Need help with my Barbarossa



  • Just finished a game, it was another defeat for Germany. Here’s how games in my group typically go.

    G1 buy is the usual 2 transports/carrier build for the Sea Lion feint. I sink the UK fleet on turn 1, consolidate most of my infantry along the border with Russia, and attack on G2. The Russian player stacks everything he can on the frontier territories. As soon as I break through even one of these stacks, he retreats everything to Moscow, leaving 1 infantry in each territory. By the time I get to Moscow, it’s defended by 50 or 60 Russian troops and I simply do not have the numbers to break the stack.

    UK usually leaves the Atlantic alone for a few turns while it screws with Italy through Africa. The US player goes all Pacific until Japan is marginalized.

    So… what can I do to beat the stack? This has lost me the last few games and it’s starting to get really frustrating. Should I wait until turn 3 or 4 to attack instead? I feel that the longer I wait, the more infantry I’ll have to face in Moscow when I break through. Should I build ground units on G1 instead of ships? What should my buys look like on a turn-to-turn basis?



  • You can beat it by taking London on round 3 lol

    In 3.5 only bad dice (really bad dice) will stop you
    In 3.9 you need to take it on round 4 (again only really bad dice can stop you)

    this is if UK is doing everything in its power to beef up defenses on london so dont wait. (turn 4 USA is in no matter what so have london by then or gg)

    Dont forget to bomb londons IC and airbase on turn 2 and or 3

    pull back in the russian front and after sealion then go after russia.
    if russia gets really aggressive after sealion this is to your advantage as long as you have pulled back your forces.

    I dont think ive read very many places where it makes sense to not take london. (why not you can do it early and that is alot of cash and it cripples the allies)



  • US can’t really reach UK until US5, no?  Max movement for US is to SZ102 through US3.  US4 is one of many SZ’s, but can’t reach UK at the earliest until US5.  Even then it won’t arrive in force until later unless it entirely ignored the Pacific.

    So technically you have until G5 until get London under Axis influence, although as early as R3 you’ll see Moscow marching on Berlin?

    I still agree G4 is likely the best opportunity to remove London’s influence in the Atlantic map, just pointing out technicalities.



  • USSR cant do anything unprovoked til round 4.

    And like i said if you pull back on the USSR front and USSR plays aggressive this can be to your advantage.

    There is no point in waiting to take london, you are losing alot of money and increasing the chance of a quick take back by USA if you wait.

    If you wait to take london on G5 then USA can take it back that same round, then you are in real trouble.

    Need to take it earlier then beef it up a bit with some INF and destroyers to block.

    You dont need to rush to moscow, take it slow and never take anything you cant hold. Slowly increase your income while the USSR’s drop, very important dont trade territories with USSR if possible avoid that. At the same time mass INF in France territories and in London and take Iceland/scottland and erie (if it is no longer a nuetral) to keep allies from using them to stage aircraft.
    Also good to take gilbratar early.

    Italy will be free to take africa with london down, but it makes more economical sense for Italy to help Germany push through USSR.
    Can use Italy to take a territory and then Germany can hop thru with tanks and mechs or just fortify it so USSR cant take it back.

    make sure either germany or italy gets and holds the middle east though…



  • Creeping-Deth,

    I am in a similar situation as you describe. I did the same purchase as you G1, I eliminated UK navy, but I let Italy take France… Hopefully it pays off later. I want a strong Italy to rush Egypt and the Middle East. I’m planning a G2 Barbarossa, but I’m going to go hard for Leningrad, I might even be able to amphibous assault it G2, I think my opponent thinks it could be for Sea Lion.

    My concern for Germany is I have no real reenforcements to back up my stack. Did you find this to be a problem? What was your first target in Russia? I think Leningrad is the natural choice, especially for a G2 attack. I want to hit Russia before it gets too big, my opponent R1 bought Tanks when he saw me buy navy.

    Anyway, I only played one round today, as my friend was too hung over. Tomorrow we’ll finish it. I’ll post the results.


