UK barbarossa strategies

@theROCmonster:

Still don’t understand why you always buy 10 transports germany 2 if you aren’t going sealion. I’d literally beat you everygame jen. Russia would be so strong it’s ridiculous. so what if you can take lenningrad easily. I almost always give it up anyways. No reason to try and hold it if germany can just go right by it and take moscow and then come back and take lenningrad.

Karelia, Novogorod, Arkhangelsk, Nentsia, Baltic States and if you want Vyborg can all be hit on Round 3.  13 Transports (or even 11) means a very sizable force dropped. I like to hit Karelia if empty, since it is worth money, Novgorod for the double whammy of one less complex and one NO (and money!), Arkhangelsk to block a blitz over to Nenetsia and drop the most in Nenetsia.  Usually this means you can blitz behind the Russians and sap their strength without giving them Mongolia.

Better still, learned this week that Japan can reinforce a German held Russian territory adjacent to Mongolia, so you just opened the door for them with one tank (or more if you need it.)  The added benefit is no Russian is going to annoy Japan with his 18 infantry anymore, now he has to bee line for home.

Most russian players do have mech and a few tanks, given you invested g1 and g2 money in naval. you give up romania and those 3 spots for +9 NO for russia. given that russia does not have nov, he should be making mech/armor at the least off volgograd.

you are dropping the 13 starting mech/armor, which is not hard for russia to match.  Russia does have to fight for archangel for his +5.

Usually I see german naval, I buy artillery and mech only. then I see more german naval I buy all mech and 1 tank. leave nov empty. you come drop into nov. I give you funny look, take 3 adjacent germany territories for my bonus, buy infantry / artillery for russia and ukraine. I shove enough to hold romania and the rest in bessarabia so I can move back if I need to. The russian mech moves to western ukraine. Then I stack hungary and since I don’t have archangel allies fly in their air.

meanwhile russia is pumping 10 units out and with the bonus money I can get mech/armor in the two minors.  If you make a run for russia allies fly in from hungary. Since everyone acts after germany and before italy, it is easy to retreat when russia has to or advance.

This is a pretty simple concept. I mean maybe you play people who only buy infantry with russia, but most experienced players don’t.

Most likely USA will get the bombers to sink it or provide naval for uk so he can just make 5 transports and start unloading.

In any case russia banking off axis territories is not the best move for you. Granted you made UK buy 10 ground uk1 and uk2 instead of a minor on egypt or naval or what have you. those units will still find use later on.

europe becomes very messy for axis instead of taking london and then pushing russia back or instead of advancing on russia the traditional way where you move up and russia moves back and makes less and less each round. you give russia a nice source of income.

not to mention 3 transports usually achieves your goal anyway.

Also count the spaces. germany takes 5 moves to reach russia. shuffling to novgorod then marching to russia is 4 moves. you spent all this money to advance 1 whole space. Very similar to a romania major IC, it is a suboptimal way of doing things given that ICs and transports don’t attack and typically shuffle infantry/artillery which has less mobility than mech/armor and it is a target for air units.

The fact that you win games doing things like this is very disappointing. I mean someone did do this to me when he saw he had 33% on london only, it was interesting, but it did not work out for him. You can’t dump truck full boatloads into nov and kick russia out of original axis territories. Italy does not make enough money to do africa play and make enough men to fight russia (he has to pick) and if you make italy buy ground forces off the bat you give up the african opportunity, which is the whole point of doing a sea lion buy.

Here is how it went down. he dump trucked into nov. I pushed to romania. Turn after he took the finland/norway guys off vyborg brought it to germany, but russia moved to hungary anyway and allies reinforced it. Germany build up even more ground forces, he also had to make another carrier or I’d hit with usa and then follow up with uk. russia fell back to romania and had lots of income made mech/armor. when germany kicked russia out of europe, russians had tanks/mech to take back all the spots germany blitzed around for the spots back. It took a long time for him to get the other minor industrial complexes and hold it.

I bought bombers usa 1 and flew them into london. usa 2 i pulled all the pacific air to central usa and bought carriers. After that I went almost full pacific. All that naval did was sit in sz 110. uk/russia worked africa, egypt minor went down subs convoyed 97, air units from hungary went to malta so no 1 destroyer scramble BS could come from italy, uk was only using 2 transports to dump men off london for awhile, shutting italy down is my priority as uk.

