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Heavy transports and special forces



  • Heavy Transports (planes) $10 have same movement as SB and can carry 3 Inf and/or 3 Special Forces (max 3) per major powers. Special Forces $5 Att3 Def1 (max 5) per major power. We also still allow SB to carry 1 Inf as in the older verisions. Comments?


  • Customizer

    Sounds like some good ideas, but I don’t think Strat bombers should carry infantry at all.  Bombers are for bombing and transport planes are for infantry.  Also, transport planes should only carry a max of 2 infantry or special forces.  Transport ships can only carry 2 infantry so transport planes shouldn’t be able to carry more.

    Any thoughts on differing abilities for transport planes on combat moves vs. non-combat moves?  Some have suggested that transport planes only be allowed to carry 1 infantry on a combat move and 2 infantry on a non-combat move.  Personally, I think that’s too restrictive.
    Also, some have suggested that transport planes can only load at an airbase.  I’ve seen a few carry it further to say they can also only off load at an airbase.  I would be okay with only loading at an airbase but I think they should be able to off load in any territory.
    What are your opinions on this?


  • Customizer

    The Imperious Leader with others helping have developed what IMHO are the best overall rules for Air Transport. They are as follows:

    Air Transport(non-combat) of up to TWO infantry types can be made and must
    START and END at Airbases you and/or your Aliies control.

    Paratroop Drops(combat) of ONE unit can be made up to two zones behind enemy lines(dependant on aircraft range) and must START from an Airbase but not necesarily end at one.

    The reason for the Airbase Start/End is to represent the additional infrastructure that makes Air Transport possible.

    The reason that only one Paratrooper may be dropped is to represent the additional equipment that the Paratroopers carry.

    IMHO a “Heavy Transport” carrying THREE Paratroops/Infantry would be too
    game-changing. I don’t recall any 4-engine American Transports being used for Paratroop duty in WW2.

    IMHO these rules seem to be best overall concerning Air Transport/Paratroop Drops for A&A use.

    “Tall Paul”


  • Customizer

    Everyone,

    Just as an afterthought I’ll post a couple of pics of my Paratroopers painted by “Allworkandnoclay”. Since I consider them “Special Forces” types I had their division units shoulder patches painted on their bases instead of my standard American insignia.

    These represent the 11th Airborne “Angels”, 17th Airborne(jumped the Rhine with “Monty”), 82nd Airborne “All-Americans”, and the 101st “Screaming Eagles”.

    I hope you enjoy them and they might inspire others to utilize some Paratroops and/or paint some of their units

    “Tall Paul”

    usairforce1.jpg


  • Customizer

    And from the back so as to see the painting details.

    “Tall Paul”

    usairforce2.1.JPG



  • Our group has not used the taking off from an airbase rule but that does make a lot of sense. We might try that in our next contest. I also agree that 3 might be a little much (it used to be 5), which could be devasting if you left a key territory lightly defended. Also, TP - love the painted pieces.


  • Customizer

    Crusaders1 and Others,

    With no “Fog of War” in Axis & Allies it only seems appropriate that if you want to make a devastating attack that you should have to build up an appropriate force.

    And by the same conclusion, if your adversary defends against your CAPABILITIES instead of what he thinks you’ll do he should be in a position to counter it. Being able to “SEE” your enemy’s capabilities should be paramount in your game. It also makes the attacker use a little “finese” in disguising his attacks.

    I’m glad you liked my painted Paratroopers. I also have some ParaMarines which were Marine Raiders that were also parachute-trained. They were
    nick-named “Chutes”. Here’s some pics.

    “Tall Paul”

    marineairforce1.jpg


  • Customizer

    And the ParaMarine Raiders from the back.

    “Tall Paul”

    marineairforce2.jpg


  • Customizer

    I still think allowing only 1 paratrooper per transport plane is too low.  Basically, a paratrooper is an infantry unit.  Why would anyone go out the expense of using the transport plane to just bring 1 more infantry into the battle?  Also, if the territory you are attacking has AA guns, you risk losing that transport plane plus the infantry.  If you are going to go out the expense of a transport plane, you ought to be able to at least deliver 2 infantry to the battle to make it worth the while.

    I have a question about the range.  You mentioned paratroops can be dropped up to 2 spaces behind enemy lines.  Lets make an example:  Say the Allies have France with the airbase in Paris.  The enemy line would be Western Germany and Northern Italy.  Now, ALSO say the Axis have no units behind those lines.  So the Allies could send paratroops over to Greater Southern Germany and/or Slovakia/Hungary and capture those territories with Paratroops?