  • '12

    Creeping Death,

    If you are going for a straight up Barbarossa, this is what I do with the Axis.

    G1 - Do the the Sea Lion buy to force the UK to go defensive
    G2 - Buy all artillery, attack USSR
    G3 - Buy all mech infantry (buy this so that it can catch up with the stack moving towards Moscow)
    G4 - Buy all tanks
    G5 - Buy at least 3 strat bombers

    When you launch the attack on G2, you have to decide which way to go: North (take Leningrad) or to the South (towards Stalingrad).  I persontally perfer going north and hitting Leningrad, as you can use your navy to reinforce the attack.  Once Leningrad is taken, I always buy 3 tanks with their minor factor to help with the stack moving towards Moscow.  The Start Bombers bought on turn 5 can reach Moscow, so go ahead and attack the capital on turn 6.  Barring a massive intervention by the other allies, this strategy almost always allows me to take Moscow.

    A couple more things, if you are doing a Barbarossa attack, it is helpful to have the Italians move as quickly as possible across the Middle east… with Barbarossa, my goal with the Italians is to get to the Caucasus and put southern pressure on Russia.  If you can do this, you force the Russian player to divert forces away from Moscow

    I have used the Japanese to help with the attack as well.  Around J4, if you have pushed through China and controll any of the three territories that border Russia (Sikang, Tsinghai, or Kansu) a strategic bomber can reach Moscow from any of these territories.  With the Alpha 3 rules, I typically don’t attack Russia via Amur as this will not trigger the Mongolians to join the allies; however, if you have crushed the Chinese and are lined up near the Russian border around J3-J4, go ahead and open up an eastern front.

    I hope this helps!



  • @JeffM:

    I have used the Japanese to help with the attack as well. ��Around J4, if you have pushed through China and controll any of the three territories that border Russia (Sikang, Tsinghai, or Kansu) a strategic bomber can reach Moscow from any of these territories. ��With the Alpha 3 rules, I typically don’t attack Russia via Amur as this will not trigger the Mongolians to join the allies; however, if you have crushed the Chinese and are lined up near the Russian border around J3-J4, go ahead and open up an eastern front.

    Learned something new, never thought about the lack of consequence with the Mongols by moving in to Russia once through China.



  • @JeffM:

    Creeping Death,

    If you are going for a straight up Barbarossa, this is what I do with the Axis.

    G1 - Do the the Sea Lion buy to force the UK to go defensive
    G2 - Buy all artillery, attack USSR
    G3 - Buy all mech infantry (buy this so that it can catch up with the stack moving towards Moscow)
    G4 - Buy all tanks
    G5 - Buy at least 3 strat bombers

    When you launch the attack on G2, you have to decide which way to go: North (take Leningrad) or to the South (towards Stalingrad). � I persontally perfer going north and hitting Leningrad, as you can use your navy to reinforce the attack. � Once Leningrad is taken, I always buy 3 tanks with their minor factor to help with the stack moving towards Moscow. � The Start Bombers bought on turn 5 can reach Moscow, so go ahead and attack the capital on turn 6. � Barring a massive intervention by the other allies, this strategy almost always allows me to take Moscow.

    A couple more things, if you are doing a Barbarossa attack, it is helpful to have the Italians move as quickly as possible across the Middle east… with Barbarossa, my goal with the Italians is to get to the Caucasus and put southern pressure on Russia. � If you can do this, you force the Russian player to divert forces away from Moscow

    I have used the Japanese to help with the attack as well. � Around J4, if you have pushed through China and controll any of the three territories that border Russia (Sikang, Tsinghai, or Kansu) a strategic bomber can reach Moscow from any of these territories. � With the Alpha 3 rules, I typically don’t attack Russia via Amur as this will not trigger the Mongolians to join the allies; however, if you have crushed the Chinese and are lined up near the Russian border around J3-J4, go ahead and open up an eastern front.

