Is a g4 declaration of war viable in alpha3 and if so why or why not
On who?
G4 is, in my opinion, the best time to declare war on Russia. It allows you to move 10+ men built from G2 to the front line, giving the Russians less counter-attack opportunities. This will increase your ability to push deeper into Russia, as long as you keep a steady stream of reinforcements behind that main assault force. It doesn’t matter that the Russians get more men, it is better for Germany if both countries have lots of men, then if both countries have only a few men.
Also, if you are attacking G4, it gives you more time to grind the UK down and give Italy some aid. If you build a navy and bulk up your airforce, the UK will be forced to defend their Island from SBR and convoy raiding.
Just wondering what you would plan on bringing into Russia on your G4 attack? How many artillery and infantry? Would it go in as one big force or split it up into north and south parts? Would you reinforce with mechs, tanks or both? What do you do with the infantry in Finland?
IDK what I’d do that late. I’d probably try to hit the Russian stacks otherwise they’ll be on Berlin’s door.
As Germany, I pretty much never attack Russia until G3 or G4. Usually, I wait until G4 for maximum build-up. I don’t usually go for Sealion anymore, especially with the latest Alpha+3.9 setup as I think it would just take too much for Germany to capture London, which would leave them too weak on the Eastern Front.
Typically, my Germany play goes like this:
G1 = Buy Major IC. Take France, Normandy & Yugoslavia. Kill as much Royal Navy as possible, especially transport in SZ 109 (don’t want the Brits landing troops in Europe). NCM Finland & Bulgaria. Use transport to move 1 inf and 1 art to Norway. Place Major IC in Romania.
G2 = Buy Airbase, 3 transports, and as many inf/art as possible. If have less than 3 fighters available, also buy fighter in place of inf/art. Try to kill any Royal Navy missed G1. NCM everything East. Bulgarian infantry moves to Romania. Land 3 fighters in Romania. Use transport in Baltic to move 1 inf and 1 art OR 2 inf to Norway. Place airbase in Romania, 3 transports in Black Sea, infantry and artillery at Berlin and Romanian plants and fighter in Romania if you had to build one.
G3 = Buy tanks and mechs, perhaps a bomber and/or tac if can afford it. Also a few more infantry. Keep an eye on UK, any new ships must be dealt with, especially transports. NCM infantry/artillery in Berlin to Poland and Slovakia/Hungary except for 1 inf and perhaps 1 tank to go on transport to Norway. Previously landed infantry/artillery in Norway should be moved to Finland by now. Try to land planes in range of Russian territories (this will depend on how many planes you had to commit to deal with UK ships). Place tanks and mechs in Berlin and Romanian plants. Place new planes (if bought any) on airbase in W Germany. Place few infantry in Normandy, Paris and W Germany for startings of a defensive force.
G4 = BARBAROSSA!! Buy a few tanks and mechs, some infantry for the West and perhaps replenish your U-Boats. Force in Finland attacks Karelia along with Tank in Norway, Force in Poland hits Baltic States, Force in Slovakia/Hungary hits E. Poland, Force in Romania hits Bessarabia, Load 4 infantry, 1 tank and 1 artillery on to 3 transports in Black Sea and take Caucasus. Tanks and Mechs in Berlin and Romania to be divided between battles as you see fit. Same with any available aircraft. VERY IMPORTANT: During your NCM, move the 1 infantry on Norway to Finland. That way if there is any Russian force on Vyborg, they can’t just blitz Finland and take Norway too.
With any luck, you will have captured 5 Russian territories and gained an NO for the Caucasus replacing the “Peace with USSR” NO. Of course depending on the dice, you should also have large enough armies left that Russia won’t be able to do anything about it. It’s possible Russia may wipe out the Caucasus force and maybe even the far northern force as thow will be your weakest points. However, you will still have 3 large armies that will push toward Moscow plus the Major IC in Romania will be a big help resupplying the southern and perhaps center armies. Also you will still have the 3 transports in the Black Sea to hit Caucasus again, or perhaps Rostov instead to surround the Ukraine or threaten Stalingrad. Russia will NOT survive. You just have to keep the Western Allies at bay long enough.
