Italian strategy?



  • I have been thinking about a possible move for the Italians, but I am not sure about the consequences. My idea is that on I1, Italy lands 2 infantry and 2 artillery in Syria. Next turn these untis move into Iraq. From there, the Italians could move towards India, Cairo, or Russia, all by the 3rd turn. If they put a factory there, all the more damage it can cause. What do you guys think about this?



  • Unless I am mistaken, you cannot place IC’s except on territories you start with?

    I1 I buy a Sub, save 4 IPC
    I1 I take S.France, Bulgaria, Tunisia, Kenya
    Collect 16 IPC (21 if UK withdraws past the Suez Canal and doesn’t move its cruiser to SZ93 to defend with the French fleet)

    I2 I buy a Carrier, save 4 IPC
    I2 I take Algeria, Greece, Belgian Congo
    I2 I lose Libya, Ethiopia
    Collect 18 IPC (Possibly have Med NO at this point, so could be 23)

    I3 I buy 2 TacB’s
    I3 I take Yugo, French Eq. Africa, Morocco
    I3 I lose Belgian Congo, Kenya, Tunisia
    Collect 19 IPC (Same story, Med NO is subjective, so I don’t count on it)

    I4 I buy 3 Tanks
    I3 I turn my units around in Morocco and land whatever surviving units from Yugo in Algeria to take it back from the UK (assuming they took it prior to my turn).  I can bring 2 Ftrs, 2 TacB from the Air, possibly the StratB if it survived chasing the fleets out of the Med.  Assuming none of the tanks were lost on Europe (3 to start, I can load 2 of them with 1 Inf each on my 2 Trn and dump them there as well).  Theres at least a tank in N.Africa that may have survived, so I can bring up to 3 tanks into Algeria, probably 3-4 total Inf.  That should be enough to crush whatever units the UK pushed from Egypt/Alexandria across N.Africa.  It also stages 3 tanks to blitz across to Libya on I5 and meet up with 2 more tanks being dropped off from my I4 purchase.

    Basically I play cat and mouse in Africa until I solidify my territories in Europe and THEN turn on Africa.  The UK only really counters this by sending units into Morocco from the UK (which I expect it is prepping for sealion and not doing so) or by committing more sea units to stopping Italy from obtaining the NO in the Med.  UK can also send units from India to Africa (to include fighters), but in doing so exposes itself to Japan taking India on Turn3.



  • @Spendo02:

    Unless I am mistaken, you cannot place IC’s except on territories you start with?

    That is only for Major ICs, minor can go on any non island with an IPC value of 2 or more



  • and what version of the game are you playing?



  • For Italy I recommend buying a sub or a fighter on the first turn. After this Buy almost soley infantry. This basically means Italy gives up on ever really taking Egypt, unless Germany goes sealion, but Shores up Italy and gives Italy the ability to defend Germany as well. This means that Germany can for 10+ rounds send 100% of her income toward Russia.



  • Keys for Italy include:

    Take Yugo on I1 (German pop it but withdraw after taking out 2-3 units) - this allows Italy to take it on I1 and purchase a carrier on I2
    Take Bulgaria on I1 - same as above
    Take S.France on I1 - same as above
    Axis remove all UK Trn on the first round
    Take Greece on I2
    Disable the seaport in Gibraltar on I3/I4 to hinder US advances in the Atlantic.  Its actually better to hit it I3 after a successful German Sealion.  The UK loses all its resources to repair it, and the seaport cannot be used by the US until it liberates London.

    The ability to ignore the NO for controlling N.Africa (its a trap).  N.Africa control is a late game NO.  Taking S.Africa’s IC is really the only sustainable goal Italy should consider with its units in Ethiopia and Somaliland in regards to Africa.  Anything else is gravy until after the US enters the war.

    Taking Greece, Yugo, S.France, Bulgaria is the equivalent of taking N.Africa to get it’s NO and you don’t have to buy a single Trn to do it.  This allows you to buy a Ftr on I1, a Carrier on I2 and taking out the port in Gibraltar on I3, which crimps the US’s style to retake London after a successful Sealion.

    I prefer G1 using its subs to take out the UK cruiser in SZ91 to take some heat off the Med from the UK.  A Battleship, Cruiser from SZ110 + the Cruiser in SZ91 is a bit overwhelming when combined with the Destroyer moving up SZ71, combining with the fleet that starts in SZ98.