    I hope this helps!

    This is an interesting strategy. I noticed though that the artillery buy on turn 2 wouldn’t be able to get to Moscow until turn 6, so do you just send in your infantry without artillery support?

    As to the other suggestions… I thought Sea Lion was a dead strategy for alpha 3 since Russia can now pounce on you before turn 4 if you take London. Considering my Russian player usually plays super defensive, this might be a really good idea. Does the Alpha 3 Sea Lion involve the 10 transports on turn 2 or is it a little different now?



  • For my Barbarossa (and by no means is this perfect), G1 I make my intention absolutely clear to go Barbarossa. So what if UK can build planes? He’ll

    a. Have been convoyed to around -10 income by UKE4
    b. have been fully strategically bombed by G2 (or 3 if rolls are bad for Germany)

    And thirdly, the US is much slower in to the war.

    So I build 2 art. and 2 tnk. and either 2 tech rolls or 1 fighter G1. Depending on Russia’s moves, I’ll attack G2 or G3. Usually I have a big enough force to send one group down to take Ukraine, and use builds from there to take Stalingrad and then Moscow, and another group to take Leningrad and then Moscow.



  • Techroll, how successful are your games you went early Barbarossa instead of London ?

    Im curious and im failing to see how the Axis will win with London never falling and Germany completely tied up in Russian til turn 7 or 8.

    @Rammstein:

    Creeping-Deth,

    I am in a similar situation as you describe. I did the same purchase as you G1, I eliminated UK navy, but I let Italy take France… Hopefully it pays off later. I want a strong Italy to rush Egypt and the Middle East. I’m planning a G2 Barbarossa, but I’m going to go hard for Leningrad, I might even be able to amphibous assault it G2, I think my opponent thinks it could be for Sea Lion.

    My concern for Germany is I have no real reenforcements to back up my stack. Did you find this to be a problem? What was your first target in Russia? I think Leningrad is the natural choice, especially for a G2 attack. I want to hit Russia before it gets too big, my opponent R1 bought Tanks when he saw me buy navy.

    Anyway, I only played one round today, as my friend was too hung over. Tomorrow we’ll finish it. I’ll post the results.

    I would never never do this, let Italy take southern france. UK can move all their fighters to France to defend and you risk losing alot more and possibly not even it getting it till round 2 (this would be very bad) besides Germany needs the money more. and Africa is not hardly worth too much effort anyhow



  • It’s easy to win with Barbarossa. With about 1 plane build per 2 turns and 3 subs/turn starting G2 (sometimes less depending on situation) it’s easy to keep England going nowhere, and Japan plus the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine can tie the US up.



  • makes sense i guess 😉



  • Id say,

    Round 1: carrier tranny build (feign sealion)
    Round 2: attacl leningrad(if its vulnerable/nice toys to kill)
    Round 3: move into the soviet border territories as he tries to take back lenin
    Round 4: take back lenin again, move closer to moscow with your main stack, can-opener with italy as much as you can
    Round 5+: focus on gaining economic advantage, have a large stack bordering moscow to keep him stuck there while you go for the money, to the south and north.

    Use japan to plow through china and take out siberia/kazak/novosibirsk areas and starve russia.

    My last F2F game I has russia down to 10 income and I was in the 70’s as germany.

    Use italy and Most of your buy then to keep the allies at bay till you feel like you are strong enough to take moscow, there is no real rush so long as you have alot of cash defending the atlantic front.  When I took moscow my last game, I had, 29 tanks, 20 mechs, 26 inf and 3 rtl with no planesvs his liek 12 tanks, 3 mechs, 12 rtl, and 30 some inf and 2 tacs 1 fig(i killed a fig and a tac earlier at lenin).  (granted he had alot less than normal because of his awkward buys and bad dice rolls on lenin counter attacks).

    The only rush is if you are in inminent danger on Wger.


