatively, UK could buy 1 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank on India and build DD and a Carrier and land FTRs on it on London. London already has 3 FTR there when UK2 starts, since I bought one on UK1.

    1 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank, 1 DD, 1 Carrier = 35 IPC. Which is 3 IPC saved from UK1 + 31 IPC income + 1 IPC from taking New Guinea on UK1.

    Yes, it’s a possibility not to strike Ukraine, or another tank can be added into an attack since Russian FTR has to go to Egypt. But that would leave Russia with 2 Artilleries and 1 Tank safe only, after Germany takes Ukraine back, so it’s tough to decide if Russia should attack Ukraine since FTR goes to Egypt, but it has to go there, it gives UK so many advantages when Egypt is safe.

    I would let the Russian INF I have from Kazakhstan which I moved to the area with the U.S FTR on it on R1, take the Kwantung on R2 turn, and rather use 2 US INF and FTR to strike back at Yunnan, since Japan can only attack it with 1 INF, and 1 Art, Japan possibly losing that 1 INF, and taking Yunnan with only 1 Art.

    OR

    Make a wall on Sinking with 2 US INF and 1 FTR + 1 Russian INF from Novosibirsk + Russian FTR from Egypt flying to Sinking on R2. That would draw away Japanese FTRs from FIC if Japan wants to attack 3 INF + 2 FTR which is a good force.
    If we make a wall on Sinkiang, a US Bomber should be moved to Alaska, so that on US2 that bomber can join 2 US INF and FTR attacking around in China. Alaska will be protected by 1 US INF, 1 UK INF and 1 UK Tank. US Fleet can also position itself on Iwo Jima on US1.



  • Yeah, I wouldn’t hit Burma if you left your inf in India…that’s all I was saying was to save your inf for India…if you left Burma open, I  probably wouldn’t land troops there anyway, and just give a territory buffer between the two opposing forces…this is where my other thread about the E. Indies complex comes into play whether anybody has done it/had success or failures with it to counter this massive quick buildup in India.

    As for for Ukraine, even with the two tanks at Ukraine and the two FTRs, Ukraine is still a hard battle, so removing a FTR makes it even more risky…still do-able but I’m not going to hold my breath in expecting the German FTR to be killed or Ukraine to fall.

    I don’t think the Russian guy in China is needed. Once you do your massive buildup in India, Japan isn’t going to advance right away to go for India (IMHO, the aggressor usually fails and the defender can overrun), so that Chinese territory is just going to get sacked. You are better off either reinforcing the Russian front, staying still,  or sending that guy to India. China would just be a suicide mission for that one Russian guy.



  • @AxisBrutality:

    1. I looks like just taking W.Russia or W.Russia and Ukraine is the safest bet. Although that Moscow FTR need to go to Egypt, in order to be 100% sure that Germany can’t do anything in Egypt, which helps the UK being able to attack the E.Indies fleet. I think it’s a key unit Russia has to “reserve” for the UK on R1 and land back on Moscow or Caucasus on R2. Or else Germany can be tempted to attack Egypt without that Russian FTR and then, UK won’t be able to do anything with E.Indies with just on UK FTR on India, so UK needs both FTR from India and Egypt.

    The advantage of preventing Germany of going after Egypt is pretty obvious but at the same time…

    1. Germany has only 75% odds of winning Egypt - roughly 1 on every four times it will fail and UK will sink the German fleet.
    2. UK only has 64% odds of winning SZ37, or two in three, so this attack is a more riskier than the German one and it basically leaves Africa to the Germans and the Japanese transport on SZ61 left alone.
    3. If Germany attacks Egypt then the UK can at least counter it once and destroy the German armor left there.
    4. If Germany does not attack Egypt then most likely it will create a stack on Libya to pressure Egypt on G2 - and with no UK fleet on the Indian Ocean and a KJF in progress that means that it will be impossible to reinforce Africa from the Germans.
    5. Which may not be a bad thing since it will divert units from the Russian front but at the expense of the UK’s income dropping and Germany turning into a monster.

