Truth or dare….

I read this and wasn’t going to add too much, but after reading an article on “medical students’ sense of entitlement”, i felt compelled to respond somewhat . . . .

@F_alk:

@cystic:

as a non-USie, however a person living in a city with a “mixed” population as well as one who reads/watches American news, i think i would be slow to jump on the “racially biased” train. Certainly - as with anywhere - there are police officers who are either ignorant jerks, or (at least here more and more) becoming more aware that there are increased calls to certain areas of the city with a correllate increase in certain populations.

I know of that behavior.
And i could give you a number of reasons why it is perceived much higher
than it actually is. I agree that the ratio of crimes per person is higher, but i guess it perceived about 3-5 times more than it really is!
(1) denser population (means not a garden between the families etc.) leads to “earlier” detection. For example: if you have 5 parties in a building except of one, with one party fighting (like husband beating wife)the probability that one other party will call the police increases dramatically.
(2)You will find what you look for. The more you look, the more you find.
(3)TV tells you so. (Which in turn with (2) leads to a self-amplification)
Alone (2) itself will lead to a self-amplification.

1. almost true. At the same time, people in these areas are actually less likely to do something if it is not their problem or does not concern them. Tons of nasty stuff happens downtown, and the people more likely to get involved tend to be white (no stats, however i lived in a nasty part of Winnipeg for a while). There is a fair amount of apathy which renders your point less likely.
2. Well yeah, but there are things to point you in that direction in the first place. I know enough cops to be able to suggest that they do not say “hey, i know where some aboriginals live - let’s go see if they’re robbing places/beating each other”.
3. working in the ER tells me so.

If you are a police officer in downtown Winnipeg and you reply to 5 domestic violence disputes in aboriginal homes for every 1-2 in a white home, then your expectations begin to shift. If every 1 in 2 armed robbery or mugging downtown is committed by an aboriginal and this is reported in the news, then after a while, you come to realize that you can save some time with basic assumptions.

Best not to ask why this could be the case? I really miss that question:
Why is the domestic violence rate higher in kind of homes?
(and for this example, (1) holds quite good. How many white wifes “have fallen down the stairs”? I could even take this 5 to 1.5 ratio as a sign that whites are anti-social, because they don’t care about what is going on at the neighbors ( i don’t ).)
For the newspaper coverage, sure this “basic assumptions” save time, and change the ratio for non-whites into their dis-favor.

that’s fair, but it really does not go towards the issue of police/judicial bias. At the same time, the courts are well aware of the circumstances that these people grow up in and frequently judgements are based on these “mitigating factors”. Often jail time for these people is deferred for a bulls**t healling circle (pardon my french, but a guy pulls a knife on a dialysis nurse and THIS is his punishment?).
As for why these crimes are higher in these populations - good question. I knew of one native guy who wants to yell at his people saying “did the white man make you drink? Did he make you hit your wife? Smarten up!”

well obviously we do not know the proporation of drivers on the road that are drunk, nor do we know how many were pulled over because they were weaving all over the road, at checkstops, etc.

Exactly.
How many whites beat their wife but no cop is called because in the suburb noone is close enough to hear her?

well, this is a toughie. As i said, i’m not sure that many people call downtown for reasons other than “those guys are being too fricken noisy”. Still, this is fair.

At the same time, we see increases in crime related to ethnic gangs. Increasingly Vietnamese, Chinese and even Indian gangs - bound by common culture and language and perhaps a harsh going at immigration - take to a life of crime.

harsh going at immigration: i would take away the perhaps there.
If you as totally honest non-white, doing your best to “assimilate”, are not allowed to do that, but instead (innocent as you are) are frequently suspected for no other reason than being non-white……
i would not blame you when you say: “f*ck it, if they want me to be criminal, then they can have it!”

i disagree. There are too many nets for immigrants. Many of them come here criminals - to escape the law in their own country, or they come here just looking for a different life. They assume that because we’re multi-cultural blah blah blah - that we’re going to give them life on a plate and that we’re all going to speak whatever language they come here with (fortunately in hospitals, we usually can do that). Also immigrants are less often the targets of investigation than you might think. Most of them are seen as hard-working people. I think you’re trying to invent a situation here that does not exist to the extent you suggest.