  • '12

    This is an interesting strategy. I noticed though that the artillery buy on turn 2 wouldn’t be able to get to Moscow until turn 6, so do you just send in your infantry without artillery support?

    As to the other suggestions… I thought Sea Lion was a dead strategy for alpha 3 since Russia can now pounce on you before turn 4 if you take London. Considering my Russian player usually plays super defensive, this might be a really good idea. Does the Alpha 3 Sea Lion involve the 10 transports on turn 2 or is it a little different now?

    No, I think that Sea Lion is back on the table with the new changes made to Alpha 3 as of 2/8/12.  I haven’t gotten to play test the new rules; however, if indeed Sea Lion is viable again, then it may be worth it to threaten a UK with a G1 fleet buy.

    As for the Barbarossa Strategy, attacking on G2 and buying Art (G2), Mech (G3), Tanks (G4), and Start Bombers (G5) works pretty well if you go straight for Moscow.  This is by no means an “unstoppable” strategy, but it has worked well for me (it has probably worked 3 out of 4 times against Russian players of varying skill levels).  Here is a pic from an old game (alhpa 2) where I took the southern route and cracked Moscow.



  • Regarding the photo:

    1. What does 1 yellow chip represent?
    2. Russia is getting too much $$ right now–they’re taking up too many resources.


  • 2018

    I like to take the money won from the fall of France and invest in a major complex for the eastern front.  Build a large infantry force that will march north towards Lgrad once Barbarossa begins.  Force Russian player to decide between defending Lgrad or Moscow with infantry.  If I can get the Russian to split off some infantry it helps.  Concentrate all German forces into one attack.  Sometimes the Russian doesn’t split and I’ll take Lenningrad.  I send a smaller force south towards Stalingrad, but they veer north after the marshes to merge with main force right before the attack on Moscow.  I try and push a lot of infantry forward knowing that I can get armor and fighters forward later just prior to an attack.  I keep a lot of my aircraft in Germany to ward off allied invasion in the west and slowly build up a defense force there until I withdraw the Luftwaffe.  Has anyone else invested in a major IC for eastern front with success?



  • Basic outline.

    1. Protect your fleet and Atlantic flank with your G1 purchase.

    2. Use Norway during G2 & G3 to pool infantry into Finland.

    3. Purchases reflect your desire to crush Russia - which is not done with expensive units - starting G2, purchase a healthy dose of infantry (8-10 per round), sprinkle in some mechanized, an air unit, a naval unit. Stay balanced in your purchases. Be a machine.

    4. Through G4 - G6, choke back (somewhat) on infantry, build more armor/mech (I like 2 armor for every mech as a general rule).

    5. Use Italy to walk through the Balkans and toward the Ukraine in a continuous flow (3-4 infantry, steady and unyielding), and can-open the front whenever Russia gives you the opportunity. Reninforce newly taken Italian territories with large stacks of Germans. You’ll be surprised how few Germans you lose this way, and how many Italians you save.

    6. On G2, start adding 1-2 German infantry per round to Normandy. Always stay ahead of the Allies in defending this flank!

    7. With a northern force pooled in Finland (via transport shuck to Norway started on G1), and large infantry armies pooled in the Baltic area, Russia faces a crippling pincer attack in the Leningrad area. Mech units lurk behind the lines, ready to go north or south depending upon Russian defensive positions.

    8. When you are on Moscow’s doorstep, buy tactical bombers in Novgorod and Strategic bombers in W Germany, as you can afford. Tacs are brilliant with your armored forces, and Strats can reach from your capital.

    9. Enjoy the show. The details are far, far too many (and way too variable) to go into, but if you take this basic strategy you can create an absolute monster.

    As a post script - never, ever abandon your infantry purchases. I disagree with others who advocate straight mechanized purchases at any point. I never buy less than 6 infantry per turn, and my optimal purchase is 10 infantry per turn. If you do this, and don’t deviate, you will pulverize Russia in time. If you don’t, you might just show up ready for the kill shot and realize you don’t have enough boots on the ground, or that your flanks are dangerously exposed.