    See? I’m not entirely convinced of the necessity of Soviet FTR on Egypt… (plus it takes it away from the Russian front) or at least the game can be more interesting without it there.

    1. How about this, I am not saying it’s better than the above strategy, I am just brainstorming. What if Russia takes out Ukraine and Belorussia, and isolate German forces in W.Russia ? It would be kind of fun to do that move just to test out, how that plays out taking out Belorussia and Ukraine, while Germans are isolated i W.Russia.
      There is no way for Germany to take on Moscow or Caucasus with 3 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank but they could strike Arkangelsk, however, Arkangelsk will be reinforced with 2 INF from Evenki. And if they strike Arkangelsk, there will be fewer German forces that can take Leningrad. Germany would have to let 1 German INF stay at W-Russia or else Russian tanks can just blitz through on R2. � It would be interesting to try.

    Ukraine still ranks number one to me because of the destruction inflicted upon the Germans (6 units destroyed) plus it protects Caucasus. If you don’t attack West Russia, then the move is for the Germans to take control of Karelia, without Russia being able to contest it on R2. Belorussia is a nice alternative to the Ukraine but it can still leave the Caucasus vulnerable to a German attack.

    But back to the safe option 1). When Russia does what I argued for, I think we agree, then UK can attack the Japanese E.Indies fleet. Now, I’ve found out how to put more pressure on Japan on FIC, so that Japan has to commit most of their forces to defending FIC. With E-Indies fleet gone and dead, UK can move 3 INF from India to Burma, now UK has 4 INF on Burma.

    Besides 4 UK INF on Burma, UK can move 1 INF from Iran to India. UK Transport from India should get a tank from Egypt to India. Then UK can buy 3 Tanks, 1 FTR + 1 INF or save 3 IPC, but UK should buy 3 Tanks and 1 FTR. � Put those 3 Tanks on India, that makes UK having 4 Tanks on India and 1 INF + 4 INF on Burma. � � Move 1 INF from Syria to Egypt, so that UK has 2 INF + 1 Artillery there. � 1 FTR which has been bought, should be put on London. � Whatever is left of UK Fleet after the attack on E-Indies should land back on India if any UK FTR survived.

    And finally, a UK bomber should fly to Caucasus, making it able to strike FIC on UK2 with 4 Tanks, 4 INF and possibly 1 FTR if it survives after the E-Indies attack.

    So the whole thing is extremely connected to what UK can do based on what Russia has done for the UK on R1, which should be flying a Russian FTR to Egypt, that’s all Russia has to do, and then it’s UK showtime:)

    Nasty. Question is, who does Russia defend from Germany?



  • will also boost 1 INF in attack. And then UK can build another 3 Tanks before it’s J2 turn. Alternatively, UK could buy 1 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank on India and build DD and a Carrier and land FTRs on it on London. London already has 3 FTR there when UK2 starts, since I bought one on UK1.
    1 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank, 1 DD, 1 Carrier = 35 IPC. Which is 3 IPC saved from UK1 + 31 IPC income + 1 IPC from taking New Guinea on UK1.

    Any UK1-2 buys will be immediately sunk regardless of your planes on the carrier. � Germany has too many subs/planes to sack any UK fleet, especially since I would buy a bomber/SS on G1, and one SS on G2. � The rest goes to inf/art. � If you save money on UK turns, a UK3 drop may be possible, but w/o US assistance in a KJF strat, the UK will have to have a lot saved up to drop on UK4 to make a worthy stand. � In KGF, you could drop UK3 w/o any problems (US3, US ships arrive).
    And taking New Guinea is a waste of troops for India. � Eliminate the E. Indies fleet then NCM the transport w/2inf for a UK2 drop off in India. �


  • TripleA

    ukraine or bust all day everyday.