In the end Russia was making more than 30 (+19 from africa +2 persia) while uk was making 40 (28 +5 + greece holland normandy). italy making 0-5 ipc. germany could not make income off of normandy southern france yugoslavia greece or norway (making 73 ipc+).

It just took too long before germany could stack up next to russia, because the extra income meant russia could have a higher attack and it takes time before you get more use out of 10 transports compared to mech. Long story short, KJF was before moscow. those 5 bombers of usa traveled to around and went to russia some time ago and hit small japanese infantry stacks. Japan was screwed around round 8 and 10 usa fighters made their way toward russia from the pacific. they landed round 10 and usa split income on 10.

UK showed up a bit sooner. It took awhile for the units that kicked russia out of romania to merge with the infantry in nov, because germany had two seperate stacks that had to merge in order to stack up against russia. russia was making good money for a long time.
~
Point is 3 transports a dd and carrier is all you really need and you should win with that. Axis is the favorite.

No, most Russian’s cant get to Romania, Hungary and Poland.  You think I’m retreating all my units from the front???

Germany SHOULD have the following at the end of their 3rd turn:

• Karelia
• Novgorod
• Arkhangelsk
• Nenetsia
• Baltic States
• East Poland
• Bessarabia (?) - if needed
• Vybord (?) - if needed

Russian Armor/Mech should be nuetered in either Belarus or N. Ukraine - which is primarily where those units are on Round 2.

Yes, most “experienced” players will toss in a few mech and a few armor to make up for the deficiency.  Most “experienced” players dont suicide run stacks of Russian tanks against stacks of Germany infantry and armor - especially with Italian reinforcements (I don’t like to toss my Italians into the garbage, they serve a much higher purpose taking land so Germany can land fighters there to reinforce later in the game.)

So meanwhile, Russia is pumping out 6 or 7 units (if they go all infantry) with their lack of funds while Germany is pumping out 20ish units a round.

American bombers, left picking their noses in Washington have to wait for Round 4 to even get in range - by then it’s already over for Russia. They’re packing it up and running for home, their last best hope is to somehow magically hold off the Japanese, Italians and Germans long enough for planes to come in - but wait, they can’t send them through the north anymore, that route was cut off!  Oh they die fast and painlessly!  (Since England pulled all their planes back to London in response to “Operation Stalking Horse” where I had Rommel pull a Patton and command over inflated balloons.)

Do I see a lot of the “mech only” Russias?  Yea.  On the off chance THAT happens, Japan drops a major in Korea and goes 6 Mech, 4 Arm a round until they are crushed so taht Germany can win the war.  (America ALWAYS goes 100% Pacific when they see Japan pull that maneuver, meaning they are not really much help in the Atlantic.)

Germany SHOULD have the following at the end of their 3rd turn:

• Karelia
• Novgorod
• Arkhangelsk
• Nenetsia
• Baltic States
• East Poland
• Bessarabia (?) - if needed
• Vybord (?) - if needed

Yes this is true.

But how many units are you dropping into novgorod? How did you setup your germany. In order for UK to believe you are hitting london, you buy transports right and you have to have men in germany, where are you getting enough forces to take back romania? you can’t dump all your mech / armor into novgorod and expect germany ground to move into hungary and hold it. you don’t have enough guys for that. what the hell  are you talking about?

italy giving up in the mediterrean to make ground forces is just asking to get convoyed out of the game even sooner.

I edited my above post instead of reposting to include an example game.
~
As far as a typical game goes. Axis does not do africa play = allies win. Japan does not take calcutta = allies win. It is simple really.

The longer italy makes income and does not get convoyed to 0 from sz 97, the longer before uk can do something against germany.

The closer japan is to victory in the pacific the more usa has to commit to the pacific. This is not rocket science.

if you want to keep russia from holding romania, you are not going to get full use out of your 10 transports on g3.

Cow I would love to play against you and show you what 50 ground units for Italy can do. It is really easy for italy to get 40+ units.

UK sinks 97 always (barring lucky dice). there is no fly everything into uk BS anymore. allies can actually do attacks now and roll dice and have fun. There is no automatic axis wins everygame bs anymore, allies can actually do stuff now.

russia has 19 inf 8 mech 5 artillery 1 tank 2 aa guns in range of romania, usually all stacked in eastern poland. +3 more mech if he bought mech on novgorod round 1 usually artillery goes in ukraine and the rest is whatever usually mech.

