Russian 3ipc NO

@the-spaceman said in The Sneaky Russian:

Hey Everyone,

I corrected some of your numbers since they were off.

Just came up with an oddball idea and am wondering if anyone has tried it or whether it would make sence, ruleswise and competitively.

In OOB trying to gain extra Russia income in this way is a longtime and widely accepted strategy. Most Axis Players will do their best to deny this outcome. In BM3 they removed the possibility for Africa and the Middle East income as most Players felt this was kind of a cheesy rule for Africa and the Middle East and meant more for Europe.

The Goal
Russia gets 3 IPCs for every Italian/German or Pro-axis territory.
Persia IPCs +3
Iraq IPCs+2 +3
Tobruk.IPCs.+3
Lybia IPCs +1 + 3
Ethiopia +1 + 3
Italian Somalialand + 3

22 IPCs for Russia

Finland + 2 + 3
Norway +3 + 3

11 IPCs for Russia

Total + 33 IPCs for Russia

Methods.
Group 1 (depends on German DOW)
The forces in and around Leningrad should be able to take out the Finland/Norway forces maybe with some extra tanks/planes built in Leningrad.

Pretty unlikely. Most Axis Players are going to bring two additional units to Norway on G1 giving the Axis 9 ground units. Add in German and Italian planes and only a major push by the Russians would have any chance to taking Finland and Norway. If the Russkies tried this, one of two things are going to happen, 1) Moscow is going to fall with so many troops in the north or 2) the Germans will divert their army north and wipe out the Russian Army Group North on the cheap.

Group 2 (Turns 1-2)
The 2 mobile units in Stalingrad go south activating Persia and then taking Iraq by about turn 2-3, with help of Iraninan infantry and maybe a aircraft. 2 inf from caucasus go south also.
(not sure if tanks can blitz through empty neutrals? It states friendly or enemy but is pro allied counted as friendly?)

Armor cannot blitz through a friendly aka pro-allied neutral. Most commonly you will see UK take Northwest Persia to open this route south for the Russians. In addition, the UK will strafe or try to clear Iraq for Russian capture. This one is a given if UK is willing to give it up. There is a LOT of debate if this is a wise move or not. Helps Russia in the short run and hurts UK in the long run.

Group 3 (Turns 3-5)
A short hop from Iraq is Tobruk/Lybia. The single tank might be all you need to grab both of these if the UK player has been helpful by clearing the med of Italian Shipping and strafing any Italian units in africa.

Again, the Axis Player is going to be doing their best to make sure Tobruk, Libya and possibly Tunisia do not fall into Russian hands. This is definitely a legitimate strategy for UK to try and clear those territories for Russian occupation. Very powerful if successful.

Group 4 (Turns 3-5)
Another part of this strategy involve the UK now really going fully pro communist. The British use their transport in the persian gulf to send 1-2 Iranian (now Russian) infantry to Africa to land in Italian Somalialand by about turn 4-5. If the UK hasnt already grabbed Ethiopia as well they can pick this one up too. On T1 the UK should pull units out of Anglo Egytian Sudan and then counter attack the Italian units in UK coloured territories. We dont want UK getting 1 IPC for ethiopia when its worth 4 to the russians.

If the Italian Player allows the UK to clear Ethiopia and Italian Somaliland easily they are doing a piss poor job. Taking one of the two is a very good possibility for the Russians and if the UK is willing to risk losing a plane or two possibly both are up for grabs.

Group 5 (Turns 6-7)
Bulgaria +1/4 Albania +1/4 Rumania+3/6. If the Strategy is working so far keep it Rolling with the Russians advancing through Southern Europe for +14 IPCs. If these areas are lightly defended UK can Can-opener them with bombers flying out of bases in the med

Never going to happen. No matter what happens in the Middle East and Africa the Germans are going to be on the doorstep of Moscow so no Russians are heading west.

Results.
The additional 30 IPCs for Russia will counter any losses Germany has inflicted. Maybe keeping Russias production around 40-50 even when the Germans are at the gates of Moscow.

Group 2 and 3 are easily taken if UK agrees to standard cooperation and Group 4 if a higher level of cooperation is achieved.

Group 1 requires a tough fight and will probable result in heavy losses of men and territories as well.

The Group 5 is the fantasy scenario and represents a “winning More” strategy

Conclusion.
The kicker for me in this strategy seems to be the ablity to turn zero IPC territories into 3 IPC territories. This includes Tobruk and Italian Somalialand. There is no reason that the British would want these as they gain no benefit.

The other practical benefit is that bumping russian IPC output puts boots on the ground where they are most needed.

The main questions are around the speed in which Russia can move to capture these territories vs the speed that Germans can attack?

Secondly does the benefit to Russia outweigh the cost in units lost and the cost to UK of not capturing these territories?

