• Good stuff FM - I’ll reply point by point:

    1. This is a good move, and pretty important to make the UK bleed to take out the Battleship etc. Try bringing two German aircraft - that way when you scramble three  total aircraft, Italy will be left with at least one fighter. Otherwise, the Italian airforce is just about wiped out.

    2. The UK player can hit SZ96 with Cruiser/Fighter and SZ97 with everything from SZ98, Fighter from Malta, Fighter and Bomber from UK. Even with a scramble from S Italy, UK should win with a decent amount of air power remaining - which can land on Malta. Italy is left with only the fleet in SZ95 to start.

    3. With UK taking out most of the Med fleet, it takes several turns for Italy to recover, claim NOs, and take N Afican territiories. If lucky enough to see the UK back out of the Med and not attack on UK1, Italy will have some fun adventuring.

    4. As UK I tend to take out Ethiopia on UK1 (combined with assault on Italy’s navies as detailed above) with Cruiser from SZ39 and all available land units that can reach - that limits Italy on their first turn. It makes taking Egypt a little harder.

    5. Yes! Agreed on all counts.

    6. Yes! Very helpful for Italy.

    I would add that I also typically purchase a Transport/Inf/Art on UK2 in S Africa, and that can make it to Egypt before Italy goes on turn 3. Thise two units can mean the difference between Egypt living or dying.


  • @Stalingradski:

    Good stuff FM - I’ll reply point by point:

    1. This is a good move, and pretty important to make the UK bleed to take out the Battleship etc. Try bringing two German aircraft - that way when you scramble three� total aircraft, Italy will be left with at least one fighter. Otherwise, the Italian airforce is just about wiped out.

    2. The UK player can hit SZ96 with Cruiser/Fighter and SZ97 with everything from SZ98, Fighter from Malta, Fighter and Bomber from UK. Even with a scramble from S Italy, UK should win with a decent amount of air power remaining - which can land on Malta. Italy is left with only the fleet in SZ95 to start.

    3. With UK taking out most of the Med fleet, it takes several turns for Italy to recover, claim NOs, and take N Afican territiories. If lucky enough to see the UK back out of the Med and not attack on UK1, Italy will have some fun adventuring.

    4. As UK I tend to take out Ethiopia on UK1 (combined with assault on Italy’s navies as detailed above) with Cruiser from SZ39 and all available land units that can reach - that limits Italy on their first turn. It makes taking Egypt a little harder.

    5. Yes! Agreed on all counts.

    6. Yes! Very helpful for Italy.

    I would add that I also typically purchase a Transport/Inf/Art on UK2 in S Africa, and that can make it to Egypt before Italy goes on turn 3. Thise two units can mean the difference between Egypt living or dying.

    In reference to the red text… I have a UK strategy that actually gives Italy the Med and turtles on Egypt.  In the end, the UK / US end up with the following in SZ91 at the end of UK4:

    1 CV w Ftr/Tac, 1 BB, 5 CR, 3 DD, 7 TT (with units to fill them).  I can grow the TT and ground units for the UK, but a lot of that depends on how obvious Germany is on its feign of Sea Lion and I may end up short a CR and DD to run blocker in SZ110 to lighten the Sea Lion attack if it is, indeed, coming.

    It generally includes a UK2 purchase of 1 TT with 1 Art/Inf in each S.African and Canadian Minor IC’s (28 IPC total, 3 IPC on an Inf in London if not SBR’d) and a UK3 purchase of a Ftr/CV in Canada on UK3 (to arrive in SZ91 on UK4).

    Makes the fleet a bit bigger with 2 CV w 1 Ftr/Tac on one, 1 Ftr on the other (Gib’s fighter can land on it on UK4), 1 BB, 5 CR, 3 DD, 9 TT with units to fill them at the end of UK4.  If Egypt has not fallen, its possible to make some huge dents in Italy very soon, much earlier than the Axis will get in striking distance of Moscow.

    I haven’t employed it yet but here are the intangibles:

    Sea Lion actually happening can create some issues, less TT, and more units on London

    Can lose the DD/TT in SZ106 limiting the UK to a single TT from SZ109 and how soon you can open up Brazil’s Infantry to load onto TT.

    G1 attacks on SZ110/SZ111 and how they occur.  I haven’t decided on the best move for fleets surviving either G1 attack - nor how many Ftr to scramble depending on the attacks they face.  I’d prefer to not toss aircraft out the window for the UK, but not scrambling at all and giving up your fleets opens up Sea Lion more than you think (Sets you back to Alpha 3.5 scenarios).

    In particular, I want the UK aircraft available to reinforce any US landing on US5 - the more that are alive, the harder it is for the Axis to retake S.France, N.Italy, Rome, Normandy, Holland, Denmark, Norway or even W.Germany if left lightly defended (Dropping that Major German IC to a Minor is a BIG DEAL, regardless of the losses you get for taking/losing it).

    I haven’t determined what to do it Italy decides to go for Gibraltar instead of Egypt early based on the UK fleet withdrawing and turtling on Egypt.