These gangs from of “common culture and language”? Why do they stick to their language that much? Why do they think they have to take their culture as a someting to found a society apart from society?

because Canada makes it so easy for them to do that.

This leads to the next question(s):
Which order immigrants form these gangs? How many generations have they stayed, or did they really come to be criminal?
I think i said that here already, but you can see (here in Germany) that the newest generation of Turks is learning less German than the one before, and more sticks to their turkish roots. This is because we Germans never gave them a chance, but always treated as strange, inferior, and now (as they start to actively segregate) as probably criminal.

usually first/second generation. I think it’s unrealistic to say that this is because we “don’t give them a chance”. On the contrary - many efforts are made to encourage multiculturalism and diversity. Many social programs exist to help others. I think that if i were to move to Japan - i would have to be realistic about learning the language and customs/cultures and laws of Japan, in addition to determining the best way to secure income etc.

At the same time, it’s silly not to be realistic about what is going on around you.

I agree, but it is even more silly not to ask what went wrong and how it could be made better.

i think a round of swift kicks to the a$$ is a good start. Too many people have opportunity and they throw it away. An infinite number of choices line the roads of their lives, and they consistently make bad decisions that are often not even good in the short-term. I look at the money and resources that go into the inner-city and reserves (aboriginals) and the efforts made by all levels of gov’t to improve education and health care, and to better people’s lives, and it’s amazing how it is LITERALLY THROWN AWAY (note: not figuratively - i know the difference in the meanings of these too words). I know what you’re saying, but 50 years of work and hundreds of billions of $ have gone into improving these situations, but sometimes you have to just open your eyes and realize that this happens.

F_alk, it’s not a matter of group A suffering from some injustice. It’s a matter of logic and efficiency. If everyday you watch your neighbor’s dog lay a fresh pile of dog crap on your lawn, and then a week later you step in a pile of dog crap, who are you going to expect to clean it up, the neighbor you watched or your grandmother across town just because she owns a poodle also?? :o

The line of reasoning that directs us to believe that people are “suffering,” is the same thinking that led to the inefficiency at the airports. After 9/11, when the Arabs claimed they were being discriminated against, we began to enhance the security at our airports. You know how we did that? We randomly checked certain bags and/or people. In an effort to treat everyone equally, we sacrificed common sense and security in the name of “not hurting anyone’s feelings.”

BTW, no I didn’t like Mailer. He’s not even worth wasting my breathe about. :(

I live near and work in a city with racial problems brodcast to the world lately. Cincinnati, OH, USA.

The majority of blacks are law abiding. A small percentage of blacks, not a small number though, holds them hostage. They are afraid to report shootings they witness because the violence will then come to them. They do not see that it already has them under control.

The small percentage complained of white cop on black citizen harassment. The city/state goverment made the cops do detailed paperwork on auto stops. This took time away from cops covering the territory. More problems…

A black activist minister’s son was stopped and searched(He and his friend acted suspicious by ducking down in the car immediately after stopping[maybe reaching under the seat for a gun or hiding drugs…]). They complain of racial prejudice and specific harassment of the family.

Most people, and most blacks, who live in the troubled communities ask for more police coverage. They know that the crime rate goes down when an active police force patrols the neighborhood. The problem has become that the police are pulled in too many directions by the city gov’t., citizens, lawsuits, state requirements, budget, and activists.

