HBG Sea Mine, Research, Radar, SS Markers & Land Mine [Acrylic Markers]


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Like the other thread dealing with Rail Stations/ markers, this thread hopes to craft basic rules for these pieces.

    Sea Mine/Mine:
    Cost 6 IPC built and placed in sea zones adjacent from controlled land areas/straights.
    Note: You must leave a surface naval unit left in the sea zone for that turn to place the Sea Mine. Only one Sea Mine in an area can be build.
    The connecting sea zone must not touch any enemy controlled area, but can touch a Pro-you Neutral or strict Neutral ( example: the sea zone between London and Belgium)
    Examples: English Channel, Danish Straights, Sea of Japan ( between Japan and Manchuria)
    Enemy Naval units entering or attempting to pass thru this area get hit with 3 rolls like AA guns hitting on a 1. If you build the Sea Mine while enemy naval units are in Sea Zone, they can move out and avoid the sea mine attack.
    Each hit registered reduces the Sea Mine capacity by one, and when it scores 3 hits is removed. ( obviously over a series of turns).
    Regardless of whether a hit is scored or not, it does not impede enemy naval movement if they choose to pass into another sea zone.

    Land Mine Token: same idea as above, land unit required for deployment. Note: No limit on deployment.

    Research Tokens: These supplement the optional technology rules. Once a decision to explore Technology is made, that player places a token to designate where the Research is taking place. The enemy can bomb ( SBR) this area for up to 10 IPC, the first 5 IPC negating the Research spend. This effectively stops the Technology roll until IPC’s are spent and repaired back to zero damage.

    Radar Tokens:
    Cost 12 IPC, placed only in original controlled land areas
    These installations improve the defense during SBR allowing interceptors to defend at +1
    They also boost the defense of Fighters or Fighter-Bombers +1 in normal combat
    They can also scramble planes in the normal manner even if the area they fly from does not contain an Air Base.
    Lastly, they can allow scramble of Fighters and Fighter-Bombers into adjacent sea zones that the enemy chooses to enter or pass thru on his turn. In this event, one round of combat occurs between planes and enemy naval units.

    Waffen SS markers:
    The German player may designate any land unit once per turn a bonus of +1 in combat ( attack or defense) and place the token under unit. He must pay 1 IPC to do this.
    The bonus stays just with that unit and may not be transferred. If the unit is destroyed it can never be rebuilt as a Waffen SS unit.
    Secondly, the unit may move 2 spaces from that point ( even if it used to move one space)–- Reason: Waffen SS units had their own supply trains better suited than Heer units.

    The total number of SS Tokens that can be raised is limited by the initial inventory of these units.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    By these rules, if I build into a seazone that contains mines.

    What happens?


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Ships built in these zones may move out and avoid Sea Mine rolls.

    The rule is only for entering or passing thru the zones.



  • @Imperious:

    Waffen SS markers:
    The German player may designate any land unit once per turn a bonus of +1 in combat ( attack or defense) and place the token under unit. He must pay 1 IPC to do this.
    The bonus stays just with that unit and may not be transferred. If the unit is destroyed it can never be rebuilt as a Waffen SS unit.
    Secondly, the unit may move 2 spaces from that point ( even if it used to move one space)–- Reason: Waffen SS units had their own supply trains better suited than Heer units.

    The total number of SS Tokens that can be raised is limited by the initial inventory of these units.

    Waffen SS Markers are used to designate Waffen SS Units, either infantry, mechanized infantry or Tanks/Armor. Cost: +1 IPC , Movement: +1 and Attack/Defense: +1

    Maybe Germany should start the game with some Waffen SS Units, 4 Waffen SS Units of players choice.

    They should also be a limit how many they could produe/build each turn, my suggestion would be 2 units, they should also be able to produce/build these Units throughout the War/Game, or as long Russia do not control German Territories.

