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Dealing with USA in the Pacific



  • So I’ve played as Japan with my playgroup the last 3 times… here is what I have been able to do, and whats crushed me:

    Game one was my first Japan play, I did a little bit of everything.  Took out Hawaii on J3 before that extra carrier and fighters showed up.  I couldn’t capture Hawaii because I was sending units into China via ground moves.  Soon as the US was into the war after the Hawaii attack, its first move was to purchase 8 or so Subs in the pacific.  I had to retreat my fleet from Hawaii because you can’t hit the subs with my air power without destroyers present.  Took note of that move.  Japan eventually lost because without taking Hawaii, it was 2 turns to move my fleet to a Naval Base to repair my capital ships.  My fleet in the south was without a naval base and got caught out of position to protect Japan.  Once the US fleet is sitting in SZ6, the Convoy Disruption ended Japan’s game.

    Game two I tried a new strategy.  I put a NB on Hainan.  Was able to ferry units onto Kwangsi and hold the Burma road.  Put me in a threatening position for India UK.  Turn 3 I moved my entire fleet from SZ36 to Carolines for a double threat (Anzac or Hawaii).  Turn4 I took out the US fleet off Hawaii, and took Hawaii due to the US flying fighters towards the Philippines to help deal with the India Crush.  Turn5 I moved my fleet SZ10 to convoy disrupt the US, and its purchase was again 8-10 subs.  Full retreat again because I can’t deal with those subs without destroyers.  Game ended early in Europe because Moscow fell on low luck rolls throughout the game, but Japan was again impotent.

    Game three I went for Kill Anzac First.  Anzac saw it coming and blocked Anzac2 with a unit SZ54.  No problem just landed my units in Queensland and the Philippines on J3.  Took Sydeny J4.  Played blocker on J3 by placing Destroyers in SZ’s 25, 31, and 30.  J4 I sent my fleets to take Celebes, Java, Borneo, Sumatra and took all the DEI’s.  Collected 67 IPC or so.  US purchase was again 8-10 subs.  Went after Calcutta J5 with everything I had and lost the battled by 3 Inf.  However, even with a win, I would lose Calcutta soon as the UK went.  I took half of China in the game and started to withdraw because without holding Burma Road China was slowly reclaiming its provinces.  Plan was to hold Shanghai.  Was able to take Kwangtung and retake Shanghai on J5 but probably wasn’t holding it.  Played blocker J5 in SZ16, but just couldn’t muster enough defense to deal with multiple US carriers and subs on J6.  Lost the battle to hold Sydney and US liberated it.  Lost the battle on SZ6 and the US had 7 or so subs to shut down the Japanese economy and it was a matter of time before my economy was entirely scrambled.

    So the question is, how exactly do you deal with a US purchase of 8-10 subs soon as it gets into the war?  It basically forces all Japanese fleets to retreat and at least 2 rounds of multiple Japan purchases of just destroyers so that the a large fleet’s worth of ships/fighters can take the subs out.  It shuts down Japan from an aggressor to a defender in no time flat.



  • From what it sounds, I would purchase more destroyers and even though it is hard, take them as the latter casualties so you can hit the subs still with your aircraft. You could also clear out their fleet off the west coast and place your units there so you could destroy those subs as soon as they spawn, but it would possibly be better to attack the subs since they defend on a 1. Hope this helps
    34



  • by the time the US has a fleet that dares to match japan, india, DEI and china with large part of siberia are already taken; not levelling but closing in on US ipc’s…



  • The complete annihilation of the Japanese fleet is inevitable weather it happens turn 5 or turn 10. It’s the “you’re gonna lose it, so you might as well use it” mind set, only on a much larger scale than just 1 unit. I have come to the conclusion that Japan should first take Calcutta, than the Phillipenes and Dutch Islands while defending the coastal territories from China. During all this I build a air base, naval base, and minor IC in FIC, and If I have any warships left after that, I take them to their slaughter in sea zone #6 where they will benifet somewhat with the support of 6 kamakaze units. once the smoke clears and my Capital and coastline is safe from enemy ships, I build sea units in FIC to take on ANZAC which is a threat in the late rounds. My point is, you should stop trying to save our initial Japanese startup fleet by avoiding fights and becoming vulnerable in other areas, just try your best to take down as much American hardware as you can, so there’s an empty ocean when its all over.


  • '10

    @Young:

    The complete annihilation of the Japanese fleet is inevitable weather it happens turn 5 or turn 10.

    I totally disagree with this.
    It just never happens in games where i’m playing Japan…
    Even when America has established total domination of Pacific, there’s just no reason to “give” this fleet.