  • elwell - my issue with a major IC, let’s say in Romania, is that for the same money I could have purchased 10 infantry and walked them in the same amount of time to the same space. Instead, I try to concentrate on making sure I have no break in my supply line.

    Nothing is more intimidating to your opponent than seeing a steady, continuous flow of 6 or 8 infantry, unending, unyielding, coming straight at you. Especially when Germany has a slowly growing force of 10, then 12, then 14 armor ready to pounce right behind the infantry. Not to mention a lethal Luftwaffe! As Russia, when you see this, you realize you can kill one, or two stacks of infantry, but after that, you will fall back, and you will die.

    Germany has all the buying power it needs to start the game, in my opinion. You can build armor in Moscow, once it falls :evil:


  • 2018

    Stalingradski - I think my approach is nearly the same.  I purchase the Major IC to save time in turns needed to march the infantry forward.  Would it not take two extra turns to move your stacks of infantry from Germany’s closest Major IC to Moscow?  I favor the heavy dose of infantry purchases that you advocate with the sprinkling in of more expensive units, but since I don’t spend any money on additional ships for Atlantic fleet (combined with French money) I think there isn’t a break in flow of infantry.  My opponents have always gone all in to sink the atlantic fleet and over time I adapted to building a large defense force in the west as a deterrent.  I have not ever attempted the sea lion invasion unless it was later in the game and Russia had fallen.

    1. What do you purchase on G1 to defend Atlantic fleet with? Doesn’t this purchase interrupt flow of infantry eastward?

    2. Does the use of Italian forces in Barbarossa thin out your ability to hold North Africa?

    3. Do you keep any garrison of troops in Norway so as to keep the NO bonus?  Since I usually lose the Atlantic fleet I can’t shuttle more troops as you do to add to a Northern pincer force.

    You seem like an experienced player so hearing your point of view on this is appreciated.



  • elwell - I appreciate the questions.

    I can absolutely see why a Major IC works, but I have a hard time pulling the trigger, as Germany already has the purchasing power on G1 to buy 20 units. Before long, that number is 23, 26, or 29 depending on how you partition France. Around G6 or G7, once Novgorod has been taken and held, that number climbs by 3 more… so partly, the decision comes from my desire to save IPCs, and fill the factories I have (which never happens!).

    Secondly, rather than 10 infantry = a Major IC - let’s say instead it is 5 armor. I was wrong in my last post about the infantry being in Romania at the same time - the infantry would be one step ahead in your scenario, accelerating your Barbarossa, as you said. But 5 armor purchased in East Germany would be in Romania the same time the factory produced its first 5 armor.

    1. I see the Atlantic fleet as a way to save what you start with and set the Allies back in the game of initiative. As an Allied player, if I see no German fleet/air combo threatening naval purchases, I’ll be rapidly applying pressure to the Atlantic seaboard and Med, without as much fear of losing my fleet. Like many people, I choose to buy a carrier and two transports on G1 - when backed up by the airbase in West Germany, and combined with your original battleship and cruiser, it is as close to unassailable as you can get, and is poised to do many things… head to SZ91 and help Italy get NOs, create a credible threat to London (even if I have no real intention of a Sealion, I’d still take it if someone gave it to me), create a real threat to Novgorod over the top, or create the ability to bring your navy into the Baltic to hit (or reinforce) multiple Russian sites at once (Vyborg/Novgorod/Baltic States). Or, do some combination of all of these.

    Secondly, if you add a naval piece and air unit (fighter) every turn thereafter, the Allies find themselves continually climbing uphill to overcome Germany’s Atlantic shield. The whole idea is to maintain the initiative - make the Allies react to you - while buying extended time for Barbarossa.

    The fleet can also be handy for several early turns parked in SZ109, assuming the US is neutral. Combined with a G2 pulverizing of London’s IC and Air/Naval bases, it slows Britain down considerably in the economic war.