  • 2018 2017 2016 2015 '13 '12 '11

    @knp7765:

    I still think allowing only 1 paratrooper per transport plane is too low.  Basically, a paratrooper is an infantry unit.  Why would anyone go out the expense of using the transport plane to just bring 1 more infantry into the battle?  Also, if the territory you are attacking has AA guns, you risk losing that transport plane plus the infantry.  If you are going to go out the expense of a transport plane, you ought to be able to at least deliver 2 infantry to the battle to make it worth the while.

    I have a question about the range.  You mentioned paratroops can be dropped up to 2 spaces behind enemy lines.  Lets make an example:  Say the Allies have France with the airbase in Paris.  The enemy line would be Western Germany and Northern Italy.  Now, ALSO say the Axis have no units behind those lines.  So the Allies could send paratroops over to Greater Southern Germany and/or Slovakia/Hungary and capture those territories with Paratroops?

    Hi,

    I also think that transport planes should carry up to 2 paratroopers, like sea transports. About the range, if the territories have no units in them, then you take them with paratroopers without a fight. Which mean that you have to plan to leave defending units in almost all your territories now. 😮

    J.  8-)


  • Customizer

    knp7765 and Others,

    @Tall:

    Paratroop Drops(combat) of ONE unit can be made up to two zones behind enemy lines(dependant on aircraft range) and must START from an Airbase but not necesarily end at one.

    As you can see from my previous statement, dependant on aircraft range is a necessary part of this equasion.

    If a Transport aircraft(C-46, C-47) has a range of 4 spaces(or 5 since it’s starting from an airbase) then it must have the capability of landing somewhere in NCM after moving 5 spaces. So with this scenario as an example:

    Yes, EACH Transport starting at an airfield in France(Paris) could Paratroop ONE Paratrooper to Greater Southern Germany and return.

    If there is an A/A gun in G.S.G. it would shoot as normal, but no other A/A guns on the route would be allowed to shoot, just as in a Strategic Bombing Raid.

    If their were enemy Fighters in G.S.G. they would be allowed to “scramble” to intercept. The attacking Transport(s) can be “escorted” by friendly Fighters to counter this.

    As far as going all the way to Slovakia I can’t answer that one because I don’t know whether there is a place for the Transport(s) to land after moving only 5 spaces.

    As in real Life, a Paratroop Drop is best accomplished when aimed at an undefended location and in co-ordination with other forces. Paratroopers, although strong “shock troops”, have no heavy supporting weapons or source of re-supply as they’re usually surrounded. This is the main reason for co-ordinating with other forces.

    The reason to “go to the trouble” of having a Transport plane capable of paradropping ONE Paratrooper is to give you the flexibility of “vertical envelopement”. It also follows that it would be best to use more than one Transport/Paratrooper in your drops. The thing is, all of your Transports/Paratroops don’t have to start at the same airfield! It would add to the “shock” of the attack if you were able to launch an Paratroop attack originating from several different airfields and in co-ordination with other “standard” forces. Think about it. Generally speaking, ParaTroopers didn’t usually attack by themselves, and routinely were used in large numbers, along with other forces.

    IMHO the rules that I.L. has developed with much discussion from others are the best solution to Paratroop Drops and/or Air Transport.

    “Tall Paul”

    What do YA’LL Think?


  • Customizer

    Radar231 and Others,

    @radar231:

    I also think that transport planes should carry up to 2 paratroopers, like sea transports.

    Well, just think about how HUGE an ocean-going Transport is in comparison to a C-47 Transport. They can even transport Tanks. The WW2 Paratroop Transports that we’re discussing here were much smaller in comparison. And having the capacity of carrying TWO Partroopers in every Air Transport is IMHO too powerful and game-changing. If the attacker wants to have an overwhelming force he should have to build and pay for it. The ability to strike at longer range via the air is the capability that the Air Transport/Paratrooper offers.

    “Tall Paul”


  • 2018 2017 2016 2015 '13 '12 '11

    @Tall:

    Radar231 and Others,

    @radar231:

    I also think that transport planes should carry up to 2 paratroopers, like sea transports.

    Well, just think about how HUGE an ocean-going Transport is in comparison to a C-47 Transport. They can even transport Tanks. The WW2 Paratroop Transports that we’re discussing here were much smaller in comparison. And having the capacity of carrying TWO Partroopers in every Air Transport is IMHO too powerful and game-changing. If the attacker wants to have an overwhelming force he should have to build and pay for it. The ability to strike at longer range via the air is the capability that the Air Transport/Paratrooper offers.