In summary, I would say it is very easy for the Russians to get $3 out of Africa and very possibly $6. If they get $9 or $12 that is great though unusual. The Middle East for $5 is a given if UK is willing to give it up and risk a plane or two. Europe is never going to happen unless in the end game and Norway/Finland is a lot more difficult and risky than you may realize.

Excellent strategizing and thinking!

@Arthur:

You might as well issue an R1 DoW against Japan; at our gaming group we generally assume that Russia is at war unless stated otherwise.  So far I haven’t seen any reason in non-BM games to not opt for immediate war.

This makes perfect sense with experienced players, but I do remember a game where I, playing Russia, managed to delay a Japanese attack for quite a few turns by claiming that we had always been on good terms and that I had never done anything at all to damage Japan’s interests.  :-D

@ShadowHAwk:

@Caesar:

@ShadowHAwk:

@BusaRider29:

@Caesar:

So unless you’re going to put at least 6 ICP’s worth of units, their is no point breaking that bonus.

Good point.

Questionalble, would you allow a bomber to station there 1 round if it can take out 1-2 japan transports for free?

Sure the 5 NO is annoying but slowing japan down again is also good as more US stuff goes towards germany afterwards.

Not unless USSR has the advantage against western Axis and my reason for this is that USSR cannot defend the east and the NO for Lend-Lease will almost be used against Germany so I am not letting US have it easier because I can’t.

Its a team game for the allies remember.

If your actively helping japan as russia by protecing their transports then US will need to spend more against japan which means less against italy and germany.
Which will result in more germans hitting russia.

Yes however if Germany and USSR play a “perfect game”, Germany regardless will beat USSR in G40 which is why USSR not only has to rely on Lend Lease but also need physically help from the allies. So in this sense, it cripples USSR to allow US to move into its country if those same units are not going to stop western Axis who already have a win over USSR. And taking into account that US with all of there NO can already outspend Japan from J1 even helps my case in this situation.

I’ve thought some more about the details of this strategy. Firstly, it is not advised against a G1 DOW. So if we proceed on the assumption there is no G1 DOW, I like these builds/moves:

place 2 inf in Stalingrad

move the 2 inf in Caucasus to Kazakhstan - China bound.

move a tank to Turkmenistan.

move a AA gun towards China

remaining 2 mecs + 1 tank + planes move towards China.

UK West India inf activates East Persia

That way you can still take Iraq with a G2/G3 DOW.

If there is no G2 DOW, move the Stalingrad inf + Turkmenistan tank to Caucasus and leave Persia for the UK. Take NW Persia USSR3 & Iraq USSR4. With a G2 DOW, Turkmenistan tank activates Persia and Stalingrad inf proceed to the eastern front with Germany. Tac bomber positions to support the attack on Iraq USSR3.

Downside - are too many troops being stripped from the Eastern Front?

I did read somewhere a post or repost where Larry agreed with adding the Rus bomber to the G40 starting set after the 2nd edition was released. He was just concerned how the rest of the world would know about the bomber. Could anybody confirm this and/or post a link?
Thanks.

I’m curious which statements here are differing from what you’ve seen in the league? Do you feel that this NO is playing differently or is more relevant in the league?

I suppose its important to realize that any statements you read here on the boards are largely anecdotal. It comes down to how much of what you read accords with your own experience. And of course results will differ depending on what conditions you typically play with. For example, I noticed just now you mentioned the Russian bomber in another thread. In G40, and in other prior A&A games, many people have used additional Russian aircraft as an expedient alternative to the open pre-placement bid. An Extra Russian fighter in AA50 for example, or a Bomber in G40. In G40 specifically, that option is preferable to me, than an open bid for UK. Its the sort of set up change you really have to force though, because given the option most people would take that same bid amount and instead throw down 4 infantry or 3 art units in separate territories to spread the advantage, or a pair of subs to break a naval battle. Anyway, the point being that if you are using a Russian bomber in your games regularly, then chances our you’ll be seeing different results from people who try other balancing options. Beyond this, there is also the No Tech aspect, or things like whether or not players are using standard dice rules or low luck rules. All this stuff can skew the results in a given set of games, or provide somewhat different play-balance results from the games of people who play other ways.

I will say this about G40, if you play standard dice, there is a fairly substantial swing potential on sz 110 and sz 111, not to mention with casualties in France. This can be a pretty big deal for an opening battle that sets the stage for the whole game. The results there can be a lot more consequential than say Classic/Revised when a transport hit, or a destroyer dudded out was in the opening round. The old German battleship headache comes to mind. Or take for example how in Revised the swing on the W. Russia battle could really effect the whole game in a massive way, such that some players would just quit outright in the opening round, if the dice didn’t go their way. Something similar can occur here (though perhaps not quite as extreme) with sz 110 and 111. If the Luftwaffe trades well in those battles it can be a huge boon for Axis. If they trade poorly it can be a small nightmare for G. Low Luck can control for that to a certain extent, but what you gain in consistency by using LL during the opening round, you lose out on in dynamism during the endgame. This is why I tend to prefer dice since they are so unpredictable for the endgame, though I appreciate the place for LL and understand why so many are fond of it. Still even a small bid disrupting either of those battles, or the battles in the med, can take it from a risky swing to a clear and obvious choice, especially under LL conditions.

