Operation Sealion? Really?



  • @jim010:

    Even Alpha 2 there was no way of getting Sealion below 60%.

    Well I think that’s pretty important for game balance.
    I don’t think UK should ever be able to completely remove the chance of Sealion.
    But that 60% number is a heck of a lot better than the situation in Alpha 3.  Even with a full-defense UK Germany still has nearly unstoppable odds.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    @jim010:

    Russian navy?  Interesting.

    My first impulse is to laugh, but maybe there’s something to it?  Where do they build it?  Baltic or Arctic?

    To attack the German fleet in SZ 110, it would have to be built north of Novgorod in the Arctic.  The purpose is to make it statistically possible for the Americans to sink the Germans with all the fighter/bombers on their carriers in SZ 102 and their strategic bombers from E. USA (assuming Germany does not take Scotland of course.)



  • @jim010:

    Russian navy?  Interesting.

    My first impulse is to laugh, but maybe there’s something to it?  Where do they build it?  Baltic or Arctic?

    One of the main people proposing this is not buying “all navy” on R1.

    His proposal, from what I gather, is as follows:

    On R1, assuming G1 looks like a possible sealion set up, buy 1DD, 2SS (in the Arctic) and a mix of land units.
    UK1 buy ground defense in London.  Claim Eire.  Move most of Med fleet to z92.
    US1 buy 3 Bombers, remaining money can be 2DDs or a Carrier, but the US should be preping to have a Carrier in z102 on US2.

    If Germany buys the transports for sealion on G2, then
    R2 buys 1 Bomber, the rest land units.  Move Arctic fleet out to Altantic in range of z110.
    UK2 mass surviving Atlantic and Med fleets in z109 supplement with SS purchases, maybe a DD.  Have some land forces is Scotland and Eire and try to have 2-3 fighters in Scotland.  Move bomber to Iceland.
    US2 buy 3 more bombers in East US (total of 7 there now).  Remaining money is 2 DD or a CV for the Pacific.  Move a Carrier (and maybe Pacific BB as well) to z102 with Fighter/Tac.

    After a successful G3 sealion, Russia, US, and UK do a three-way attack on the German fleet in z110.
    Russia can bring 3 SS, 1 DD, 1 Bomber.
    US can bring 7 Bombers, 1 Fighter, 1 Tac.
    UK can bring a mix of fleet, some fighters, a Tac, and a Bomber.  The exact mix depends on results of earlier battles and buys.

    One of my concerns with this plan is it leaves London so light on ground forces that Germany can afford to divert some transports and air cover to z119 to take Eire and Scotland on G3, depriving the US bombers of a landing zone.  Not sure if this a real concern though, since Germany would have to divert at least 3, maybe more, transports to take both territories and a fair amount of air to cover the possible scramble from Scotland.  And any transports sent to z119 will die on one of R3, US3, or UK3.

    The other concern is Germany goes Barbarossa starting in G2 after seeing the R1 buy.  Though in this case it is not like the Russian navy is useless.  It can convoy Norway, forcing DD purchases if Germany wants to clear, and/or provide padding to allied fleets in the Atlantic or Med allowing them to make earlier advances in those areas, and/or serve as a can opener for allied fleets.  Yes, boots on the ground would be more useful for Russia in the face of Barbarossa, but the fleet isn’t useless.  And the US1 purchase can quickly swing to the Pacific if need be after Germany abandons sealion.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Here’s my main issue with a Russian fleet buy:  They have to do it on Round 1, but Germany is not committed to Sea Lion on Round 1.

    (The above is the nutshell, details below for those who don’t read long posts)

    A)  Germany virtually needs to have 5 transports in the middle game so they can land infantry built in Germany on Novgorod.  Buying two transports brings Germany up to 3 transports, which really isn’t much.
    B)  Germany virtually needs an aircraft carrier for the entire game anyway (not to mention a few destroyers and a handful of submarines, just to keep the allies honest) so buying it on Round 1 isn’t really much of a waste.
    C)  If Russia buys 2 submarines and 1 destroyer (which is the minimal amount I’ve seen suggested for Russia and it only gets more expensive from there) they have to do it on Round 1 (else it cannot hit SZ 110 or SZ 109 on round 3) and costs Russia 20-36 IPC which is 7-12 less infantry for Germany to plow through.
    D.  If Russia buys fleet, then Germany can use the 70 IPC they have to spend on round 2 on ground units instead of transports - meaning there’s a whole mess more Germans hitting the Russians a whole lot sooner!