    I’m not sure how bad the consequences are of sending the UK BB and 1 Ftr/Tac from Calcutta in regards to Japanese moves.  From what I understand, Japan can J3 Calcutta if it is determined to regardless of what Calcutta does.  As such, I’d rather have the UK ship and Aircraft crushing the Axis hopes in the Atlantic/Med than shot down/sunk in the south pacific.


  • Spend - I absorbed your well-thought out post - thinking about it - will respond later. A lot to chew on -


  • @Stalingradski:

    Spend - I absorbed your well-thought out post - thinking about it - will respond later. A lot to chew on -

    Basics are, take the CV, CR from the Med down to SZ72.

    Move the UK BB from SZ37 to SZ75.

    Fly the UK Ftr/Tac from India to the CV in SZ72.

    Use the UK Ftr in Malta, Tac from the CV in SZ98, the DD from SZ98 and take out the Italian DD/TT in SZ96.  Fly the aircraft to Egypt.

    Retreat all the ground units from Alexandria to Egypt.  Use the TT from SZ98 to ferry Inf from Persia to Egypt.

    You can even get the UK Ftr from Gib to Egypt if you really think you need it by landing it in on UK1 in French Central Africa and on UK2 getting it into Egypt.  If you really want, you can also fly those aircraft that landed on the CV in SZ72 to Egypt as well to have 3 Ftr, 2 Tac to address any Italian aggression as early as I2.

    US1 spends 26 IPC on 2 TT 1 CR
    US2 spends 26 IPC on 2 TT 1 CR
    US3 adds the 5th TT, spends the rest on filling out infantry to fill those TT up with the Mech/Arm/Art.
    US4 US sends 1 Ftr to a potential CV purchase off Canada from UK3, 3 CR and 5 loaded TT to land in Morocco or Gib

    UK4 will be what I described reinforcing the US flotilla from an aggressive Axis move into SZ91 (potentially have the UK4 purchase be an AB in Gib to scramble any aircraft you can muster down there).

    Then unleash hell in wherever you choose (preferably Italy) and reinforce it with UK aircraft based out of the Med.


  • I like it - it helped that I could look at a map to follow your moves.

    Typically, I kill SZs 96 & 97 when I’m the UK, and use my Pacific Battleship to bolster the US fleet once it shows up in the Carolines - it can make the difference between moving forward or not.

    But, I like your purchases and logistics - do you make a play at all for Iraq before Italy gets it’s claws into it? I usually activate C Persia then assault Iraq next using aircraft from Egypt - if no Sealion threat, it’s a great place for an IC if Italy isn’t super active in the Med…


  • I believe in preserving UK starting assets until they can work in tandem with the US for a dual threat strategy.

    As I said, I have never run this against another person.  I have just run it against differing Italian moves against myself which is biased due to both sides knowing what the other is doing.  Albeit helpful in refining a strategy, nothing replaces an opponent reacting to it.

    Basically I look at it like this:

    I expect Moscow to withdraw for a showdown with Germany in Moscow.  This gives the Axis at least Leningrad, possibly Stalingrad by round 5.  If they win in Moscow, they need to control Cairo for the VC win.  I expect the long German march to Moscow to take until turn 7.

    So, with the potential for Moscow to fall, I play to hold Cairo.  I use the TT in SZ98 to first get that Inf and AA off Malta and into Egypt.  UK2 I get that TT over to SZ80 so I can reinforce Cairo with another 2 Inf from Persia on UK3.

    My plays generally see Cairo sitting around 8 Inf at the end of UK4.  Fortunately, Anzac has 2 Inf there to bump me to 10 Inf.  There will be 2 Art, 1 Mec and 1 Arm there as well.  I keep the French Inf in Syria, because I’d rather Italy have to put up to 4 Inf on Jordan and expose it to a potential UK counter. I can get as many as 3 Ftr and 2 Tac in Cairo as early as UK2 for a grand total of:

    1 AA, 10 Inf, 2 Art, 1 Mech, 1 Arm, 2 Tac, 3 Ftr without spending a single IPC or, in fact giving up any of my starting UK units except the DD used to take out the Italian DD/TT on UK1.

    Italy has to make a play for Iraq early, but with 2 Ftr/Tac in range of SZ98, it may choose to land in Syria instead.  I prefer to leave the French Inf there to try to deter this landing.

    I’ll strafe/attack Jordan if less than 3 Inf land there on I1.  However, anything later for Italian landings I actually leave alone.  Those units won’t get to Cairo in time for the Allied flotilla to be staged to land all across the European Map.

  • '18

    Adding some more thoughts to the Italy discussion:

    1. Control of the Med for Africa operations:  I don’t see how Italy can make a move for Africa if it doesn’t control the Med or have a Med fleet at all?  I like hearing that as a UK player you would take out the Italian BB/fleet in sz 97, as well as the Cruiser and transport in sz 96.  This is a totally different scenario than the game I recently played.  Moving the fighters from London makes a big difference.  However it is possible that if scrambled On G1 to help defend against attacks in sz 110/111 they may be lost.  I would certainly hope for that as it would make the chances of surviving the UK attack in sz 97 better.  On the other hand, is it worth it to lose the German fighters if you don’t gain control of the Med?  Have you seen games where Italy gets into Africa despite losing most of the Med fleet round one?