F_alk, i don’t have the time to reply to everything you wrote vs. my post right now.
Suffice it to say, i think that you are making up excuses for people where: 1) They don’t exist, or
2) They are exaggerated.
When i give you reasons for these, then you slide into a related topic with a non-sequitor.
True - because certain minority groups have a heightened proportion of crime, then there is increased suspicion thrown their way, but it is not directed at random minorities so much as the gangs/groups many of these affiliate themselves with.
And although there is a small problem with the “social engineering” or lack thereof - this is one heck of a nice big excuse, however it also demonstrates why these people draw police attention to themselves.
I think the accusations against western policies, gov’ts, law enforcement and people for the conditions of its immigrants and other minorities (well, at least Canada as i do not know enough about the US to comment) are unfair. Many MANY efforts are made to integrate these people into every aspect of every gov’t’l agency and their arms with preferential hiring policies, educational bonuses and grants and encouragement for businesses to hire these populations. What you might consider “ghettos” are housing projects that are set up to help these people afford a decent place to live. At least until other elements of their populations screw it up with vandalism, litter and crime.
Face it F_alk, not all westerners are 60’s white guys from Alabama.

Mr Ghoul that Andy Rooney post is one of the best I have ever seen on here. GOOD JOB!! :D

F_alk I think the others are not saying to blame everybody in a racial group for the crimes that a few make. But at the sametime it’s not a good sign when those few who do commit crimes are protected by the rest of the group.

The idea that a cop kills a black man while defending him or herself and then the black community of that area blames the police and not the criminal is really messed up.

That scenario happens time and time again.

And it gets much worse when Jesse Jackson gets involved!!

I wonder how much better race relations would be if Jesse would get out of the race baiting bussiness.

It’s really sad, when I was a little kid I looked up to him, now after i know much more he is the last thing America needs to fix her race problems!!!

Im not going to sit here and pretend to be nonbiased, because I have a strong opinion about this, and Im really not going to bother to listen to any arguments, I dont think you will change my mind. But anyway, Id like to take something Rooney said, rascism works both ways. Of course there are white people who are discriminatory against blacks, its called humanity. It is impossible, thats right, impossible, to completely eliminate all forms of rascism, there will always be someone who doesnt treat someone equally in whatever way, based on his or her race. But that person could be white, black, indian, native american, arab, whatever. rascism does not just work from the majority to the minority, it goes the other way too. its been predicted that sometime during the century (i forget the specifics, its been a little while since Ive heard this) the populations of i believe the latino and asian peoples will outnumber that of whites in the United States. When that happens, the whites will become a minority. It will be interesting to see whether whites are still called rascist while no other group is, or whether the new majorities will be the rascist ones. Im just guessing here, but I would bet that blacks and other minorities in the US commit at least as many acts of rascism as whites (and thats rascism of any and all forms). like rooney said, BET, that is rascist. when you have black comics up on stage, making joke after joke about white people, and “whitey keeping them down” thats rascism. not everybody will realize or admit this, because A) its funny, and B) black people are incapable of rascism (notice the sarcasm) if a white comic went up and made rascist jokes like black comics do, theyd never be able to perform again. Im not going to sit here and dispute racial profiling either, because it does happen. I think it is taken out of context sometimes, the facts are often distorted, and its seen as more major than it truly is. Like D:S said, racial profiling was conducted on arabs after 9:11. you can argue all day about the morality of this, but the fact remains, the vast majority of these islamic terrorist groups are arab, and no body can say they wont be planning another attack. if the black panthers commit a terrorist act, do we check white people to see if they are members? similarly, would we check black people if the KKK commited a terrorist act? no, thats foolish. the media also plays a major role in so-called racial profiling. case in point, the ahmedu diallo shooting a number of years ago. was it racial profiling? perhaps, but perhaps the cops felt legitemetly threatened. i didnt follow the case, so i dont know how it turned out, but it was immediately called racial profiling. yes, he was shot excessively, (like 46 times or sumthin) but that does not make it racial profiling, maybe unneccessary use of force or sumthin like that. and again, like the fact that people seem to think minorities are incapable of rascism, only acts of rascism against blacks are reported in the media.

This is weird - i have to check something. I think i’m agreeing with Janus . . . .

couldnt be CC, are you sure you are feeling ok?

Well, a cop beating up an innocent black (and the one who videotaped it getting in severe trouble two weeks later) is much more scary to me.

That’s not the whole story. :(