    "Tall Paul"Â

    Ok. I agree on one paratrooper per plane when doing a drop. Did we have a price tag for the plane ? It should be cheaper that the sea version though, like +/- 5 ipcs, no attack and no defence and destroyed if by itself in the same zone with an enemy figther ?

    J.  8-)


  • Customizer

    Radar231 and Others,

    The thread on Air Transport/Paratroop drops is currently on page 7 in “House Rules”. The name of the thread is: Re: FMG Combat Units- Rules: AIR TRANSPORT

    I.L.'s discussion begins as “Reply #6”. I think everyone would better understand � the rules that were decided on after reading the opinions expressed from BOTH SIDES on matters concerning this topic.

    –-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In comparing the two types of transports, Basically, an Air Transport can:
    Operate over land or sea
    Land in and unexpected area
    Land BEHIND enemy lines

    These are things that a Sea Transport can’t do. But, a Sea Transport can:

    Sealift TWO units into COMBAT.

    So the point is that Air Transports can DO MORE things that a Sea Transport and so it costs 10 I.P.C.'s and a Sea Transport costs 7 I.P.C.'s.

    If you made the Air Transports cost less than or even the same amount as Sea Transports, IMHO it would seriously unbalance the game and I doubt that anyone would ever buy a Sea Transport again.

    Just think of the large amount of I.P.C.'s spent on Naval Forces to defend your Sea Transports. You could spend SOME of that large amount on Air Transports that can do MORE.

    Rather than going back and forth I hope everyone will read the above mentioned thread to get a better understanding of both sides of the discussions. After reading BOTH sides of the discussions and thinking them over, please let me know what your opinions are. And remember, we’re all here to have FUN! And we should be careful that any changes we make don’t un-balance the game and therefore our "FUN FACTOR.

    "Tall Paul"Â


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Yea, why would you EVER build ships, if you could just go all air for cheaper.

    I mean, you can build bombers, and fighters, cheaper than you can build aircraft carriers, battleships and cruisers.

    AND you get 3x the range!


  • Customizer

    Gar always goes straight to the heart of the discussion.

    And let’s not forget all of the Destroyers that defend all or the other ships, too.

    “Tall Paul”


  • Customizer

    @Tall:

    So the point is that Air Transports can DO MORE things that a Sea Transport and so it costs 10 I.P.C.'s and a Sea Transport costs 7 I.P.C.'s.

    If you made the Air Transports cost less than or even the same amount as Sea Transports, IMHO it would seriously unbalance the game and I doubt that anyone would ever buy a Sea Transport again.

    Sorry, but this is just wrong.  I think it would be more accurate to say air transports have DIFFERENT abilities than sea transports, not necessarily MORE.  An air transport does have greater range than a sea transport but it CAN’T carry artillery, mechs or tanks.  A sea transport can carry those things.  So even if air transports were the same price as sea transports, people would still need to buy sea transports plus other naval units to protect them.


  • Customizer

    Knp7765 and Others,

    Some GOOD points, you’re correct, and I completely agree.

    The “more” that I was obviously referring to is the Air Transport’s ability to
    out-flank the front lines of your enemy with a Paratroop Drop behind their lines which obviously a Sea Transport cannot do. This COULD be War-Winning! And this is what I meant by “more”.

    And what I mentioned was spending SOME of the large Naval expenditures on Air Transports instead.
    @Tall:

    Just think of the large amount of I.P.C.'s spent on Naval Forces to defend your Sea Transports. You could spend SOME of that large amount on Air Transports that can do MORE.

    But my point was to iluminate the differing capabilities of the two types of Transports and show that the price of Air Transports is reasonable and justified at 10 I.P.C.'s.

    KNP7765 I’m always glad to hear your opinions on matters.

    “Tall Paul”


  • Customizer

    Everyone,

    Has anyone gone back to the thread I spoke about in my response #13 to update themselves with all of the different facets of the Air Transport/Paradrop issues?

    I truly feel if you would do so you’d have a much better understanding of both sides of the issue and the outcome of the discussion.

    “Tall Paul”


  • '12

    I have considered air transports at 10 ipc, with the same movement as bombers. � They can carry 1 para inf for a combat drop in the CM phase and then land in the NCM phase like any other aircraft. �

    In the NCM phase (if they did not move in the CM), they can carry 1 inf or para, but must end their movement in the destination space (paratroops would not be dropped in a NCM, but landed instead).

