Can you retreat, from NOWHERE?


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    You start in the same seazone as enemy subs.

    You attack them.

    You are losing, so you opt to retreat… but, since you started in the zone - can you just retreat anywhere you want?



  • If you didn’t - during combat moves - designate an adjacent sea zone that your ship(s) went into and then returned from, then no.  You can only “retreat” and remain in place.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Savage!


  • TripleA '12

    This is an interesting situation. I would have thought that you would still be allowed to move (retreat) all your sea units together to one friendly sea zone, even though all of your sea units began their combat move phase in the same sea zone as the enemy Sub. However, if - by some odd chance - that there were no friendly sea zones to retreat to, then I would have said that no, you could not retreat at all, and would just have to fight it out with the Sub.

    Another interesting example: suppose you began your combat move phase with 1 Aircraft Carrier and 2 Fighters in the same sea zone as 1 enemy submarine, and you choose to do combat with it. A silly decision really as your Fighters cannot hit the Sub, but for the sake of argument let’s just assume that you are going ahead with it anyway. Oh what a surprise - the Sub fires its surprise strike and hits your Carrier, sinking it immediately! Now… what happens to your Fighters? I trust they are lost too. Or, can they move 1 space to a friendly carrier or island? Or does this benefit only go to the defender?

    Perhaps Krieghund could clarify this! Thank you.



  • You are on offense, so the rules for moving attacking fighters are the same.
    Once all combat has been resolved and you are in the non-combat phase, you can move the two fighters the remainder of their four movement points to a landing location.
    The 1-movement-to-land scenario only happens to defending fighters.


  • TripleA '12

    Ah, so in my case where the 2 Fighters and the enemy Sub could no longer hit each other, thus ending the combat - these 2 Fighters could use all 4 movement points to reach a friendly space during their non-combat move, because they did not move during the combat move? I see, yes.

    Again, any input from the Krieg would be awesome, just in case we are getting some of this wrong.  🙂


  • 2017

    Regarding Lozmoid’s scenario: Are you even allowed to declare a combat against a submarine if you bring no units which can hit it?



  • @wheatbeer:

    Regarding Lozmoid’s scenario: Are you even allowed to declare a combat against a submarine if you bring no units which can hit it?

    If you can’t hit the sub, you can’t attack the sub.

    And as already said, you can only retreat to a friendly space that a land or sea unit moved through.  Air units cannot be used to create a retreat path.

    It’s probably technically legal to move a ship away and then back, even though that’s a really gamey move and kinda BS, but until Krieg weighs in Alsch is probably right there.  I can’t with confidence on that one - it’s a function of the mechanics, but it’s a pretty BS ploy.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    If you can’t hit the sub, you can’t attack the sub.

    Actually, that’s a bunch of crap.

    There have been some extreme examples, that I’ve seen, where this has occured.

    Namely, a Russian decided he’d board himself onto an allied transport (American) in the pacific.  To spite the Russians the Americans then deliberately left their transport out as fodder for the Japanese air-force.

    Then, to spite the Americans, the Japanese refused to sink the transport.

    So the Americans sent it on a suicide no dice attack, which is technically legal, against a Japanese battleship and sub combo.



  • @Gargantua:

    If you can’t hit the sub, you can’t attack the sub.

    Actually, that’s a bunch of crap.

    There have been some extreme examples, that I’ve seen, where this has occured.

    Namely, a Russian decided he’d board himself onto an allied transport (American) in the pacific.  To spite the Russians the Americans then deliberately left their transport out as fodder for the Japanese air-force.

    Then, to spite the Americans, the Japanese refused to sink the transport.

    So the Americans sent it on a suicide no dice attack, which is technically legal, against a Japanese battleship and sub combo.

    How is that a legal move?  The transport has no attack or defend value, therefore it may not attack.  It can move into the sea zone that those enemy ships are in, but it can NOT attack them.  It would just sit there until the enemy turn in which they can ignore it, leave the seazone, or sink it.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    The transport has no attack or defend value therefore it may not attack

    INCORRECT.

    Let’s begin with the basic principles here.  Just because something HAS NO ATTACK VALUE - does not mean it cannot attack.

    Transports and Aircraft carriers, can participate in attacks, with NO special rules requiring them to be escorted.

    In fact, you attack with these units all the time.  And just because an attack is insane, or doomed to fail, that doesn’t mean you can’t do it.  If you want, you can send 1 infantry at a stack of 200 infantry.

    There’s just not usually a logical reason to do this - Ever; other than the example I expressed.

    It can move into the sea zone that those enemy ships are in, but it can NOT attack them.  It would just sit there until the enemy turn in which they can ignore it, leave the seazone, or sink it.