    You can’t do anything about the UK ships coming into the Med from SZ110, thats what the carrier and fighters are for.  It won’t reach the protection of the fleet hiding behind the Suez Canal, so you should be able to pop it with enough to sink it neatly with losing maybe a single ship.

    I can’t say this enough:  If the UK leaves its Trn exposed in the Med - crush it at all costs.



  • Kill the UK fleet in sea zone 110. This fleet is a must to be destroyed! This fleet getting into the med really screws things up for the axis. Italy can buy a carrier R2 all they want, but with UK’s fleet in the med, unless Germany goes sea lion, Italy is doomed.



  • @theROCmonster:

    Kill the UK fleet in sea zone 110. This fleet is a must to be destroyed! This fleet getting into the med really screws things up for the axis. Italy can buy a carrier R2 all they want, but with UK’s fleet in the med, unless Germany goes sea lion, Italy is doomed.

    What about the destroyers in 109 and 106? If Germany passes on those attacks G1, there will be no subs to conduct convoy raids. Germany can always help Italy by attacking UK ships with air units after sealion, but G1 is the only chance to secure U-boat survival.



  • If you ask me, that’s not worth Italy being weakened significantly by the survival of the 110 fleet.
    A dedicated UK/US effort to remove those subs will prevent them from doing much more than ~2-3 rounds of raiding anyway.



  • @Young:

    @theROCmonster:

    Kill the UK fleet in sea zone 110. This fleet is a must to be destroyed! This fleet getting into the med really screws things up for the axis. Italy can buy a carrier R2 all they want, but with UK’s fleet in the med, unless Germany goes sea lion, Italy is doomed.

    What about the destroyers in 109 and 106? If Germany passes on those attacks G1, there will be no subs to conduct convoy raids. Germany can always help Italy by attacking UK ships with air units after sealion, but G1 is the only chance to secure U-boat survival.

    I’ll admit I haven’t played Alpha 3 yet (I’m only familiar with the rules), so I’m not up on optimal moves. How do you attack 109??

    Germany starts with 5 subs (103, 108, 117, 118, 124).
    S117 goes to 106 (per you hitting 106)
    S118 goes to 111 (typ to meet odds, isn’t it?)
    S124 goes to 111 (typ to meet odds, isn’t it?)
    That leaves S103 and S108.

    So do you send 2 subs (103EDIT TYPO, 108) at the destroyer for a 2/3 chance of sinking the destroyer and long odds to survive the scramble and not lose both subs? The UK is unlikely to scramble to assist any other battle (111) unless Germany fails to send enough to give them better than average odds. That means Germany could really afford to send only 103EDIT TYPO and 108 (as one would be utter suicide), especially as their subs are stretched thin attacking 106 as well on top of the typical hits on 111? This also means 110 must be ignored (not atypical as it’s very risky to hit 110 AND 111, and 111 is safer) and it also means 91 is ignored, for the 50/50 hit on the cruiser, unless you actually propose a single sub on 109? That’s a 33% chance for a hit and nearly a 100% chance to not survive for another try as britain can freely scramble 4 fighters to bomb the living heck out of the german sub
    You feel it’s worth sacrificing two subs @ 109 and often enough, another at 106 for a longish chance @ 2 destroyers?



  • @Alsch91:

    If you ask me, that’s not worth Italy being weakened significantly by the survival of the 110 fleet.
    A dedicated UK/US effort to remove those subs will prevent them from doing much more than ~2-3 rounds of raiding anyway.

    A UK\US effort? if the convoy raids prevent even a few infantry from being built on London before sealion, than they have done their job, and then the UK won’t have a war effort at all. If sealion is not in the Axis strategy, than I agree to hit 110 and not 109.



  • kcdzim, the additions to Germany’s equipment - particularly the extra bomber - allow it to hit 109 relatively easily.
    You can send either 1-2 subs, it doesn’t terribly matter.

    On top of them, however, you send
    1 Fig from Holland,
    1 Fig, 2 Tac from West Germany, and
    1 Strategic Bomber from Germany.
    This is enough to discourage a smart UK from scrambling, assuming Germany didn’t do anything else weird.

    @Young:

    A UK\US effort? if the convoy raids prevent even a few infantry from being built on London before sealion, than they have done their job, and then the UK won’t have a war effort at all. If sealion is not in the Axis strategy, than I agree to hit 110 and not 109.