I’ve been experimenting with a G1 attack on Russia, and I’m liking what I see…… but I’m too tired to explain why right now… sorry. I will report when I’m sure of it.
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I know how you you feel I’m trying to figure out a good strategy to aTtack on g9
@Vance:
Just wondering what you would plan on bringing into Russia on your G4 attack? How many artillery and infantry? Would it go in as one big force or split it up into north and south parts? Would you reinforce with mechs, tanks or both? What do you do with the infantry in Finland?
Well, with the money from G2, I would buy 6 art, 4 inf, and a minor IC in Romania (The rest for subs and strat bombers to kill UK). I would also take my starting transport and ferry 1 art and 1 inf to Finland each turn for three turns, and keeping my 3 inf in Norway to protect it from allied invasion. On G3 i will have 15 inf, 6 art in Poland, 7 inf, 3 art in Finland, about 11 infantry and 3 art in Romania, and 9 tanks and any surviving mechs from the Invasion of France ready to hit any Russian territory from Slovakia-Hungary. Each turn afterwards, I build another 5 infantry, 5 art to form a constant stream of supplies towards Russia, along with 3 inf in Romania.
That’s a solid build for G4 Barbarossa. What do you buy G1 so you don’t tip off the allies. It’s been my experience that if you don’t threaten England G1 with some naval builds (or saving the bulk of your G1 income), Italy will feel the wrath. It normally ends up with mutual destruction of navy in the Med, but Italy has a much harder time recovering. It also makes it much easier for the US to finish them off turn 5 or so. If UK feels safe its Med navy could become expendable UK1.
On a second note (sorry I’m babbling)
It could work to the axis advantage with UK losing most of the Royal Navy on the Euro board (assuming the Luftwaffe did its job around England). It would probably require some planned help from Germany though sub builds/air force around the Med to keep it in axis hands. In our games the UK seems to come up on the short end of the dice quite often for some reason in the early naval clash. Even if successful any surviving UK navy is a sitting duck in sz97, because you have to over kill for threat of scramble. Maybe its also just in our games, but the Indian navy generally starts heading towards the Med to replace losses (along with maybe a carrier build at some point in S Africa) to retake the Med and contain Italy easily w/o help from big brother.
I’m a big fan of 10 Inf on G1. It makes both Moscow and London have to play defensive - and if London doesn’t, you have 68-72 IPC to still be able to send 7 or so TT into London (and you WILL SBR London).
I don’t like waiting until G4 to attack Russia as if you strafe Yugo on G1 and retreat to Romania you’ll have somewhere on the level of 19 Inf, 3 Arm, 2 Art + Tac attacking E.Poland on G2. With that 10 Inf purchase on G1 being put in Berlin, they will move into Poland on G2 and you’ll land your aircraft there stopping a Russian counter from Leningrad.
This sets up you to be able to send 19 Inf (minus losses in E.Poland) + 9 Arm + Tac + Bomber to hit Baltics on G3. You don’t want to send your 10 Inf from Poland (that you bought on G1) into the Baltics, but into E.Poland to prevent the Russians from trying to flank you. You’d then on G3 land all your aircraft in E.Poland and on G4 put an AB there so you can strike everywhere, including Moscow for SBR as early as G5 and you are about 2 turns out from hitting Moscow at that point with your ground units.
I’m a big fan of 10 Inf on G1. Â It makes both Moscow and London have to play defensive - and if London doesn’t, you have 68-72 IPC to still be able to send 7 or so TT into London (and you WILL SBR London).
How will you keep your surface fleet during UK1? That effectively nullifies any Sealion threat.