For the allies to believe you are doing some kind of london play, you drop guys on scotland on g2, something is amiss if you don’t.

if your armor is in germany, yeah you have enough to kill eastern poland all he can get is 19 inf 4 mech 2 art and 2 tanks 2 aa gun 2 fighter 1 tactical (+3 more mech if he bought mech round 1 off ukraine for some reason).

usually you have 16 inf 3 art (depends on yugoslavia casualties and I am going to assume you skip greece or italy took greece), sometimes 3 mech from france if they survived.

Sure I will assume russia doesn’t have enough to stack up assuming you setup right. He’ll have to be in western ukraine and belarus. you going to drop enough to hold novgorod that turn without russia moving into eastern poland??? Nope. Then again I did not calc full mech / bomber buy from germany.

I will tell you this though, to keep russia from stacking eastern poland you need more than 3 average attacker units left. This was a fast game, germany needs his air more than russia.

Cow I would love to play against you and show you what 50 ground units for Italy can do. It is really easy for italy to get 40+ units.

how many rounds does it take before you get convoyed out of sz 97? it don’t make me long for uk.

I still say that axis is the slight favorite for many reasons, but this is not one of them.

The only thing transports does is make UK buy 10 inf on round 2.

3 transports does the job of getting nov. you hold baltic states round 2 and move your big stack to novgorod round 3. It is the same result with more ground units and less transports.

you may think you will take russia sooner with 100 ipc total in naval purchases, but that is just silly logic.

Also people play their opponents more than they follow a set strategy. getting convoyed in 97 sucks hardcore, puts axis out of a country. If germany helps you, you can keep exchanging till round 7 if usa goes full PAC. The best way to stop this is to take egypt.

So basically, this is similar to a Sealion strategy in that if Germany goes Barbarossa on G1, G2, Allies need to hit Italy hard with Taranto or something.  What I’ve noticed is that when Axis do an early attack like a G1, G2, J1, J2, Allies must punch back immediately with a counter-gambit.

If Sealion, then hit the Med, MiddleEast and Scandinavia hard.
If an early Barbarossa, then it seems like the same.

I’ll tell you what, I’ve noticed the 18inf in the Siberia is a key here.  I’m currently playtesting to see how this affects the whole game.  I methodically use those 18inf to take Korea and Manchuria by rounds 3 and 4 and march them down south in ignored.  Japan always has to attack and get rid of them, losing tempo of at least a round if not 2.  This of course allows India and the Pac Allies to survive and regather themselves every time.  Hasn’t let me down yet.

What does this have to do with the Euro side??? EVERYTHING.  Why???  B/c on a normal game where those 18inf, 2AA are moved to Moscow, they can get there by round 6 (6inf) or round 7 (all 18inf, 2AA).  That means that any strategy that the Allies come up with must revolve around holding off the EuroAxis from Moscow til round 6 or 7.  If the Allies can do this then its lights out for Axis.  Moscow will be heavily defended and Paris and Rome will be in Allied hands or pushing the door down there by that time.

BTW with Russia I always buy a combination of infantry, art and tanks every round so that by round 5 or so I have a stack of infantry, some art and 15+ tanks to counterattack with, stalling the EuroAxis further from Moscow.  Mech and planes from UKIndia and Australia is a must and very helpful.  I’ve even flown planes in from the US to help defend!!!

Actually I’m testing to see if I can hold off the EuroAxis WITHOUT the 18inf, 2AA.  It seems that I can and if not, it is very close.  If I can do this, then the 18inf goes towards Japan.  Japan can be neutralized and the EuroAxis run out of steam.  If not, then at least I know the 18inf will hold off the Euro Axis and the US can invest more on the Pac side to keep pressure on Japan through the SPacific route etc.  Of course the UK must do its part and build in SAfrica and a reestablish its navy which it can do by round 3-4 ready to shuck a ton of material over, preparing a strong second front.

This is why I believe the game is slightly Allied favored- NOT Axis.  People who claim Axis advantage are not playing Alies as effieciently and cooperatively as they possibly can.  Coordination is huge for the Allies.  This is how they win.

The reason why it is so hard to discuss this sort of thing is because 1) we don’t know how how many air units make it out of G1 in tact and if you do both normandy and france the possibility of france cutting into mech/armor increases. 2) 109 or 110 being sunk changes what medit sea looks like. 3) if you don’t scramble 97 italy has a difficult time killing a carrier destroyer cruiser 2 fighters on his own, usually germany kills that for him when you don’t scramble. Should you scramble that is -1 fighter for germany, because usually you lose but you kill the carrier dd cruiser and 1 fighter at the least and uk lands the rest of his air n malta.