  • I meant that I sacrifice them in battle instead of playing cat and mouse which might put me out of position, and I didn’t mean to suggest that I reliquish the Pacific ocean, as I always build more sea units latter. my point was that you can’t avoid a scrap with the states, at least in our games because the US are very agressive against Japan and there is always a huge battle of attrition between the fleets. I stress that gaining Calcutta before this happens is critical.



  • I don’t see how the US can kill the Jap fleet so easily. I’ve talked about this before grasshopper. The advantage is always on the defense since you can stay at a naval base/air base in phillipines and have 3 extra fighters scramble as well as after the battle is through just repair your damaged ships. There is no way vs me EVER japan will loose their fleet on T5-10. If it gets to the point America can take phillipines fleet out I will just retreat my fleet sea zone outside of Kwangtung. This push out of the phillpines sea zone for Japan takes a lot longer than you might think grasshopper. After T1 my Japan builds 12 dollars worth of ground units, if US is going 100% pacific, and then the rest towards sea units. Since US is 3 turns from phillipines and Japan just 1, while they may have naval dominance, they are still 2 turns worth of buys later than japan.



  • Spendo02, the creator of this topic seems to be having problems with American production in the Pacific, so I’m not alone when I say that Japan’s fleet will eventually have a tough time with Naval attrition.


  • Customizer

    Grasshopper is right.  If the US goes heavy in the Pacific, Japan is eventually going to lose most if not all of it’s navy.  If the Japanese navy just retreats to the Philippines or SZ 6, then Japan will lose the DEI and possibly even leave Calcutta open to liberation.  Yes, Japan can buy new warships, but they can’t match USA’s builds because Japan will also need land forces to deal with China and keep Calcutta. 
    Now, if Japan does manage to get Calcutta and the DEI and can somehow manage to keep them, then it will be a more even match between the Japanese and US navies.  Plus, if Germany does something to attract USA’s attention, it’s even possible that Japan could gain the upper hand.



  • Why in the world would Japan ever go for naval attrition? this is a stupid noob mistake. If you are saying your 10 units are attacking my 13 Jap units and I am at a naval base where at the end of the battle, where I am going to win 95% of the time, I can just repair my damaged ships, then I will take this all day everyday! You loose your 20 dollar and 16 dollar battleship and aircraft carrier, while I loose my cheap pieces I can readily replace… Going at this rate it would take you 20 turns to take the Japs out. Try stationing in phillipines next game KNP. Japan can hit every single island from here. Japan buys 3 transports first turn and has 6 by the time US goes to war. US starts with 3. They need to buy 3 to match Japan.



  • Please try to refrain from calling anyone’s ideas stupid, no matter how much you disagree with them.


  • 2017

    If the US builds excess subs, try to get in position for an all-air attack to sink their surface ships and transports.

    If your opponent plays too conservatively for that to work, make sure you have enough destroyers.

    When you can no longer go toe to toe against the US fleet, there’s no shame in retreating.  If your economy is still strong enough, build whatever land units you need to prevent the US from sacking Tokyo and use your fleet to disrupt the Middle East or Africa.  If you’ve lost hope of Pacific victory, then that’s often a better use than sitting on SZ6 waiting to be sunk.

    How long Japan can hold out varies widely depending on when it attacks the Allies and what % of money each side spends on fleet.  Massing on the Philippines is great because it takes one turn for a Japanese ship to arrive and three turns for a US ship.



  • Its not so much the economy of the US, because generally when I play Japan I have at least a round or two of 50+ IPC to spend and my fleet is superior to the US fleet provided I keep the fleet combined or able to pounce.  Problem occurs in dealing with 8-10 subs hitting Hawaii and then heading straight for Japan.

    It basically forces my fleets to all move to SZ6 to prevent 16-20 die rolls just from subs for 3 to take out Japan’s IPC value and placement of more ships as well.

    You just can’t place enough ships in a single round to take out all the subs there, especially with a US fleet sitting on top of it.

    I am supposing the only real choice is to hit the stack of US subs when they are on the defensive side and rolling at 1’s instead of 2’s.  That means when they land in Hawaii as that is the gateway to the Pacific for the US.

    As an aside, I do have a question regarding SBR and Air Bases:  We had a discussion about if you can SBR the AB to prevent a scramble from that AB in the same turn you SBR in.  We came to the conclusion that you declare all your combat moves, declare scramble then conduct SBR which negates that move.



  • @wheatbeer:

    If the US builds excess subs, try to get in position for an all-air attack to sink their surface ships and transports.

    If your opponent plays too conservatively for that to work, make sure you have enough destroyers.

