Sealion vs. Barbarossa



  • So. What do you do? Do you attack Britain or USSR?

    Explain!

    I pick Barbarossa because UK is very difficult to hold with a coordinated US counterattack, and by the time you succesfully Sealion, Russia’s knocking on your door. IMHO the Luftwaffe can hold of Britain.


  • Customizer

    Both.  I win more games with Sealion by far, but barbarossa is more interesting.



  • Sealion- Determins the game in a few turns, risky as hell

    Barbarossa- More likely to suceed, allows for a long and fun game

    IMO Sealion takes the fun out of a long game, because if Germany holds out and keeps russia at bay while holding england, its game over.



  • Lebenstrum in the East!!



  • @GeneralT:

    Sealion- Determins the game in a few turns, risky as hell

    Barbarossa- More likely to suceed, allows for a long and fun game

    IMO Sealion takes the fun out of a long game, because if Germany holds out and keeps russia at bay while holding england, its game over.

    It’s the opposite from what i have seen.

    Barb- game ends by round 7

    Sealion- Game usually lasts upwards of 10+ rounds before a winner is seen.


  • '10

    There should be a 3rd option for that poll: Decision between Barbarossa and Sealion depends of the result of G1 and allies moves.


  • Customizer

    @Axisplaya:

    There should be a 3rd option for that poll: Decision between Barbarossa and Sealion depends of the result of G1 and allies moves.

    Absolutely.  What I do depends on what Russia and UK do for me.



  • Crush Russia!



  • @Axisplaya:

    There should be a 3rd option for that poll: Decision between Barbarossa and Sealion depends of the result of G1 and allies moves.

    Interesting thought. What might make the difference for you?


  • Customizer

    Few things.  Axisplaya and I think alike on this.  If the Siberian inf stay put or not, if UK hits Italian fleets, all out defense of London looks likely, if my G1 opening blew up in my face (and it has), or UK doesn’t take Sealion seriously.



  • Play the board and the allied moves and the outcome of R1; however, I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention that since Alpha 3, I’m 100% sea lion – my failed attempt was with 12 transports, so I might not go for it anymore when I don’t take Normandy.  There was another game where I didn’t take Paris, and would have gone Italian-heavy-Barbarossa but we stopped playing.

    Certainly with the new set up, if I fail to knock out 106, and I lose planes somewhere, and if the allies are preparing a strong sea lion counter, I might just might be persuaded not to go for it.

    The problem is - until I’m actually beaten in a game where I take London, I feel like I need to keep going for it.


  • '10

    @corriganbp:

    The problem is - until I’m actually beaten in a game where I take London, I feel like I need to keep going for it.

    Don’t worry man, it’s coming. We’re gonna solve this problem for you.

    😄 :lol: 😉


  • Customizer

    Yeah, the Allies can win even if Germany pulls off a successful Sealion.  Usually, I have found that happens when Germany has to put so much stuff into taking London that the Russians end up rolling over the German forces in the East.
    In one game, Germany took London and it never got liberated.  The Americans took Rome, liberated Paris and with the Russians just put the squeeze on Berlin, all with a rather sizable force still sitting on England.  If I remember right, the German transports were not adequately defended and ended up within range of angry American aircraft.  All of those tanks and men sitting on England sure could have been used in Germany.



  • I feel that if the USSR cranks out tanks and more tanks with its builds, Sealion has the potential to leave you too open in the East.  It has in my experience, however, forced a major commitment in resources from the US player, weakening their potential in the Pacific.



  • Interesting thoughts ATrain, as Russia I build 6 inf. (Ukraine/Leningrad) and the rest mech/tanks.

    Sometimes I’ll build arty, but I feel that inf. are a strong weapon for USSR.



  • Have to go with depends on UK/SU buys and moves. Either way I am likely to commit to a G1 buy of carrier and 2 transports as I feel I can utilize them either way. After that I need to see what develops. I will be more inclined to go the Sea Lion route if SU is buying infantry/mecha infantry.



  • Barbarossa all the way, if you take London thats great, you still need two Russian victory cities or three depending on how the Italians are doing with Cario. Plus the fact that you have to spend big on the transports for sealion you effectivly give the USSR a huge advantage in terms of man power on the eastern front.


  • TripleA

    sealion is better, you take it over g3 or g4 then pack up all the guys and hit russia leaving it completely empty. usa should liberate it in a few turns but by then UK has a weak complex and no cash anyway. (how soon he liberates depends on if he can drop enough to hold it against u reclaiming it or if somehow you lose your transports or have to put it out of range).



  • It has to be Barbarossa!

    More skill + art combined. Sealion feels like a cheat move to me. Anyone can do it, and then it comes down to dice. Oooh, how fun. If you want a dice game, just go out in the parking lot and chuck some dice on the pavement.

    Barbarossa is a dance of death with Russia… mobility + smart and timely purchases + deliberate and methodical aggression + wise Italian play = an amazing amount of fun, and a longer game. Win or lose.

    Sealion = “I just want to win”.

    Barbarossa = “I want to create a masterpiece as I attempt to win”.

    Two very different experiences.



  • @Stalingradski:

    It has to be Barbarossa!

    More skill + art combined. Sealion feels like a cheat move to me. Anyone can do it, and then it comes down to dice. Oooh, how fun. If you want a dice game, just go out in the parking lot and chuck some dice on the pavement.

    Barbarossa is a dance of death with Russia… mobility + smart and timely purchases + deliberate and methodical aggression + wise Italian play = an amazing amount of fun, and a longer game. Win or lose.

    Sealion = “I just want to win”.

    Barbarossa = “I want to create a masterpiece as I attempt to win”.

    So very true

    Two very different experiences.



  • Why can’t we have like 5 units added to UK? This would make sea lion a lot harder, and sealion T3 only be open on turn 4. What happened to those 330 thousand units that were apparently taken off the beaches of dunkirk?


  • TripleA

    the thing is, not everyone has their sea lion strategy down yet as some people still defend UK/try to maintain a naval instead of taking UK then abandoning it to race Moscow, before UK is liberated and USA becomes a threat to europe.

    When I play it is easy to crush UK then turn around drive the russians out of the balkans back to moscow before france/italy/germany is seriously threatened. Once Russia is done, the game is super over.

    There are two problems about sea lion.

    I don’t mind UK getting conquered. Just if UK gets liberated… it should recover faster. The complex being nerfed to 3 combined with the crappy income generated… is really rough. I find that you can pack UK men on USA boats and drop them off the next turn is better than UK buying their own naval… you actually get more boots on the ground per turn much quicker. Or you can use UK’s 3 production a turn to buy naval pieces for USA or if germany is buying lots of air perhaps UK will buy naval pieces to protect USA naval (so usa can focus on dropping big payloads instead of carriers) and place a few men in africa to ship around (assuming you still have the transport down there).

    So with both allied and axis strategies not being fully developed by a majority of the community… the game balance itself is skewed.

    Allies have always been harder to play as they require more planning in order to maximize the amount of men you drop per turn into europe or plan ahead and move pieces to wise places in the pacific.
    ~
    Also countering barborossa has a few school of thoughts. 1) archangel shuffle defense 2) france first 3) shutting down italy.

    I do feel that cutting the germans out of Norway/Sweden/Finland is good start for UK. no point trading men with germany before taking that out that production.


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