    Aha!  Sorry, I didn’t realize you were talking about Sealion.  I thought you were discussing a more long-term strategy to slow down Britain while doing Barbarossa.

    In my opinion, if Germany plans on Sealion, hitting 110 is a necessity.  Otherwise that fleet swings back up to 110 on UK2, along with the Med fleet and whatever other assorted ships UK can pull.  That could pretty easily draw enough air power away from London to make Sealion very painful, if not impossible.

    And if you try to swing around and take London from 109, you’ll lose your fleet on UK3, which negates any benefit of a successful Sealion.



  • The crazy thing about 109 is, you need to kill the transport, because scramble or no scramble, a lot of those German planes must land in Holland.



  • Pretty sure this was a thread about Kill’s I1 move.

    Lately, I haven’t seen the Italian fleet have two transports survive. However, if you did have two, my question is - what did the UK do with the rest of its fleet? If they pulled back into the Indian Ocean, an IC in Iraq or C Persia would become a challenge to hold. S Africa can purchase a transport and teo land units and hit those zones every turn. That becomes worse if the Brit Med fleet chose to go Indian Ocean.

    Otherwise, I love the idea in concept. An Italian IC in Iraq in particular would be a hard pill for the Allies to swallow, if reinforced properly.



  • @Young:

    @Alsch91:

    If you ask me, that’s not worth Italy being weakened significantly by the survival of the 110 fleet.
    A dedicated UK/US effort to remove those subs will prevent them from doing much more than ~2-3 rounds of raiding anyway.

    A UK\US effort? if the convoy raids prevent even a few infantry from being built on London before sealion, than they have done their job, and then the UK won’t have a war effort at all. If sealion is not in the Axis strategy, than I agree to hit 110 and not 109.

    kill al the fleets…
    and do sealion ^^



  • @Young:

    The crazy thing about 109 is, you need to kill the transport, because scramble or no scramble, a lot of those German planes must land in Holland.

    My German partner found that out the hard way when UK didn’t scramble, and then flew multiple fighters, a bomber and its remaining ships after the German Carrier with 2 fighters on it (Placed in SZ112).  Boom G1 move a waste and Sealion went kaput.  Still landed all his troops on Scotland and attack UK anyways, but lost (60-40 chance UK would win).

    Italy got pwned with bad early rolls and lost its fighters and wasn’t able to remove the UK Trn that stayed in the Med.  Greece was taken the next turn by the UK and Italy was rendered impotent.



  • There is a whole lot less margin for error for the Axis compared to the Allies. Axis plans need to be followed to a T, and if an opportunity arises, they must be able to adjust with the same type of persision.



  • @Stalingradski:

    Pretty sure this was a thread about Kill’s I1 move.

    Lately, I haven’t seen the Italian fleet have two transports survive. However, if you did have two, my question is - what did the UK do with the rest of its fleet? If they pulled back into the Indian Ocean, an IC in Iraq or C Persia would become a challenge to hold. S Africa can purchase a transport and teo land units and hit those zones every turn. That becomes worse if the Brit Med fleet chose to go Indian Ocean.

    Otherwise, I love the idea in concept. An Italian IC in Iraq in particular would be a hard pill for the Allies to swallow, if reinforced properly.

    Thanks, Stalin, for being the only one to actually reply to the post. But if it benefits more than just me, let the tandems fly. The UK decides to attack the troops in Ethiopia with its UK fleet, as well as wipe out the destroyer and transport next to Malta. With the Italian fleet fairly intact, after eliminating the French navy, it could conduct operations near the middle East. This is when I pop my Italian Expeditionary Corps. into Syria.

    I agree with you in that an IC is hard to hold, so perhaps the best option would simply be to secure the 3 oil territories for the NO then regroup in Syria. This allows the Italians to pose a significant threat to Egypt, and perhaps secure trans-jordan to block access to the Med.



  • Interesting idea and I have seen the Italians land in Syria and make a very big nuisance of themselves in the region. I am just wondering what turn you plan on dropping off your expeditionary force? It seems like you intend for a turn 3 (best case scenario) sneak into Syria an moving from there. If so then I woulnt worry too much about the South African IC as a German sealion would make it useless. While the Med. is war zone unto itself never lose sight of the greater Axis victory plan. Whatever Italy does it should be a facet of the over all Axis strategic aim.


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