    In either case, the land unit cannot have move first.

    This makes them carry less than transport ships but very useful so their cost is justified. �  They attack and defend on 0 and can be taken as a loss, paras are dropped immediately after AA fire, but the transports stick around until the NCM (and can be taken as a battle loss). � If the transport is hit by the AA gun, the para is lost with it.

    The only thing still under discussion is if an air transport can move first, pick up a unit and continue.

    A Para inf costs 4ipc, and is identical to inf in all respects (except that it can be paradropped).


  • Customizer

    Moralecheck,

    What was decided earlier by IL & others was:

    If you’re Air Transporting in a non-combat turn that you could air transport TWO Infantry types, but they must to START and END their non-combat moves at airbases.

    If you Paratroop Drop in a combat move, the aircraft and ONE Paratrooper BOTH had to start at the SAME AIRBASE but the aircraft did NOT have to land at an airbase.

    Whether ParaDropping in a combat move,…or Air Transporting in a non-combat move, the aircraft AND the Infantry type units must BOTH START at an airbase.

    I hope this helps you. Enjoy “Death from Above” and let me know how it works for you. I’m glad you understand that because of the capablities it offers, the
    Air Transport is worth 10 IPCs.

    “Tall Paul”


  • '12

    Tall Paul,

    Thanks for the reply.  I will admit that while we came up with a few house rules for the new pieces from HBG/FMG we have never used them, so I can’t give first hand results.

    That said, 2 inf on an air transport seems a bit too powerful.  The problem is that they are 3 times faster than sea transports, have the same inf capacity, and only cost 3 IPC more.  Adding to that, they are always shielded by the inf they carried over (in the NCM), so they are much harder to kill.  If they are allowed to carry 2 inf, the USA would be crazy to even consider sea transports, except for the odd occasion.  Keeping their limit to 1 makes them more of a ‘special occasion’ unit and keeps sea transports relevant. Â

    Again, I have not tried them in a game, so I’m only spouting theory.  If you have tried them, I’d be interested in the results.


  • Customizer

    Moralecheck and Others,

    I’m sorry but I don’t understand what you meant by the statement that they would “always be shielded by Infantry they carried over”.

    If you meant that the aircraft would be defended by the Infantry CARGO,…no,…the Infantry do not defend the aircraft,…just like if a Sea Transport were attacked the cargo doesn’t defend, it is only cargo.

    The Air Transporting of TWO Infantry type units is accomplished entirely in the non-combat phase between two airbases that you owned/controlled at the beginning of your turn so no combat should occur.

    The reasoning behind allowing for TWO Infantry to be air transported in non-combat is you HAVE TO START AND END AT AIRBASES. This means you have to invest IPCs in airbases to reap the benefits of this capability. And it’s limited to INFANTRY type units.

    And as for never using Sea Transports, they have the capabilty to transport units that the Air Transport can’t, like TANKS. So if the U.S.A. wants to attack with any Tanks they’ll have to be transported by Sea Transports.

    And the Air Transports range would be FOUR movements, or FIVE when starting from an Airbase. I’m guessing that you thought the range of an Air Transport was the same as a a Bomber. It isn’t. It is the same as a Fighter. FOUR, or FIVE from an airbase.

    I hope this further explains Air Transporting in non-combat. You’d really benefit from reading the thread I meantioned previously in response #13 if you haven’t already.

    “Tall Paul”


  • Customizer

    I may have remembered the aircraft range incorrectly. I remember that there was discussion of a/c range being FOUR for combat Paradrops and SIX for non-combat air transports. I will have to re-read the info. Irregardless, I know that combat Paradrops DID NOT have a range of six. Combat Paratroop Drops having a range of six was obviously seen as a game-changer.

    “Tall Paul”


  • '12

    It does clear things up, thanks.

    By shielding, I meant a plane lands and unloads in the NCM phase and has 2 inf to protect it when defending, plus whatever else was there.  I totally get that in combat drops that the inf count as cargo and go down with the plane if hit by AA.  Thanks for the clarification on the movement.  2 still seems high (it implies air transport was a better way to move inf across the atlantic then shipss), but I will try it.

    Are you guys requiring a special para inf to be used in combat drops, or just any old inf will do?  I undertsand that any inf is fine during NCM as cargo.

    I’m also a bit concerned that these may effect the balance with behind the line drops.  That will put a heavy burden on the russians.  The OOB tech rules from AAG40 do not allow para’s to drop into territories unless you are sending other land units.


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