    2. Spendo’s Med strategy:  As the allies I would love to preserve all the starting fleet and come in with force at once.  As an Axis player I would love the UK to retreat out of the Med on round one because even if I can get into Africa for 4-5 rounds of play I will accumulate a lot of IPC’s, especially blitzing some tanks mid-south africa.  I will also make it difficult to retake Africa and will buy time for Europe.  If you dart out of the Med round one then Italy will achieve NO’s easier as well - all money to go into defending Europe and enlarging the Med fleet for the Allies to deal with.  I would love to see the strategy played out.  One question: If you move the Pacific UK BB onto the Atlantic map does it then move with the Atlantic turn phase and not the Pacific?  UK is the only country faced with this as it has two economies with two phases.

    3. Stalingradski Plan more realized: If UK is aggressive and the Italians lose their Med fleet, along with the ability to get into Africa, then I think the value in supplementing Barbarossa with Italians makes more sense.  Otherwise the Italians are only turtling in southern Europe, waiting, and watching their IPC growth peak early with the capture of the Greek peninsula.  The bigger question: If there isn’t a chance for Africa, does Germany initiate Barbarossa earlier?  I would like to know on what turn does Stalingradski attack Russia?

    Sadly, I don’t think I am helping much with insight as to attacks of opportunity for Italy.  At this point it is reactive towards UK and how aggressive they are.


  • @Field:

    One question: If you move the Pacific UK BB onto the Atlantic map does it then move with the Atlantic turn phase and not the Pacific?  UK is the only country faced with this as it has two economies with two phases.

    The two economies are separate, but the combat and noncombat moves are done together as one power.


  • I had assumed that London and Calcutta although separate economic entities act as a single entity for each phase of the turn.  The only difference being the Purchase and Collect Income phases occur at the same time but affect different resources and unit placement locations.

    I do know that you can spend resources from either economic center to obtain strategic upgrades - even splitting the cost between them… IE London could foot 2 IPC and Calcutta 3 IPC to get a die roll for a Tech upgrade that would affect both sides of the map.

    I really don’t see a huge change in the IPC swing for Italy without the UK fleet present.  In particular because there are at least 4, possibly 5 aircraft in Cairo.

    This is Italy’s play to take Cairo:

    I1 Buy 1 TT, Bank 3.  Take S.France, Tunisia, Sudan, Kenya, Greece, Bulgaria (you’ll need the Inf for I3 TT).  Collect on the scale of 24 IPC for 27 total IPC.
    I2 Buy 3 TT, 1 Arm. Move Kenyan unit to Sudan, TT 2 Arm, 2 Inf (Greece) 2 Inf (Rome) to Alexandria and meet up with Tobruk forces.  Move the 2 Art from S.France to N.Italy.  Move all 4 Inf from Bulgaria to Albania.
    Leaves you with 7 Inf, 1 Mech, 1 Art, 3 Arm in Alexandria.  End turn with 24 IPC (you didn’t take any valuable territories).
    I3: Buy 8 Inf in N.Italy. TT 2 Art, 1 Arm (N.Italy), 3 Inf (Albania) and Amphib Land on Cairo to meet up with Tobruk unit and possibly the Sudan Unit (UK can cut those down with 2 Inf, 1 Arm (UK1 - S.Africa - Congo - Sudan) and 3 Ftr 2 Tac.
    Italy then sends 10 Inf, 1 Mech, 3 Art, 3 Arm, 2 Ftr 1 Bomber and a BB and 2 CR Bombard against 10 Inf, 1 Mech, 1 Art, 1 Arm, 3 Ftr, 2 Tac.  Its a 70-30 battle in Italy’s favor - but it invested all its resources in taking it by I3.

    However, and here’s the crux:  I3 puts 8 Inf in N.Italy, which then move to Rome on I4.  Rome gets 3 more Inf + whatever land units survived Cairo on I4.  So at least 11 Inf.  The Allied Fleet in SZ91 at the end of I4 is big enough that the Italian fleet has to hide in SZ97/95 at this point under the cover of 2 Ftr.  The Allies can then move to retake N.Africa on US5, Cairo on US6 with two TT sets of reinforcements to hit S.France on US7.  Thats about the time Moscow would fall, if it did.  No VC win and Italy is bottled up with Allied reinforcements showing up every turn, slowly cutting down Italian gains and forcing Germany to reinforce it for a stalemate for multiple turns - which at this point is very hard to project.  Particularly if the Germans are beaten in Moscow.

    VC victory denied, any misplay by Italy and Rome could be lost too - in Particular not getting 8 Inf out on I3 in N.Italy or Italy losing its butt in Cairo.


  • FM7 - to answer your question - Italy opens Barbarossa on I3, and Germany follows on G4.

    To both FM7 and Spend - too much for my poor brain to handle tonight - I like the discussions - it gets molecules moving. I’ll try to take it all in and answer within the next couple days -

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