    Effectively, you end up with:
    1)  7-12 less infantry for Russia which is 7-12 less hits before losing tanks/fighters, and 14-24 less defensive punch - not to mention opportunity costs and other factors of not buying more infantry on round 1.
    2)  10 more German infantry, 10 more German Artillery for 20 more hits and 40 more punch attacking the Russians

    Of course, I could be missing something.


  • Customizer

    Sounds like this Russian navy buy would play into a turn 6 Russia Rush nicely.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    @jim010:

    Sounds like this Russian navy buy would play into a turn 6 Russia Rush nicely.

    Yea, that’s where I was going.  If not round 6, maybe round 7.  Thing is, there are 3 VCs in Russia, only one on the British Isles.  I’d rather take Stalingrad, Leningrad and Moscow (perhaps Moscow first, then roll back if need be) than invade England.  If you don’t get India, taking England’s almost useless (in my mind).



  • Yeah if I saw the allies do this I would forget about any kind of sea lion and go straight for Russia on G2.  Even if UK fails to build a single unit to defend London, the USSR would be an even juicier target because they basically miss out on a whole turns worth of ground units.  So in a sense it does “save” London by offering the Germans an easier meal.

    I do think it is possible to sink the German fleet, even without Russia’s help (the key is to have landing spots in Scotland and Eireland that Germany can’t take because getting them both would dilute too much from the attack on London).  This airstrike would be a pyrrhic victory though, because without building much of anything on the Pacific side, Japan will soon have Hawaii and then Sydney with a VC win coming rather quickly.  Its like a strategy where each of the allies are competing to make themselves the weakest in order to save the others.  Passive aggressive I guess.



  • I think a Russian navy could equal disaster for them  Russia=land war not naval war
    I might give it a try just to see what the response is from the group. I have a feeling it could be a quick game.



  • Do the Axis know that the game doesn’t end with UK falling?

    If I’m the Allies, I’m PRAYING that you use this strategy.  13+ transports going to UK is 91 IPC’s that isn’t going to Russia.  The guy who said that you won’t loose that many aircraft is crazy.  If you spend that many IPC’s on non combative units, you are doomed to loose in the end.  If I am Russia and I see this coming, I’m mounting all my forces on the Eastern Front and will be in Berlin before you can take UK and make it back to Germany.  The US will then have a 1 turn advantage as well coming into the war and putting their troops close to Western Europe.

    If you play a full game to actually victory conditions, this dooms the Axis.

    I would love to see this face to face and we play every 3 weeks in central CT.  Give me a shout!

    Docfav


  • Customizer

    Play online, then.

    I’ve only ever lost 1 game where I did Sealion.  The fastest you can be in Berlin as Russia is turn 4.  You will NOT take Berlin turn 4.



  • Docfav7  and jim010
    Are either one of you going to Toronto in April?
    Im in upstate New York and Albany is about 2 hrs away, I think Clyde is from Conneticut. Im always looking for new faces and new games. Keep me posted



  • Sorry.  Not going to Toronto.  Would love to, but not in the cards right now.

    As for playing online, no thank you.  I’m a Network Admin and hate online games.  I used to do it a bit when I was younger.  I prefer to play face to face on any game play.

    BTW, I didn’t say I would take Berlin on 4.  Just saying I would get there before Germany could bring 13 TT’s back.  😉

    Doc


  • Customizer

    But the 13 TTs are back on turn 4?  They can go all the way to sz114 and drop off in Pol for G4.

    I live in Edmonton, Alberta, sorry.



  • They can make it back providing they get rid of the Russian ships that are there and pray the Russians don’t build anymore.

    The Sealion of the scale only works against Allied players who cannot think of alternatives to make life hell for Germany.