@WILD:
That’s a solid build for G4 Barbarossa. What do you buy G1 so you don’t tip off the allies. It’s been my experience that if you don’t threaten England G1 with some naval builds (or saving the bulk of your G1 income), Italy will feel the wrath. It normally ends up with mutual destruction of navy in the Med, but Italy has a much harder time recovering. It also makes it much easier for the US to finish them off turn 5 or so. If UK feels safe its Med navy could become expendable UK1.
Right, I forgot to mention G1 buys. On G1, I go all navy, buying 1 Aircraft Carrier, 1 destroyer, and 1 sub. The naval purchase means that London must shore up defenses, and I can hit the convoy in 109 with a sizable navy (approx 10 dice roles). So, with the naval purchase, I have more time to spend preparing for Barbarossa. I’m a fan of building a navy not just for the sea-lion feign, but for convoy disruption, and a powerful defense for my coasts, forcing the US and UK to spend money on naval vessels instead of just transports.
I’m a big fan of 10 Inf on G1. It makes both Moscow and London have to play defensive - and if London doesn’t, you have 68-72 IPC to still be able to send 7 or so TT into London (and you WILL SBR London).
I don’t like waiting until G4 to attack Russia as if you strafe Yugo on G1 and retreat to Romania you’ll have somewhere on the level of 19 Inf, 3 Arm, 2 Art + Tac attacking E.Poland on G2. With that 10 Inf purchase on G1 being put in Berlin, they will move into Poland on G2 and you’ll land your aircraft there stopping a Russian counter from Leningrad.
This sets up you to be able to send 19 Inf (minus losses in E.Poland) + 9 Arm + Tac + Bomber to hit Baltics on G3. You don’t want to send your 10 Inf from Poland (that you bought on G1) into the Baltics, but into E.Poland to prevent the Russians from trying to flank you. You’d then on G3 land all your aircraft in E.Poland and on G4 put an AB there so you can strike everywhere, including Moscow for SBR as early as G5 and you are about 2 turns out from hitting Moscow at that point with your ground units.
My problem with 10 infantry is that, although it does force UK to defend itself, you do not get to have a German naval presence. If you wait for G2 to build a navy, you miss a round of convoy disruption and you lose the early initiative in the Atlantic. I will admit however, that I am eager to try a 10 inf build, mainly for the possibility of a massive attack on G4, or like you suggested, G3.
You have to keep up at least the possibility of sea lion, which means either naval build G1 or SAVE all your money so you COULD build a carrier and transports G2 if you want to. That forces UK to build infantry and back off Italy for a turn.
Since you are waiting until G4 anyway, have you given any thought to putting transports in z100 and an airbase in Greece? Landings in the Black Sea region can really throw USSR off balance, especially with the new Soviet NO that makes Iraq so valuable.
Vance - airbase in Greece is nice - I’ve done it several times, and Germany can really mess with the Allies in the Med and Black Sea region. I have a hard time spending the IPCs these days, but if the right opportunity came along…
G4 is a great time for an attck on Russia. You pretty much have Leningrad guaranteed on G5 if you build and move wisely. Also, you get to collect the 5 from Russia right til the end.
However, Italy can declare war on I3… and be a nice can opener on the front, and get itself a little bit of Russian economy…
@Vance:
Since you are waiting until G4 anyway, have you given any thought to putting transports in z100 and an airbase in Greece? Landings in the Black Sea region can really throw USSR off balance, especially with the new Soviet NO that makes Iraq so valuable.
It’s good in theory, but when I’ve tried it, I realized that the air base plus 3 transports costs more than the value of the territories it takes. The air base in Romania had the sole purpose of protecting those transports, so its really 15 IPCs down the tube in my opinion, plus the 21 IPC cost for transports.
G4 is a great time for an attck on Russia. You pretty much have Leningrad guaranteed on G5 if you build and move wisely. Also, you get to collect the 5 from Russia right til the end.
Agreed.
It does cost a lot, but the payback is not just the territories you take; it’s the disruption and distraction that it causes the USSR.