    Yes, the naval purchase on G1 thins out the initial push toward Russia by 30 IPCs worth of equipment (the same as a Major IC), but it buys you an incredible amount of time and flexibility. It allows you to continue to dictate the tempo of the Battle for the Atlantic, for a time. Like anything, pay attention to when it is time to back off. The Allies will eventually be able to overtake your navies through sheer spending power. BUT. They have paid the price of losing Moscow.

    2. Yes, the use of Italian forces in Europe diminishes the ability to fight in Africa. It is a huge trade-off. I usually wait until just the right moment, and actually pull hardware out of Africa, rather than keep sending more. My Italian purchases are based on inflating economy very quickly with NOs, buying a carrier when I am at the peak, and buying destroyers and infantry from there on out. I park in SZ92, backed up by an airbase and German fighters (remember, buying one per turn!), and forcing the Allies to deal with two fleets.

    Africa is a sideshow. With Italy’s help in Southern Russia, the force against Russia is overwhelming. I’m not saying I wouldn’t make attacks of opportunity with Italy, or raid the African coast, or take and hold Egypt if I could, but remember that if Russia falls, the game is trending toward an Axis victory most of the time.

    With Germany reinforcing Italian territories as they take them in Russia, you’ll be surprised to see Italy’s economy maintained. N Ukraine, Ukraine, and Rostov are all worth 2 each, and are the gateway to the money in the Caucasus.

    3. I don’t keep any troops in Norway, because I depend on my fleet/air in SZ112 to cause headaches for the Allies. Before they can land, they have to deal with a bunch of tough defensive units and still have enough muscle left to land boots on the ground.

    If the US goes hog wild to take out the German and Italian fleets - then I guarantee Japan is running wild as well. In that case Germany’s purchases of lots of infantry and a dedication to fighters looks even better.

    I also agree with you that Germany needs to dedicate resources to the Atlantic flank. The final challenge the Allies face is that with the presence of credible Axis fleets/air power, they will have a hard time having any follow-up to an amphibious landing in France. It’ll probably be a one way trip.



  • If you ever see that the Allies have enough threat to destroy your Atlantic fleet, play conservatively and pull back into the Baltic.  No reason to lose the fleet when it helps so much.  You’ll never lose Norway with a good Baltic presence.



  • Instead of spending $30 on a major IC, 30 of the infantry you build each turn in Germany could be mechanized infantry.  Those replacements will keep your infantry/artillery and armor/tactical combos hitting strong at the front as it marches east 1 territory per turn.  With that moster coming North, the Russians might move units from Ukraine to Moscow and then the Italians mop up the south.



  • I agree with Vance, OOB Major IC Romania was key to Barbarossa, but in +3.9 the Major Berlin and easily-capturable Minor Ukraine means that you don’t need the production.



  • @Alsch91:

    If you ever see that the Allies have enough threat to destroy your Atlantic fleet, play conservatively and pull back into the Baltic.  No reason to lose the fleet when it helps so much.  You’ll never lose Norway with a good Baltic presence.

    Quoted for Truth.  Same can be said about just about any Navy for that matter.  The units are too expensive to throw to the wind, except is the most desperate of measures.



  • If your playing Alpha +3

    Turn one

    1. Sink UK ships and build some navy and/or bombers. (like Sub,DD and bmb save4)
    2. Dont loose mecanized inf or tanks vs Frace! Mabye drop normandy? (you can still pop out 10 trannies if you save 4)
    3. Drop Yugoslavia. Or attack it for one round and retreat to Romania with South Germany stack.
    4. Move every unit possible into position to take AND hold baltic round 2

    Turn two

    1. Take baltic and buy 10artillery and some other land or air units depending on the situation.
    2. Take and hold baltic.

    Turn three

    1. Buy mostly mobile units and air (if needed)
    2. Take, hold if possible, Novgorod.

    Italy can help with attacking from the south via Iran!

    You should be on your way to Moscow soon enough!


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