    Point of fact… what you’ve described here is completely illegal.  I can’t send my Aircraft Carrier, in com or non com movement, to an enemy occupied seazone, and just sit there.  If I do, that would have to be an attack, and the enemy would just roll dice at it until my unit  dies, so long as I’m willing to push my units to their death.

    The other “Technical” possibility for this example.  Is if you want to steal one of your belligerent buddies aircraft, and keep it on your aircraft carrier.  Attack with a loaded acc,  take one hit, and retreat to a friendly sz, thereby preventing your ally from removing his fighters from your acc, until you’ve repaired it on your next turn, and it’s too far away from anything for his pieces to go anywhere! 😄



  • @Gargantua:

    The transport has no attack or defend value therefore it may not attack

    INCORRECT.

    Let’s begin with the basic principles here. � Just because something HAS NO ATTACK VALUE - does not mean it cannot attack.

    Transports and Aircraft carriers, can participate in attacks, with NO special rules requiring them to be escorted.

    In fact, you attack with these units all the time. � And just because an attack is insane, or doomed to fail, that doesn’t mean you can’t do it. � If you want, you can send 1 infantry at a stack of 200 infantry.

    There’s just not usually a logical reason to do this - Ever; other than the example I expressed.

    It can move into the sea zone that those enemy ships are in, but it can NOT attack them. � It would just sit there until the enemy turn in which they can ignore it, leave the seazone, or sink it.

    Point of fact… what you’ve described here is completely illegal. � I can’t send my Aircraft Carrier, in com or non com movement, to an enemy occupied seazone, and just sit there. � If I do, that would have to be an attack, and the enemy would just roll dice at it until my unit  dies, so long as I’m willing to push my units to their death.

    The other “Technical” possibility for this example. � Is if you want to steal one of your belligerent buddies aircraft, and keep it on your aircraft carrier. � Attack with a loaded acc, � take one hit, and retreat to a friendly sz, thereby preventing your ally from removing his fighters from your acc, until you’ve repaired it on your next turn, and it’s too far away from anything for his pieces to go anywhere! 😄

    I could be wrong, but I thought it had been clarified that you cannot send ONLY units with no attack value into a hostile zone, because they CANNOT win.

    Attacks doomed to fail are different than attacks that CANNOT win.

    You cannot, for example, send a carrier alone on a suicide mission to open up the options for aircraft to go on suicide missions, because the carrier has absolutely no way to win alone.

    So I believe it follows, and has been written, than you cannot do bogus attacks with units that cannot attack.  You need at least one unit capable of scoring a hit, however unlikely a win will be.

    Thus, you cannot attack a sub with aircraft and a carrier - the attacker has NO way to score a hit, so it appears to be an illegal combat move as far as I am aware, even if the defender could choose to fire back.  Besides, if the sub is alone, you can just noncom over it, so I don’t see why anyone would ever perform this move.


  • Customizer

    Another point is transports, having no attack or defense capabilities, can simply be ignored by enemy ships. So, I think it would be a perfectly legal (if very strange) move to send unescorted transports into a hostile sea zone. Even though the transports have no way of attacking, the enemy ships can simply ignore them.
    Of course, said transports would not be allowed to unload any troops in that move, either combat or non-combat. They would have to simply sit there aboard the transports until that sea zone was cleared or the enemy decides to sink them on their turn.


  • Official Q&A

    You can move sea units out of a hostile sea zone and then back into it in order to establish a retreat route, provided an adjacent friendly sea zone is available.  In effect, this means that you can retreat to any adjacent sea zone that was friendly at the beginning of your turn if you remain in the sea zone you started in to attack.

    You may not attack (move into or remain in a hostile sea zone in combat movement, or declare an attack on subs) unless you have at least one unit that is capable of hitting at least one of the defending units.  Only subs and planes landing on a new carrier may move into a hostile sea zone in noncombat movement.



  • @Gargantua:

    The transport has no attack or defend value therefore it may not attack

    INCORRECT.

    Let’s begin with the basic principles here. � Just because something HAS NO ATTACK VALUE - does not mean it cannot attack.

    Ahah … thank you Kreig.  I was correct on that point.

    yes, I mispoke on the moving transports and carriers with no attacking units into a hostile zone.  My mistake.
    I did know you cannot attack with a transport or carrier (on their own) though … no attack value = no attack possible.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    You may not attack (move into or remain in a hostile sea zone in combat movement, or declare an attack on subs) unless you have at least one unit that is capable of hitting at least one of the defending units.  Only subs and planes landing on a new carrier may move into a hostile sea zone in noncombat movement.

    I think that bolded portion is COOL.  And I’m looking forward to using that move someday.

    However,

    THERE IS STILL AN EXAMPLE where you can choose to suicide your transports in an attack move.