I agree that the Black Sea investments are hard to justify, but it is definitely plausible.
One way to get a little bit more bang for your buck with this strategy is to use Greece, rather than Romania, for your staging territory. You have to do it one turn later - taking Greece on G2 - but this give you a bit more flexibility.
You can build into the Black Sea and the Med from Greece, and an airbase in Greece protects both Black Sea transports and Italian fleets in the Med. Kinda nice.
I’m a big fan of 10 Inf on G1. � It makes both Moscow and London have to play defensive - and if London doesn’t, you have 68-72 IPC to still be able to send 7 or so TT into London (and you WILL SBR London).
How will you keep your surface fleet during UK1? That effectively nullifies any Sealion threat.
Explain your reasoning.
I send 2 SS, 3 Ftr, 3 Tac into SZ110. I withdraw once I lose my SS
I send 2 SS, 1 BB, 1 Ftr, 1 Tac, 2 Bomber to SZ111.
I NCM my CR to SZ112, land as many aircraft as possible in W.Germany.
UK can choose to not scramble and give up its ships or scramble and face losing its air force. G2 you use your CR if it isn’t attacked (because your BB is a juicy target) and finish off any ships the UK has left from G1 with all the Aircraft in W.Germany.
I assure you, there is PLENTY left to still land a Sea Lion on G3, you may just have to direct a Ftr or two to SZ110 to prevent any UK aircraft from thinking of scrambling against your CV, DD, possibly CR and of course TT.
It works, I’ve done it against a too comfortable London.
I agree that the Black Sea investments are hard to justify, but it is definitely plausible.
One way to get a little bit more bang for your buck with this strategy is to use Greece, rather than Romania, for your staging territory. You have to do it one turn later - taking Greece on G2 - but this give you a bit more flexibility.You can build into the Black Sea and the Med from Greece, and an airbase in Greece protects both Black Sea transports and Italian fleets in the Med. Kinda nice.
The timing of this coincides nicely with a G3 amphibious assault on Syria. Transports can be built in Southern France G2 and protected when they go to z99 on G3 by scramble cover from the new Greece airbase. Now if Japan can take India early so UK doesn’t interfere, you might manage to establish a minor in Iraq and put transports in z100. This plan would be a good reason to delay attacking USSR until I3/G4. You would have them defending on two fronts, with a push up toward Novgorod and a second coming up through Caucasus.
I really like this Vance - gets a good head start in the Middle East for the Axis.
I’m thinking if you had sufficient Italian troops to can open on I3 then g4 a blitz of mech and tanks could take out a big stack of the Russian army. I also think that a small naval build should happen as this still will allow Italy a chance in Africa. Infantry buys and artillery buys should happen as well. So they can attack the territory the italians did not can open. This is not exact buys however a naval buy by Germany and a can open by Italy seems a smart way to go.
I really like this Vance - gets a good head start in the Middle East for the Axis.
Thanks! Yeah you do get a strong head start by going this way. The Soviets get to build their forces for the first 3 turns but they are neutral and can’t activate North Persia until round 4 if you don’t attack them. Meanwhile you land in Syria with 3 inf/3 art on G3, and then on G4 you activate the 3 Iraqi infantry and also land another 3 inf/3 armor in Syria.
On G5 you can hit anything the allies have put in North or Central Persia with 6 inf, 3 art, 3 armor. Planes from Greece airbase can also reach North or Central Persia and land in Iraq! That prevents the Soviets from getting the “Spread of communism” NO for Iraq and Ethiopia etc. At the same time as you do this you are taking Novgorod.
On G6 you can land in Caucasus off transports in z110 and meet up with the units from North Persia. From there, if you can hold the middle east oil NOs and Novgorod/Archangel I don’t see how Russia can keep from starving to death while Germany is earning ~70IPCs per turn.
most of the time I play with Russia, so I think since Germany goes before Russia It should attack very soon since Russia has only so much men there on the front line.