    German Waffen SS Bonus Units :
    Since many of the Waffen SS soldiers where foreigners volunteers, especially from the Nordic countries, Benelux and Croatia. Germany should receive 3 Infantry Units for Free, at No Cost each Turn/Round, as long as Germany Control Holland/Belgium, Denmark, Norway and Yugoslavia.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Maybe Germany should start the game with some Waffen SS Units, 4 Waffen SS Units of players choice.

    In the early game, this may prove too strong. Also, in spring 1940 they did have some Waffen SS units but they were still growing from cadre status and not the huge powerful divisions of 1942-45

    Balancing the game is most important so starting with one and getting one each turn is a small measure against losing balance since nobody else gets this benifit.

    They should also be a limit how many they could produe/build each turn, my suggestion would be 2 units, they should also be able to produce/build these Units throughout the War/Game, or as long Russia do not control German Territories.

    There is it is one per turn, and destroyed SS units are not to be replaced ( their is a fixed number of these)

    Why do you see a restriction whether the Soviets control or not control German areas?



  • @Imperious:

    Maybe Germany should start the game with some Waffen SS Units, 4 Waffen SS Units of players choice.

    In the early game, this may prove too strong. Also, in spring 1940 they did have some Waffen SS units but they were still growing from cadre status and not the huge powerful divisions of 1942-45

    Balancing the game is most important so starting with one and getting one each turn is a small measure against losing balance since nobody else gets this benifit.

    They should also be a limit how many they could produe/build each turn, my suggestion would be 2 units, they should also be able to produce/build these Units throughout the War/Game, or as long Russia do not control German Territories.

    There is it is one per turn, and destroyed SS units are not to be replaced ( their is a fixed number of these)

    Why do you see a restriction whether the Soviets control or not control German areas?

    Because quite many where volunteers foreigners, and when they saw Germany started to lose, they did not volunteer in such big numbers anymore.

    This is great reading:
    http://www.feldgrau.com/main1.php?ID=7

    http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=307


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Because quite many where volunteers foreigners, and when they saw Germany started to lose, they did not volunteer in such big numbers anymore.

    That is more true in the late war and those divisions are not represented by tokens. What is represented is the first and best crack divisions. By the wars end as many of 25% of the whermacht forces got designated at “SS” but it was in name only. The 1st, 2nd, 3rd Waffen SS and a few others were mostly Germans trained before the war and as loses mounted they opened the units to foreign soldiers.



  • @Imperious:

    Because quite many where volunteers foreigners, and when they saw Germany started to lose, they did not volunteer in such big numbers anymore.

    That is more true in the late war and those divisions are not represented by tokens. What is represented is the first and best crack divisions. By the wars end as many of 25% of the whermacht forces got designated at “SS” but it was in name only. The 1st, 2nd, 3rd Waffen SS and a few others were mostly Germans trained before the war and as loses mounted they opened the units to foreign soldiers.

    Maybe my suggestions is to powerful, and I agree it has to be balanced.
    Many of the foreign volunteers SS Divisions where as good as the “truly German” divisions.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_SS_Panzer_Division_Wiking


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Yes in cases right, but by wars end alot of these never got the same replacements of equipment. After combat like say the Budapest Offensive of 1945, these units got spent.

    Basically from Kursk on, the Waffen units saw a slow decline in capability due to shortages. Hitler was more interested in “representing” that he had the same divisions and downgrading them in an attempt to refill other units again due to lack of replacements.

    Tanks and men kept declining and these divisions shrank and hardly represented their former status.


  • 2018

    IL - Why do you want to limit mines to one per area?  AA guns are not limited like this.  I was thinking about Russia using this as Germany approaches her cities, but I would rather use the $6 to buy infantry who can take a hit and can also fire back repeatedly.  At the most I would spend $6 on taking out 3 German infantry.  If I can place more mines and possibly get a chance at hitting tanks or artillery then it is more appealing to me, and I am forced to choose between that risk (of not hitting any) and placing more Russian infantry.