Then there other variables you got to deal with.

like did the dd in 96 hit, french dd and cruiser in 93 (if italy scrambles he has a difficult time doing greece and sz 93 and can expect to lose his only remaining transport from the malta air should he attack greece). This can lead to germany hitting greece with 5 inf and couple armor.

So lots of things can enable russia to stack eastern poland. Each game is different except low luck games, actually those games fluctuate depending on how much the allies got for bid (I don’t go below 4 so usually I get axis, but the more axis wins low luck games the less inclined people become to bid lower for allies).

Anyway the moral of the story is, russia is not as pathetic as you think. In fact If you spend 100 ipc in naval and russia still cannot attack or hold a territory, no one would want to play allies (start off not at war and then when they are at war they still can’t do anything… how is that fun again?). For low luck games this tends to be the case as far as russia goes :grumbles:, but that is why the bid exists. TA DA, insert magical game balance here.

Also most of the allies wins centers around russia making +19 off of original italian african territories and some form of stall in russia. It is cheesy but without it, screw playing allies, give me axis all day.

18 inf 2 aa guns depends on what japan does. Japan should take india round 3-5, it is a VC and a NO.

This is why I believe the game is slightly Allied favored- NOT Axis.  People who claim Axis advantage are not playing Alies as effieciently and cooperatively as they possibly can.   Coordination is huge for the Allies.  This is how they win

you also stated that japan is not taking calcutta, that is a big difference in gameplay. the 18 infantry and 2 aa guns does not keep japan from taking calcutta. You get korea, you get manchuria with russia. Those are not VCs. Allies still have to defend ANZAC while trying to keep japan from sailing home to dump infantry off of japan… a tall order for someone doing a split income with USA. USA has to go full pacific at some point to stop japan or at the very least MATCH japan’s income.

I say this again. Typically if allies hold onto africa/middle east and india then they win, played enough games to know this. Usually allies can hold onto africa/middle east at the very least and it is a toss up from there, but sometimes they fail and it is GG, unless something crazy happens, like japan sucked all game.

The game is fine as far as dice games go. Axis have to do like a bajillion attacks and should get diced somewhere, seldom do you get more survivors in dice games.

The thing I worry about the most is france defending in league or tournament play… that would be so traumatizing.

funny thing is I only hit one or two times with that aa gun when people do send the tactical in, it is fun to say, “bang.”

You take Calcutta, I take Manila and Shanghai.  Tit for tat.  If you threaten, which I have not seen yet b/c you refuse to play me, then I can easily evacuate/fall back to Russia with a ton of mech and planes to help them.

So you have India, a round later you will either have to deal with the Russian infantry taking Shanghai b/c you want to ignore them and the US will be breathing down neck in the Carolines, more than able to strike HongKong and Manila.  Yes, this will take an 80% effort by US, but if you strike early you are negating that by giving me the cash to do that and invest in Europe earlier than normal.  If you attack the Russian stack, you lose precious land units and you run right back into the loving clutches of the US, who by that time are ready to sack your expansion efforts.

You are not looking past round 4-5 and seeing the consequences.  What about the Barborossa push???  What about it???  They will be able to hold off with British India reinforcements and soon to come a stout Second Front opening (France, Norway, Gibraltar–>Italy)- pick your poison.

Attacking Australia or the Russia is stupid for Japan- it puts them out of position.  I would wholeheartedly invite that foolish move.

play in garg’s tournament. we might pair.

Team Dairy Qryn will traumatize you! Veqryn and I is probably the craziest pair for a game. I don’t know how veqryn plays global, but if it is anything like aa50… I expect a gambit. We play for capitals and VCs. We go all in.

If I get 80% on uk, I’ll take it. If I go barb all I need is greater than 50% odds for me to go for russia, while japan goes for his last VC on his side of the board a the same time even if his odds are like 20%… If one us has the odds to take something we’ll both go back to back for it.

Screw it. :)

Also questioneer, depends on where you take USA fleet. If the bulk of your fleet is off queensland japan can sometimes have a small fleet on japan to ship men. If you are convoying japan, well japan can do a gambit for australia, I have taken anzac over before.

also depends if you are doing full pac or not. Allies players lately are on the KJF train.