    When you can no longer go toe to toe against the US fleet, there’s no shame in retreating.  If your economy is still strong enough, build whatever land units you need to prevent the US from sacking Tokyo and use your fleet to disrupt the Middle East or Africa.  If you’ve lost hope of Pacific victory, then that’s often a better use than sitting on SZ6 waiting to be sunk.

    How long Japan can hold out varies widely depending on when it attacks the Allies and what % of money each side spends on fleet.  Massing on the Philippines is great because it takes one turn for a Japanese ship to arrive and three turns for a US ship.

    I agree with you, and I realize now that I may have misrepresented my position about my Japan naval strategies, I would never suicide my ships even if that’s how it sounded (I must have had too much turkey). My play in a nut shell is: I would fight to win and I would definitely fight to draw, but I would never fight to lose.



  • Spendo: next time your opponet masses a bunch of subs in sea zone 6, you should be able to see this coming, have your fleet waiting in the phillipines. Once he places 10 subs there just attack them with your entire fleet. You shouldn’t loose a single piece since you can soak hits on BB’s and AC’s since you are at a naval base next turn just repair up and you are ready to go again and US just lost 60 dollars worth of IPC’s for your loss of 0.

    Grasshopper: I am sorry I as well must have had too much to drink. I just read your statement and got a little flustered since I am having a hell of a time as well against Japan. I wouldn’t even want to imagine what the pacific stand alone might look like…



  • No worries, I as well have been known to get a little carried away with my opinions😊 you should get an Avatar ROCmonster, it’s anoying constantly scrolling in on my I-phone just to see who’s post it is, people who post a lot should have an image IMO, as its helpful for members using small screens.



  • how do u get that?



  • So basically the solution is to back off after Hawaii to SZ6 or SZ33 and let the subs move forward and then counterattack?



  • Yes, since convoy damage isn’t applied till the end of your turn when you collect income. Let him move to sea zone 6 and just crush it. Sometimes, though, I would advice sending some sea units up to sea zone 6 to protect whatever was built if you need to keep the supply of ships flowing south to stave of an american advance. One good way of keeping the phillipines save, I’ve noticed, is just leaving a couple ground units and a bunch of planes. None of the US’s planes can reach the phillipines from queensland and safely land. So 10 units should suffice if US has say just 3 transports. If they have 5 leave 14 units. They should dare assault with you having 4 ground and 10 planes that, with a decent chance, can 1 hit KO all the ground units and then Japan can then just kill offf every last American transport in the pacific for the loss of 4 ground a maybe a couple planes. If America builds a bunch of transports, then I see Japan holding Naval dominance, in the phillipines area, for a long time. That, and the atlantic will most surely be woefully neglected. In which case it might be best to put Japans resources to hurting russia and helping out the axis on the atlantic side of the board.


  • Customizer

    Hey ROCmonster,
    I am starting to see the value in staging the bulk of the Japanese fleet by the Philippines.  If the US fleet attacks yours “en masse”, then you have the advantage as the defender, especially if you can get planes to the airbase there.  Plus you can repair your ships at the naval base.  Even if the US wins, it won’t likely have much left and your new purchases by Japan can come down there right away and finish them off, whereas the US reinforcements will be a couple of turns away.
    If they don’t attack you there, and go to reclaim the DEI, then you can tear them up piecemeal.  You may lose the DEI NO for a round or so, but you can probably get that back next round.
    Yes, I’m starting to see the value of this strategy.  I still think grabbing Calcutta ASAP is the real key to Japanese success in the Pacific.



  • ROCmonster, this weekend I will study your Phillipenes strategy against my Queensland strategy and I will post my findings next week.



  • I looked at it, and I really like staging the Japanese fleet at the Philippines.  Lots of advantages and very little lost by Japan to control the DEI’s while cutting out the UK-India IPC income while cornering Anzac and still being in range for any US aggression in the pacific.



  • One big tip staging in the phillipines. Never let US have the advantage is they are going to attack you and you see that they will likely win, retreat. Also use all 6 of your kamikazee’s the first big battle.



  • @theROCmonster:

    One big tip staging in the phillipines. Never let US have the advantage is they are going to attack you and you see that they will likely win, retreat. Also use all 6 of your kamikazee’s the first big battle.

    Would you fight if it looked like both fleets would sink, or would you run in a draw situation?



  • I’d not lose the fleet.  No fleet = no influence in the Pacific for Japan.  It also compromises protecting the DEI and if Japan loses the DEI and UK-India is still collecting income, Japan is losing the Pacific.

    I’d be willing to fight the good fight if Calcutta was taken and held by Japan.  Setting the US fleet back multiple rounds while I push my prerogative on the mainland means I can take the mainland before the US can mass a fleet to retake the DEI or threaten Japan.


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