    1 cruiser defending homeland japan, is attacked by 1 destroyer and 1 transport attempting to unload on the mainland.

    The cruiser pops the destroyer. I may now CHOOSE to continue my attack. I am not FORCED to end the attack.

    Also Kreighund, I’m going to take you to task here.  NO WHERE IN THE RULES IS IT WRITTEN that you cannot attack with a unit that has an attack value of 0. Atleast that I can find?

    Also, if somehow you’re ruling finds that you are forced to retreat.  Then there is another boondoggle you will have to solve.

    The Black Sea…  The germans after building a factory in Romania - build a detroyer and a transport.  The russians respond with a destroyer build.

    The Germans CANNOT retreat through turkey, and attack.  The Destroyer fails to kill the Russian Destroyer.

    THE TRANSPORT IS THEN FORCED TO ATTACK @ 0. 🙂

    Unless you somehow figure the retreat is forced?  inwhich case someone could BUILD into their navy.  But that just gets retarded.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    EVEN BETTER

    I’ve got you beat Kreighund.

    I build a transport into the black sea as Germany.

    Russia builds a destroyer.

    On Germanies next turn… THE TRANSPORT MUST ATTACK THE DESTROYER.

    Case Closed! Slam Dunk!

    The Game Mechanics are with me!


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    It’s a massacre!



  • Now you’re just looking for loopholes.

    Yeah, you COULD find that situation, but who would ever do it (who in their right mind that is)? � There would never be a reasonable case for it.

    I suppose if you’re crazy enough to commit that kind of income to a worthless navy, sure … but really?

    ** nvm this part … i’m thinking of something else Unless, if memory serves me correctly, the black sea is a no-build zone (just as the sahara desert is impassable, the black sea is not a valid zone).


  • '10

    @Rorschach:

    Now you’re just looking for loopholes.

    Well…Garg is good at that…

    I remember once he found a reason to build a NAVAL BASE on the mailand (not adjacent to any seazone…)  😮    😄


  • Official Q&A

    @Gargantua:

    THERE IS STILL AN EXAMPLE where you can choose to suicide your transports in an attack move.

    1 cruiser defending homeland japan, is attacked by 1 destroyer and 1 transport attempting to unload on the mainland.

    The cruiser pops the destroyer. I may now CHOOSE to continue my attack. I am not FORCED to end the attack.

    There’s nothing in the rules to prevent that.  It’s only the initial attack without an attack value that’s prohibited.

    @Gargantua:

    Also Kreighund, I’m going to take you to task here. � NO WHERE IN THE RULES IS IT WRITTEN that you cannot attack with a unit that has an attack value of 0. Atleast that I can find?

    It’s in the Official Rules Clarifications.


  • Official Q&A

    @Gargantua:

    EVEN BETTER

    I’ve got you beat Kreighund.

    I build a transport into the black sea as Germany.

    Russia builds a destroyer.

    On Germanies next turn… THE TRANSPORT MUST ATTACK THE DESTROYER.

    This is an obvious exception.  Being unable to move away trumps the rule that it cannot normally attack.



  • Transports are always taken as the last casualty, so the real issue here is can you attack with a carrier?  If I’m not mistaken you can, but you only ever would if you also had another unit with an attack value.  For instance you could attack with 1 sub and 1 carrier and suck up 2 hits with the carrier before you ever lose your sub.  That’s actually not a bad thing to do if the other side doesn’t have a destroyer and you can first strike with the sub.  Desperate maybe but effective.

    Garg’s example of building a transport into a hostile z100 without cover isn’t impossible BTW.  Suppose you intend to defend the new transport with fighters that can scramble from an airbase in axis controlled Greece, but alas the fighters are lost in a battle before they can land there.  Ooops.  Now the Soviets build their destroyer in z100 and you have to attack it with your naked destroyer and it gets automatically killed.  That sounds like a move I would do LOL  😛


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    obvious exception

    That’s all I was looking for 🙂  And Ahh the words of victory are rarely so sweet 🙂

    So all I have to do to get the Japanese Navy to sink my American Transport (with Russian infantry on it) is force my self into a postion - where there is no retreat possible.  And where my transport will invariably face death, in which case it’s allowed to attack.

    Many of you reading may think that these loopholes are irrelevant, ludicrous, stupid or annoying, until the moment arises, where under extreme circumstances - understand this knowledge becomes important.  Knowing how to solve all of these puzzles, is like knowing the square root of Pi,  it doesn’t really matter, until it really matters; and to consider yourself a master of the gave, you’ve got to explore every possibility.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Is this going to be added to the official rules clarification?

    “The only time a unit with an attack of 0 can engage in combat on it’s own in an attack, is if it starts in a hostile sea zone, and has no other means of escape”.


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