  • @Hobbes:

    @AxisBrutality:

    1. I looks like just taking W.Russia or W.Russia and Ukraine is the safest bet. Although that Moscow FTR need to go to Egypt, in order to be 100% sure that Germany can’t do anything in Egypt, which helps the UK being able to attack the E.Indies fleet. I think it’s a key unit Russia has to “reserve” for the UK on R1 and land back on Moscow or Caucasus on R2. Or else Germany can be tempted to attack Egypt without that Russian FTR and then, UK won’t be able to do anything with E.Indies with just on UK FTR on India, so UK needs both FTR from India and Egypt.

    The advantage of preventing Germany of going after Egypt is pretty obvious but at the same time…

    1. Germany has only 75% odds of winning Egypt - roughly 1 on every four times it will fail and UK will sink the German fleet.
    2. UK only has 64% odds of winning SZ37, or two in three, so this attack is a more riskier than the German one and it basically leaves Africa to the Germans and the Japanese transport on SZ61 left alone.Â
    3. If Germany attacks Egypt then the UK can at least counter it once and destroy the German armor left there.
    4. If Germany does not attack Egypt then most likely it will create a stack on Libya to pressure Egypt on G2 - and with no UK fleet on the Indian Ocean and a KJF in progress that means that it will be impossible to reinforce Africa from the Germans.
    5. Which may not be a bad thing since it will divert units from the Russian front but at the expense of the UK’s income dropping and Germany turning into a monster.

    See? I’m not entirely convinced of the necessity of Soviet FTR on Egypt… (plus it takes it away from the Russian front) or at least the game can be more interesting without it there.

    Nasty. Question is, who does Russia defend from Germany?

    –----------------------------------------------

    I see your point regarding German odds at taking Egypt, but I’ve seen that Japan is pretty sick like hell if that E-Indies fleet is not taken out. That extra BB, Carrier and 2 FTR are brutal and enables Japan to strike all 3 U.S. territories in China, and I don’t like that. I’ve played it out twice, and each time Japan destroys everything in Asia if the E-Indies fleet survives.

    On the other hand, if we destroy the E-Indies fleet + go for a ground combination as I mentioned, then Japan will have problems with FIC which would be under constant threat. USA can on US2 choose to take Phil or Borneo, + US forces do survive in Tibet, 2 INF + FTR, so at least US has some forces there, which 1 or 2 Russian INF can support, making a wall on either Tibet or Sinkiang. It’s a nice extra force + 5 Russian INF further north-east + India building forces.

    I chose to build 1 FTR on London, rest which is 3 Tanks on India. Saved 3 IPC. I would take New Guinea with 2 Australian INF, so UK should have 35 IPC to buy for on UK2. On UK2 and definitely on UK3, UK needs a fleet, which can survive, extremely important, they should be supported by U.S ships built on Eastern US. That US fleet in the Pacific will already give Japan enough nightmare that USA can pretty much built most of the forces on Eastern U.S.

    So Russia has to hold for 2 rounds at least, it should not be a problem, London can send 2 FTRs over to Arkangel to support Russians.
    And bomber goes to Caucasus on UK1. And since UK will build tanks and other units on India, it’s easy to strike back on Syria if any Germans land there or to support Caucasus if really critical.

    I don’t know if you attack U.S. ships on eastern U.S on G1, because if you do, then UK ships on Eastern Canada survives. Either way, U.S or UK ships will survive. UK can send to Morocco 1 Tank or U.S. can dump in 4 units on Western Africa.



  • Better to take on the US ships w/2 subs vs. the UK DD/Trans…better value for kill (plus it setsback the US).  Besides, what is one UK DD going to do against the remaining SS/Luftwaffe…it will be 3 turns before the UK can muster a fleet in the Atlantic.

    Honestly, even if I lost the Egypt FTR, I’d still go for E. Indies.  Mutual destruction is all I care about. And if I lose the Egypt FTR, there’s still no guranatee Egypt will fall.  Germany is not going to sack the Bomber to take Egypt.  UK can reinforce Egypt enough with 2inf w/o hurting the Indian defense.  More resources poured into Egypt by Germany, the better for Russia.



  • Just finished all the calculations for the possible R1 attacks and combat results and then use them to calculate a possible G1 counterattack on West Russia (why WRus? check this:http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=25203.0).