    Just my 2 cents…

    Doc


  • Customizer

    Well, all strategies need to be flexible. �

    Likely I would go for a turn 6 Russia Rush to Moscow if I saw Russia buy ships R1 instead of doing Sealion. Â

    I’d take the path of least resistance.  I’m not stuck on Sealion, but it does tend to win the most games for the Axis around here.



  • Totally agreed on Russia.  However, if Germany rolls into UK turn 3, I’m moving my current ships to block a return.  Buying more ships on turn 3 (not a lot).  Just enough to make life a more frustrating.  LOL

    With Russia, everything needs to be reactionary.

    Doc


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Vance:

    Yeah if I saw the allies do this I would forget about any kind of sea lion and go straight for Russia on G2.  Even if UK fails to build a single unit to defend London, the USSR would be an even juicier target because they basically miss out on a whole turns worth of ground units.  So in a sense it does “save” London by offering the Germans an easier meal.

    This goes along the lines of:

    “I can cure cancer.  See, if you drink this gallon of Liquid Draino then you will not die of cancer!  Of course, you’ll die of poisoning, but I saved you from dying of cancer!!!”

    In other words, it does not help if the cure is worse than the symptoms.


    @Vance:

    I do think it is possible to sink the German fleet, even without Russia’s help (the key is to have landing spots in Scotland and Eireland that Germany can’t take because getting them both would dilute too much from the attack on London).  This airstrike would be a pyrrhic victory though, because without building much of anything on the Pacific side, Japan will soon have Hawaii and then Sydney with a VC win coming rather quickly.  Its like a strategy where each of the allies are competing to make themselves the weakest in order to save the others.  Passive aggressive I guess.

    Again, I think there’s a flaw here.  Germany can spend 60 IPC on fleet to stop this attack.  A couple ACs to land fighters on and there is no attack by America - yet if America sets it up, they’ve pulled valuable resources from the Pacific.

    2 Carriers gives you 3 total, + BB + CA and let’s toss in a destroyer as well - for grins and giggles, and you can easily have 6 aircraft, 3 carriers, battleship, cruiser, destroyer (and submarines that dont count against air attacks) for a total of 16 hits you can absorb.  I just don’t see America having the firepower to do this - not without completely abandoning the Pacific and if they are doing that (and it should be pretty self evident by round 2) why isn’t Japan staging an invasion of Alaska/Hawaii with future landings in W. USA?



  • OR once America has set it up, if Germany spends all that cash USA could just call it off and send the carriers out to Panama and the bombers to Western US (unless Japan has gone for India instead of Hawaii/Sydney).  Germany spending money like that would be even more stupid than the Russian navy and the American bombers.  Yet another case of curing the cancer with the Drano.  With all these strategies (Mega sea lion, Soviet navy, USA airstrike, Germany mega carrier fleet), you may win the battle but lose the war.



  • I don’t see much value in the 70 IPC of Trn once you take London and get your offensive units back on mainland Europe.

    Spending resources to address their protection seems less efficient than boots on the ground pushing back the Russian advance.


  • Customizer

    Those TTs from sz112 go to sz127 and can drop off in Arc that is 2 spaces away from Moscow.  That’s 26 units.  I would not call that useless.  Units built in Wge get funnelled to the front 1- 2 turns faster than if they walked.  That makes up for having bought the TTs in the first place.



  • Or a few of them could drop a small force in Morocco that eventually makes its way toward Cairo.


  • Customizer

    I had that done to me once.  Completey screwed up my India defense.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Spendo02:

    I don’t see much value in the 70 IPC of Trn once you take London and get your offensive units back on mainland Europe.Â

    Spending resources to address their protection seems less efficient than boots on the ground pushing back the Russian advance.

    5 Transports and the fleet stay in the Baltic Sea - now you can ferry your infantry/artillery builds directly into Novgorod each round (+13 units a round in Novgorod - there’s not a snowball’s chance in hell Russia is getting it back - ever.)
    5 Transports go down to Gibraltar - land in Morocco and join with large Italian fleet - which will probably exist unless England went no defense for England - and take Brazil, Africa, W. Indies and then slide the rest down around the Cape for Madagascar.

    There’s a lot of things you can use the transports for.  You could use them to set up a train service to Arkhangelsk through the Arctic Ocean and the other half to shuttle troops from Berlin.


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