So all that is just to say that the conventions in your playgroup, the typical bid, what sort of rules you option in or out, can really affect the patterns that emerge.

You’ll probably have noticed as well, that because A&A uses a very fixed set up and involves a number of scripted first round battles, that players often use a technique that you might call mirroring. Where players tend to model their strategies and opening moves, on things that they’ve seen stronger opponents do. Adopting the strategies that beat you last time, we might call it. This happens a lot after a board first comes out, or especially with players who are new to the game. So what happens is a kind of gameplay evolution, that selects for the best opening plays and weeds out the poorer ones over time. So right after a new board comes out everyone is excited, since the playing field is leveled, and nobody really knows how to exploit the map. Very quickly though, players start adopting standard buys and standard openings, until at some point (after a year say) someone hits on a strategy that is very dominant, which never remains secret very long. Soon variations in it get more popular, until eventually it becomes a scripted move (something everyone does.) Its usually at this point, if the advantage is clearly going one way, to one side over the other, that people start seriously examining bid solutions.

Whats interesting about all this, is that if you are playing with someone who is inexperienced, and does something totally batshit crazy, that you wouldn’t expect anyone to do ever, sometimes that sort of game can actually get entertaining as well as challenging. Since you really don’t know how to predict the erratic behavior of the newb. These games can be fun, since they force all sorts of weird decisions on you. Like wow, he built that? I guess I have to go destroy it now, and do something I wouldn’t usually do haha.

I agree though, from an archival standpoint, its nice to have a league and a way to track what sorts of things are happening in games (what sort of bids are being used for example, and what opening moves.) The overall tally Axis wins to Allied wins. But even there, the nature of the dice can be pretty nuts in providing different experiences.

All this is just to clarify something that it might have been worth saying at the outset. When I talk about game “Balance” or “Balance by Sides” what I am really referring to is the ‘feeling’ or ‘sense’ among both players that the starting conditions provide a roughly even shot for either to prevail. There’s no way to be really absolute about this, since as soon as you roll the dice in a single round of combat, you shoot off into so many different variables that its probably impossible to say anything with certainty… eg. whether a bad roll somewhere can be recovered by an amazing one somewhere else, later on. So really what we a striving for is the sweet spot, where the feeling of balance is the same for both players at the outset. Where one person isn’t constantly grumbling about how the odds are totally stacked against them from the get go, or how if they don’t win battle X, “its basically all over!” I’m not sure how much you could learn from seeing my games in an after action, since I’m perhaps not as cut throat as others, and I like to experiment a lot (often with game mechanics.) I don’t mind losses and haven’t bothered to keep a running tally on anything.

If I’m in the lobby and I have more time to play, I also almost never concede defeat, at least until I see the deep endgame ;) Since that’s the one that fascinates me most in A&A games! The deep endgame, for those unfamiliar with how I use the term in A&A, is how things play after capitals have already fallen. So in Classic or Revised or 1942.2 the Deep Endgame is when you are down to just 4 nations. In AA50 when you are down to 5 etc. Another way to think about it is the gameplay when W. Allies can take over Russian land directly because the capital has fallen.

Pretty good at grinding it out, since even a losing game can be entertaining, and it teaches you about the production spread and the importance of the center ;) But now I’m just rambling.

Is it the general premise of this thread (that Russia’s NOs are too weak, and virtually pointless) that you find problematic? Or the proposed solution as a bid alternative? I guess I’m just a little confused where you think we’re running off track. Most of the results posted in that league forum for g40 games (at least for the last several months) show Allies being bid out consistently, often at above +10 ipc. So I feel that it supports the general position of game unbalance in favor of Axis. I’m not sure what bearing any of those games would have on my proposed solution right now, since those games are virtually all using pre-placement bids. What I have suggested here is a standard income modification for an NO as an alternative to what people are currently doing, which is bidding pre-placement. Does that make more sense from the perspective of a bid replacement/balance perspective?

@questioneer:

Romanian IC???- no way, Larry killed that in Alpha +2- its too much overkill and retricts options to Axis always doing Barbarossa. All Germany does G1 is upgrade, build and steamroll Russia- too much- bad idea IMHO

Indeed, this would push the game in a certain direction…

@Pvt.Ryan:

By the way welcome to the forums Gamegeek. Have fun and don’t mess anything up  :-D

Thank you very much.  I’ve been lurking for a while.  :)