After calcutta, all japan has to do is maintain his fame and not wipe, untill germany is ready to attack russia… then japan goes and risks everything (in the event that russia holds by some miracle, it is nice to know japan has a small shot at winning for you in pacific).

Oh, good to see you break down and play PBF with us peasants.  We’ll have a good time breaking down your game also. :wink:

So with Questioneer’s move the Russians go to Buryatia R1, then Amur R2, then Korea R3.  Now suppose America has a bunch of fighters in Hawaii ready to land in Korea on round 3.  Killing 2AA, 18 infantry, and a half dozen fighters will be very costly for Japan but they certainly don’t want those fighters going off to Yenisey USA4 and then on to Moscow USA5.  So I guess that means that Japan MUST kill the Russians round 2 or 3.  Could they be doing that and India crush at the same time?  If they declare war and don’t kill the russians, the Americans could land.  Also their planes can’t be up north and in Kwangsi at the same time.

No Cow wants to ignore them altogether.  My argument is that you have to deal with them sooner or later.  Like I said, take Calcutta, Russia defends even stronger and Allies take Shanghai and Manila- tit for tat.

Realize that I could just as easily send the 18inf to Moscow which defeats the Axis right there!!! 
India sends mech and ftrs up to help defend.  US now can put a stronger force in Pac to keep the pressure.  Britain will open a second front alone b/c Germany wants to go balls to the walls on Russia.  Africa and Middle East will be in Allied hands through builds in SAfrica (don’t even need the IC in Egypt) and pressure on the Med.

For my games right now, I’m just trying the “bend don’t break” model by sending the 18inf to Japan and still see if Moscow can hold- its actually and Allied gambit opening!!!

put it this way, when I play revised or v4, I almost always be 4 tanks and an artillery and I always attack ukraine and west russia and if you stack karelia I always send every available unit (unless it is revised and your bid was 9 and you drop 3 infantry on europe, in which case I buy 3 infantry 3 tank and kick you out a round later). I race for berlin in revised. v4 allies get hit with such a hard nerfbat… it is harder to race, because you can’t just buy transports and men so you end up playing the money game, which is why I don’t play v4 and play revised.

in AA50, axis usually have all of africa, while I got italy and france. berlin usually goes before or at the same time as moscow. When I am japan, it is all about india burma FIC ICs spamming tanks. chucking 4 tanks of japan a round as well. screw australia, screw new guinea, screw new zealand, screw those islands, RUSSIA NOW. I do take egypt/transjordan and cross the canal if i can.

Screw east indies complex… especially in tech games, you have to keep your naval back in case of long range aircraft, especially if you were able to cross canal. Vs people who put full egypt bid… I go italy bombard caucasus, germany slam, japan drop persia. Game is won or lost in caucasus and axis got the odds so F IT. So what if there is a 20% chance I will be unhappy and lose, this is a dice game and you got to gamble at some point.
~

Vance Japan goes before USA. Japan is usually busy with dutch islands/calcutta on that round. USA don’t need to fly jack in, russia can just hold it (japan usually out of range with air as well).

Japan can’t go south and be north at the same time.
~

Japan deals with them later, like way later. There is not much income up there. just 3 korea and 3 manch, sure you can go further south, but then you are in range of the full might of japan… you don’t want to do that usually.

Like I said, it depends if you are going full pac or not how things look for japan. Yes, you need those units to do KJF. Yes you are racing for japan before russia falls.

Yes it is a race. Yes you can win the race. Yes KJF is a viable strategy. Lots of allies players chant PACIFIC PACIFIC PACIFIC. Yes I do this from time to time. It is easier than atlantic / split income. I usually provide UK with fleet to convoy 97 or drop men off UK with… but that is it. I almost never invest in transports for the atlantic and if I do it is because your japan is weak.

@ Noll, that is good to hear.

yeah I mix things up with germany often too. Japan always DOW 1 or 2 and always the same… unless russia is stacked in amur round 1 then they are sucking my fun and I hit them.

LOL

1. Comparing your successes in AA50/Revised and comparing it to Global is apples to oranges.

2. the Geography works against the Axis in Global- bigtime.

3. Ok, 20% shot???  Nothing to boast about.  That just means you have a good time losing.

4. Let’s just say you get Moscow.  I can guarantee you will lose multiple VCs on your backside (Manila, Shanghai, HongKong, Paris, Cairo, Rome)- you won’t have enough VCs then to win, but you’ll feel great cause you won Russia with and infantry!!! :lol: