Welcome! If you're a returning member of the forums, please reset your password. If you don't receive an email within minutes, it means your account is listed under another, likely older, email address. Contact webmaster@axisandallies.org for help.

Russian Mother Pleads for Son to Stay in Guantanamo Bay





  • Dagnabit! Saw it on Drudge.com about one hour before you posted it here. I better get in my resevation before all the good vacation times are taken.

    Gotta go…

    Curse you, DS!



  • I seem to recall reading an article a while back about the outstanding living conditions in our prisons. I have to agree with the Russians on this one, I would think that prison is not a place where you should reasonably want to be.



  • @El:

    Dagnabit! Saw it on Drudge.com about one hour before you posted it here. I better get in my resevation before all the good vacation times are taken.

    Gotta go…

    Curse you, DS!

    Hehe, where did you think I got it from? 😉



  • Cholera has been found to be nicer than Plague.



  • @F_alk:

    Cholera has been found to be nicer than Plague.

    By who? Victims of these diseases or scientists who just studied them? I would think you’d have to have had both these diseases to have an opinion on that, and I doubt there are many that have.



  • @Grigoriy:

    @F_alk:

    Cholera has been found to be nicer than Plague.

    By who? Victims of these diseases or scientists who just studied them? I would think you’d have to have had both these diseases to have an opinion on that, and I doubt there are many that have.

    i think he’s saying that one s**thole may be better than another one, but it does not change the fact that both are nicer.
    I could not comment, having never stayed in prison, particularly an American one, a Russian one, or Guantanimo Bay. I hope that prisons are terribly and crappy places to be. And i hope that bad people go to them for long periods of time and get treated as they deserve.



  • Yeah, I kind of figured it was something like that, but I just wanted to see if I could veer the topic way off track. 🙂 Curses, foiled again by the moderators! 😉



  • Yea, i agree with you CC. Prisons shouldnt be nice places. They shouldnt be comfortable little enclosures, where the only downside is restriction of freedom, then people wont mind going to prison, so may even want to go, depending on their crime.



  • @cystic:

    I hope that prisons are terribly and crappy places to be. And i hope that bad people go to them for long periods of time and get treated as they deserve.

    I hope so that the prisons were people wait for their trials (should they ever be trialed that is) are nice places.
    As long you are not proven guilty, you have to be assumed innocent.
    Thats the worst thing about Guantanamo.



  • Well F_alk, I honestly think you’re one of the few people who would want to give al-Qaeida terrorists hospitality. Yes, technically they are innocent until proven guilty, but when you take prisoners during a firefight, you’re stretching the term “innocent” as thin as it can go. Besides, where does it say anywhere that accused criminals need to be given nice amenities?



  • I just think that a democratic constitutional state has to follow some rules, and apply some very basic principles as well to its best citizen as to its worst enemy. Not following these principles would make it lose its status and transform it into some kind of banana republic.

    You talk of terrorists, not of “presumed terrorists”. What about those who have been found innocent and already left Guantanamo? Are they “former terrorists” then, as you are so sure that all there actually are terrorists.
    You see, it is not only technically. There are innocents there. There sure will be guilty ones there. Until you don’t know who is which, you should treat them as well as the circumstances allow.

    D:S, just imagine you, being absolutely innocent, are braought in such a camp. How would you like to be treated? Why do others not deserve it?

    And i will not go into the “take prisoner during a firefight”…. believe it. The earth is flat btw.