    In the sea it makes more sense because any ship you hit is an expensive unit comparable to one mine.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    IL - Why do you want to limit mines to one per area?

    Glitching. I see that it would stifle sea movement which players would make “nuke zones” of these mines and blockade sections of the map. The Axis would be particularly at a disadvantage.

    Air units flying over for SBR or combat constitutes a small fraction of player forces. Most of the time he can avoid the AA guns and just attack elsewhere.

    Sea Mines can be used to block movement entirely, which is not good for the game.

    On land perhaps this issue is less so, so perhaps multiple land mine zones would work.


  • 2018

    I think you are right about the sea mines.  Probably good to limit them to one per sea zone then, but still worthwhile as they can cause some valuable damage.

    What then regarding land mines?  Should there be any limit at all?  I think sea zones having more staying power as ships would continually move through the zone throughout the game.  Land mines would defend against an approach by an enemy and be used prior to battles, which if you lost the battle the mines would be removed.  Only if the enemy withdraws and then attacks again would the mines get another shot.

    Second question: Do you think land mines should get more than three rolls?  It might make them realistically more appealing and cost effective for a defense as opposed to just buying infantry?  4 rolls per mine?


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    In making these kinds of rules i find its best to keep the same system as OOB units, just plug in something different but within the system.

    Costing 12 or 6 creates similarity with OOB ( installations and AA guns)

    The combat effects are just modeled after AA guns: what we have is AA guns of the sea and land, which is why the rules are so similar.

    People tend to accept House rules if the ideas seem like something that might have already been designed.

    Why do you see a 6 IPC land mine with 3 rolls @1 being replaced with 4 rolls @1?

    I think it is no issue to allow multiple land mines, like AA guns.

    I also think we agree that multiple sea mines is a bad idea.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    I made edits on the original idea. ( check first post)

    Anyone have some ideas on these rules? Changes?


  • 2018

    Originally I thought you were advocating for a limit of one mine for land as you were with the sea zones.  Sea zones made sense, but not land mines.  If you would allow for more than one land mine then it makes more sense.  Otherwise why spend $6 to roll three dice @1 only one time when you can roll two dice @2 ( two infantry) multiple times, and take hits?  The difference between the land mine and AA guns is that even with one hit you are taking out an aircraft which is worth it.  Odds are with the mine you are taking out an infantry, maybe two, but probably none - economically your are going in the whole most of the time.  But the possibility of hitting an aircraft with AA guns makes the three rolls a better deal, both economically and defensively to win the battle.  If a mine were 4 rolls @1 then the mine becomes worth the investment by the defender.  You spent $6, good chance of hitting at least once, possibly two, and on rare occasion three!  At least the investment becomes more appealing, but still risky because in the end you may still wish you had spent the money on infantry.

    I am just thinking out loud here so feel free to push back on my logic.  It has been known to be off sometimes, at least that is what my wife says.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    We agree here. Land can have more than one land mine, sea zones can have only one mine due to the cost of what is getting hit, plus glitching.

    Do you see any changes so far? Before you commented on land mines getting 4 shots for 6 ipc. Why do you feel that is better?


  • 2018

    I thought four rolls @1 for the reason I mentioned earlier:

    Choice #1: $6 for mine = 3 rolls @1 prior to battle
    Choice #2: $6 for 2 infantry = 2 rolls @2 each round, can take hits

    “The difference between the land mine and AA guns is that even with one hit you are taking out an aircraft which is worth it.  Odds are with the mine you are taking out an infantry, maybe two, but probably none - economically your are going in the hole most of the time.  But the possibility of hitting an aircraft with AA guns makes the three rolls a better deal, both economically and defensively to win the battle.”

    Thanks for you thoughts IL, by the way HBG just posted their rules for these on their website.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    by the way HBG just posted their rules for these on their website.

    where? link? Cant find it.


  • 2017 2016 2015 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10


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