    The Soviets have 4 ‘safe’ openings for R1, listed in an order of low to highest risk of a German WRus counter, assuming average losses while conquering WRus (2-3 INF)

    1. West Russia
    2. West Russia and Belorussia
    3. West Russia and Baltic States
    • With these 3 options Caucasus may fall to the Germans on G1 but the Soviets can send the Moscow FTR to Egypt
    1. West Russia and Ukraine - no FTR to Egypt but Caucasus remains in Soviet possession

    And there’s also the ‘risk’ openings. With those the odds are either low or WRus falls on G1:
    5) West Russia, Ukraine and Belorussia (65% odds of all 3 attacks succeeding)
    6) West Russia and Finland (West Russia will be crushed on G1)
    7) West Russia and any other two territories other than Ukraine and Belorussia. (low odds of all attacks winning, WRus G1 crush)
    😎 Not attacking West Russia

    Now, the question is, which one of the first four to choose? Send the fighter to Egypt and most likely Germany will take Caucasus or/and stack Ukraine on G1, giving her 4 IPC and forcing the Soviets to abandon Karelia… decisions, decisions…



  • @Hobbes:

    Just finished all the calculations for the possible R1 attacks and combat results and then use them to calculate a possible G1 counterattack on West Russia (why WRus? check this:http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=25203.0).

    The Soviets have 4 ‘safe’ openings for R1, listed in an order of risk of a German WRus counter, assuming average losses while conquering WRus (2-3 INF)

    1. West Russia
    2. West Russia and Belorussia
    3. West Russia and Baltic States
    • With these 3 options Caucasus may fall to the Germans on G1 but the Soviets can send the Moscow FTR to Egypt
    1. West Russia and Ukraine - no FTR to Egypt but Caucasus remains in Soviet possession

    And there’s also the ‘risk’ openings. With those the odds are either low or WRus falls on G1:
    5) West Russia, Ukraine and Belorussia (65% odds of all 3 attacks succeeding)
    6) West Russia and Finland (West Russia will be crushed on G1)
    7) West Russia and any other two territories other than Ukraine and Belorussia. (low odds of all attacks winning, WRus G1 crush)
    😎 Not attacking West Russia

    Now, the question is, which one of the first four to choose? Send the fighter to Egypt and most likely Germany will take Caucasus or/and stack Ukraine on G1, giving her 4 IPC and forcing the Soviets to abandon Karelia… decisions, decisions…

    Let’s introduce option 5) which is an extention of option 4) Take West Russia and Ukraine AND send FTR to Egypt. This is the best thing Russia can do.

    Ukraine can be attacked with 3 INF, 1 Art, 3 Tank, 1 FTR, that should be more than enough to take it.
    With this attack there is 85,6% chance according to calc, that Russia will win this, and have at least FTR alive, most probably 1 Tank taking Ukraine. Basically Russia has to sacrifice 1 more tank than usual in order to ensure that UK can have a lot of fun and great options which will help also Russia.



    1. West Russia and Ukraine - no FTR to Egypt but Caucasus remains in Soviet possession

    Now, the question is, which one of the first four to choose? Send the fighter to Egypt and most likely Germany will take Caucasus or/and stack Ukraine on G1, giving her 4 IPC and forcing the Soviets to abandon Karelia… decisions, decisions…

    –-----------------------------

    Let’s introduce option 5) which is an extention of option 4) Take West Russia and Ukraine AND send FTR to Egypt. This is the best thing Russia can do.

    Ukraine can be attacked with 3 INF, 1 Art, 3 Tank, 1 FTR, that should be more than enough to take it.
    With this attack there is 85,6% chance according to calc, that Russia will win this, and have at least FTR alive, most probably 1 Tank taking Ukraine. Basically Russia has to sacrifice 1 more tank than usual in order to ensure that UK can have a lot of fun and great options which will help also Russia.



  • Hobbes, are those risk from high to low or low to high German counter? I’m assuming its high to low.

    I would think Baltic would be the worst one of the four to do since you can get all tanks and most units into a Baltic attack/staging in Ukraine for Germany.


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