  • You are absolutely right Falk, the Earth is flat. We also never landed on the moon, Elvis lives in a trailer park outside Reno, the Earth is the center of the Universe, and their are only four elements (Fire, Wind, Water, and Earth). Now that that is out of the way, just imagine you Falk, being absolutely guilty, are brought into such a camp, how would you like to be treated? There are two sides to every coin. While invariably with any legal system, there will be some people who are innocent who are either accused, and ultimately absolved, or incarcerated, there are also many more guilty who could be absolved or ultimately incarcerated (I use the word absolved, but it doesnt sound right, if Im incorrect on it, feel free to point that out). Prisons are places where people are held for punishment. No prison should be a place where someone isnt at least loath to go, if not terrified. If that person ends up being innocent, than I would guess (Im no psychologist) that they would then be that much less likely to commit a crime, having been on the inside, and seen what it is like. Take note of Alcatraz. That is the kind of prison along the lines of what a prison should be, and note, there were never any successful escapes. Also note, I forget the exact name, but it was a Canadian POW camp during WWII. Located in Canada, in what is now a private school. This was a prison that Falk seems to be in favor of. Prisoners had much freedom there, they played sports, were given materials for sewing (dont ask me why) participated in theatrical events, all in the same building that is now a school. They even had leisurely meals in what resembled a cafe. The only elements that resembled a prison were the restriction of movement (only from leaving the compound, and presumably from a few places in the compound, i.e. the wardens quarters), the barracks style sleeping (thats right, no cells), and the guard towers. Here, among other escapes, there was a man who escaped no less than three times, and was caught not by prison officials, but by train workers, and mounties, in his quest to travel into the US. Whats the significance? The nicer the prison the more likely a breakout. Some may argue that if the conditions are nicer, people wont mind as much. But thats not true. The conditions may be nicer, but you are still a prisoner, and people want their freedom. If the conditions are harsher, like Alcatraz for instance, you will still have those who try to escape, but they will be unsuccessful, and many will not have the will to try and escape. Has anybody heard about the French Penal Colony in French Guiana? I dont know whether it is still active, but when it was, it was considered the most feared prison in all the world. Something those French finally did right. This prison had the harshest conditions Ive ever heard of in relation to a prison, I would say something like this would be the best bet for a prison, but for two things: the guards were corrupt, probably due to low pay, and relegation far from France, and the conditions in solitary were to the point that almost everyone in solitary died from disease, or went completely insane. While I wouldnt necessarily have a problem with conditions that bad, the length of time spent in them was unreasonable (measured in years) either improve the conditions a little, or shorten the time. Dead prisoners and insane prisoners just bring up new problems.



  • Actually I agree withj F_alk, those awaiting for their trials should be given at least reasonable quarters. Not a place where there could be more breakouts as Janus mentioned, but at least moderate living conditions and fair treatment by guards. When they are tried and convicted, that is where the law should weigh down on them.

    And next time Janus, can you please try skip to skip lines for new thoughts and paragraphs? Sorry, it’s just that I got lost about 10 times trying to read your post. :-?



  • sorry TG. Im on summer break right now, so im not really making an effort to discern between paragraphs. 😉

    I would say generally though, the nicer the living conditions, the easier it is to escape. i dont support inhumane conditions in prisons either, but i think the difference is what each of us would consider inhumane.



  • True. But from my knowledge a boxed in prison (with barb wire and guard towers) does not necessitate inhumane conditions. It’s that treatment inside the prison that matters.



  • I know, I was talking about worse than boxed in and barbed wire. What some would call inhumane, actually, probably more than some, I would consider acceptable for a prison.



  • Yes… but how do those inhumane conditions make it easier for the prisoner to escape?



  • you misunderstand, the better the conditions, thus, the more humane, the easier it is to escape. the inhumane conditions are usually in prisons with very few, if any escapes.



  • I guess I am missing something here…



  • Perhaps the theory is that if the guards have to work at making things tough for the prisoners they’ll be more alert so it’s harder to escape whereas at a “nicer” facility they’ll be more relaxed so it’s easier for an alert prisoner to escape.



  • thats part of it. but also the nicer a facility, aside from the guards, its generally easier to escape. the security measures are usually not as tight, and prisoners have more freedom, more access to things, etc. They also have the will to escape. in a harsher facility, many people are broken by the experience, and dont have the will to plan or execute an escape.



  • Or the fact that the harsher conditions make them want to escape even more. And where would the terrorist have to go? Not very many German prisoners escaped during WWII from US pow camps.

    But really, there has to be some way a prison can be human yet with extra secruity? No



  • true, they may want to escape even more, but look at alcatraz again. nobody ever escaped alive. though im sure the majority of people in their wanted to.



  • But the fact of the matter is that at Alcatraz, those are convicted men (usually of high crimes). At Guantanamo those men have yet to be tried.


Log in to reply
 

Welcome to the new forums! For security and technical reasons, we did not migrate your password. Therefore to get started, please reset your password. You may use your email address or username. Please note that your username is not your display name.

If you're having problems, please send an email to webmaster@axisandallies.org

T-shirts, Hats, and More

Suggested Topics

  • 22
  • 18
  • 3
  • 2
  • 1
  • 40
  • 15
  • 5
I Will Never Grow Up Games

53
Online

13.3k
Users

33.5k
Topics

1.3m
Posts