Quote from: Imperious Leader
Again this is because the population had no reservations against fighting against her occupiers.
Right, so because a large part of the population was not fighting means they collaborated. Again with this “us vs. them” nonsense. Either you’re with us or against us, is that it?
NO what is true is the people and soldiers who volunteered to join the Vichy Government as police and government types and acted to aid the Germans to commit atrocities is far greater than the number of French employed as resistance fighters or Free French. Us vs. them means for you counting these people and comparing, which you don’t acknowledge. So now you know.
How convenient to ignore days before the allies invade or after they invade.
Except they didn’t “ignore days” before the Allied invasion. As I’ve already pointed out they constantly fed intelligence to the Allies in Britain and smuggled downed pilots out of the country.
Yea more of this “they” quantitatively few compared to those who fed intelligence to the NAZI’s to aid them in rounding up people for death. Don’t let that get in the way of “they” :mrgreen:
Compared to the systematic acts of collaboration, these acts pale in comparison.
Your point being? Still waiting on those numbers of collaboration by the way.
The point which you will never acknowledge, that for the most part French actions of WW2 are replete with aiding the Germans , not fighting them.
And how did Yugoslavia use such excuses of physical separation? They didn’t. They fought all the way. Other nations occupied did not just form collaboration government and pretend they are ‘neutral’.
Guess you’ve never heard of Quisling. Or the “Independent State of Croatia”. Or Dutch police and civilian authorities collaborating with the Nazis (the Netherlands had one of the highest levels of collaboration with the Nazis during the Holocaust. Guess that means they’re all cowardly, incompetent fighters, hmm?) Or the Denmark “Protectorate Government”.
Because i don’t post about Quisling does not mean i don’t know about him. But i guess making the argumentative fallacy of “hey they did bad, so that means my French are not so bad”.
You’re extremely oversimplifying it. The fact that French historians to this day are extremely divided on Vichy France does not mean that “they” all just sweep it under the carpet. I’m not sure why you still think France is some big monolithic entity with a hive mind where all its inhabitants have the exact same opinions of Vichy.
That is not my position. I am counting acts of defiance vs. collaboration so you have nothing to argue about, knowing that the acts of the latter for whatever reason far outweigh those of the former.
And again ignoring the fact that Germany was almost completely occupied before they surrendered, unlike France which falls with about 20% of their country is occupied.
Well I’m sorry that you feel the French didn’t follow in the footsteps of the Germans and throw young boys and old men after an overwhelming force even when the war was far lost.
Right. With young men and seasoned veterans, they surrendered basically when the Germans reached Sedan. Germany fought on with old men and kids and while like 90% of the nation was occupied. Who lasted longer before surrender? What are you even arguing about?
Yes some french did decide, while the vast majority went “Vichy”.
Still waiting on those numbers–-
They became policemen who helped Germans find innocent people
–-Oh, right! Nevermind, we have the numbers right here. According to you the vast majority of the French population became policemen. Never before have I heard of such an influx of people, millions at that, actively go out and round up people.
Those numbers outweigh the numbers of french peeps blowing up bridges….and making your argument stronger by ignoring my 100,000 quote and inserting “millions” is a masterstroke of hilarity.
The Free French was not a “government” it was nothing but a loose collection of French soldiers that escaped Dunkirk. The “French Government” was in fact Vichy collaborating with the Germans for 4 years. The Free French was also a number of military units fighting with the allies and totally financed by UK.
Really? Just soldiers from Dunkirk? Then pray tell how it managed to grow to 540,000 by 1944, when 139,997 French soldiers were evacuated from France, a great many who eventually was repatriated?
here are some facts to ponder…
“The Free French forces were drawn mostly from the French colonial empire, rather than from metropolitan France”
“Out of about 60,000 troops evacuated from France in July 1940, only about 3,000 chose to continue the struggle, joining de Gaulle’s army in London. By the end of the year, he had 7,000 troops.”
“Until 23 October 1944,the Vichy Regime was acknowledged as the official government of France by the United States and other countries, including Canada…”
“The exact strength of the Vichy French Metropolitan Army was set at 3,768 officers, 15,072 non-commissioned officers, and 75,360 men. All Vichy French forces had to be volunteers. In addition to the army, the size of the Gendarmerie was fixed at 60,000 men plus an anti-aircraft force of 10,000 men”
“The Vichy French colonial forces were reduced in accordance with the Armistice. Still, in the Mediterranean area alone, the Vichy French had nearly 150,000 men in arms. There were approximately 55,000 men in the Protectorate of Morocco, approximately 50,000 men in French Algeria, and almost 40,000 men in the “Army of the Levant” (Arm�e du Levant) in the Mandate of Lebanon and the Mandate of Syria. The colonial forces were allowed some armored vehicles. However, these tended to be “vintage” tanks as old as the World War I-era Renault FT.”
“Besides the concentration camps opened by Vichy, the Germans also opened on French territory some Ilags (Internierungslager) to detain enemy aliens, and in Alsace, which had been annexed by the Reich, they opened the camp of Natzweiler, which is the only concentration camp created by Nazis on French territory (annexed by the Third Reich). Natzweiler included a gas chamber which was used to exterminate at least 86 detainees (mostly Jewish) with the aim obtaining a collection of undamaged skeletons (as this mode of execution did no damage to the skeletons themselves) for the use of Nazi professor August Hirt.”
“Furthermore, Vichy enacted a number of racist laws. In August 1940, laws against antisemitism in the media (the Marchandeau Act) were repealed, while the decree n�1775 September 5, 1943, denaturalized a number of French citizens, in particular Jews from Eastern Europe.Foreigners were rounded-up in “Foreign Workers Groups” (groupements de travailleurs �trangers) and, as the colonial troops, were used by the Germans as manpower .The Statute on Jews excluded them from the civil administration.”
"Vichy also enacted a number of racist laws in its French territories in North Africa (Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia). “The history of the Holocaust in France’s three North African colonies (Algeria, Morocco, and Tunisia) is intrinsically tied to France’s fate during this period.”