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What to do as allies when Germany goes Sealion



  • I have had a hard time doing much of anything when germany does sea lion. I know I have heard some of you say that a sea lion on G3 is much better than G4, but I’ve found that G4 means you loose A LOT less materials as germany as well as letting UK make a little more money that you capture.

    What to do when Germany does a sea lion on G3 or G4? I’d like to get oppinions on what you think you would do in both cases.

    My oppinion is that as the allies I would much rather germany take UK out on G3 than G4 since they would loose a bunch of planes and tanks in the attack.

    As Russia once germany puts 10 transports down on T2 do you put all your men in eastern poland and get ready to take a bunch of germany territory if Germany goes for a G3 attack on UK?



  • @theROCmonster:

    What to do when Germany does a sea lion on G3 or G4?

    Hide under the table and cry?  😄

    The good thing for the allies is that if Germany does go for a sealion, you’ll likely se it comming. An attack like that is hard to mask and Germany may as well telegraph its attack over the P.A. system before the game begins. I know that Germany can put down 10 transports as a feint but we’ll assume for this that Germany is going for sealion. The question is how much of Germany’s airforce is going to be tied up with the invasion of the UK and how important is that to the Soviets. Can Germany manage to position its existing forces to keep Soviet forces in check with out the luftwaffe. The Soviets armies are slow moving and they may not have the time to get into position to maxamize the oppertunity for invasion of eastern europe. So the allies (and the UK’s espically) salvation wont come from the east alone, the US will also need to focus a sizeable chunk of their starting forces to do the actual liberation of London.


  • Customizer

    Is is really that vital for USA to liberate London?  I remember one game where Germany took London and also managed to fortify it quite well.  Instead of using up resources going after London, USA went after Rome instead, captured it and started building a strong force to fight it’s way up to Germany.  USA ended up liberating Paris and between them and the Soviets they brought Germany down.  I don’t remember which one actually captured Berlin, but I do remember that Germany was gradually squeezed out of existence.  London was actually never liberated as Berlin was the final Axis capital.



  • @knp7765:

    Is is really that vital for USA to liberate London?

    Thats a valid point knp, but I wonder what other ramifications leaving the UK under German occupation will have for the allies. Will the loss of London cause Calcutta to have to pick up the slack in N. Africa lest Italy plow through and open a second front on both India and the Soviets? If India has to send forces west will this give Japan a greater advantage then it already has against it? Can the US intervine against Italy in time before this happens and will they have resources enough lto check Japans advance in the pacific?
    Its not a bad idea, I just wonder if the resources the US would spend on re-taking London wouldnt pay greater dividends by brining a 30+ IPC economy in against Germany again. Perhapse this could then allow the US to go “whole-hog” against the Japanese(making up the slack they allowed by focusing on the Germans in London).



  • The problem I see with liberating london is how many troops will it take? Say germany has no men on london, but still has 11 transports and 10 planes left to hit london on a counter attack if US takes it. That is 32 units and 2 bombards…. US will have to manage to put down 30+ units to take and hold UK for a round so Germany just doesn’t retake it. This seems extremely difficult.



  • I understand the whole “island-hopping” idea and leaving the Germans sitting, stranded, in London but wouldnt the US, and the allies as a whole, be better off with a 30IPC economy ally in the game? As I said before, the allies are going to see the Germans going for London and should be able to prepare a counter-attack. The Soviets can build up on their borders and attack into eastern Europe after london falls while the US should be able to build up to liberate London after it falls, all of this being done before turn 3 or 4.

    I would think that the Germans would be paying greater attention, and spending greater resources, on the Soviets on their door steps then the US across the atlantic as the Soviets pose the greater threat. The idea of a heavily defended London, or the Germans being able to counter-attack and retake London seems unlikely as it would stretch the Germans beyond their means.



  • I’d counter SeaLion like this:

    Bring a big portion of the Pacific fleet in the atlantic, ready to station it in sz91 after London falls.

    Keep few ships in the Pacific and buy there at least 2 transports.
    Keep reinforcing Hawaii and/or Australia with American infantry while your fleet is occupied in the Atlantic.

    Get control of the Medi with US, Convoy Italy and then focus back on the Pacific. Now with the American support Russia can happily own the Balkans and occupy Sicily/Sardinia thanks to the american transports.



  • Not taking back London after a successful sealion is out of the question in my opinion. If the American forces are routed in Rome, than they are one and done.

    1. Defend your Island, whatever the cost may be. I have tried abandoning London by spending early income on capital ships and transports in Canada, and I have learned that it dosen’t make liberation much easier. In my experience, it’s best to make Germany pay for England with large losses, even if you know you will lose your capital.

    2. Don’t attack with Russia, build a strong line of Defence on your own Russian front. As Germany, I want Russia to come to me, because I just lost tons of units but I now have tons of money. Therefore, if Russia attacks German territories, the war of attrition will be on Germany’s door step where their new money is most effective. Make Germany buy units and come to Russia, the thinning out will help the western allies. If Russia wants to attack and make Germany weaker after sealion, I would limit it to Finland and Norway.

    3. Move everything the Americans have to the Atlantic, I call this operation Albatross. When the US armada leaves the New York port, there will be nothing the US can do after that, and they should spend the remaining American income in the Pacific after that point. I had a blue print for that but I miss placed it, I may draw up a new one later. That massive force must liberate London to allow the UK to earn an income, and to take IPCs away from Germany.

    4. Depending on how the board looks, I would fight in the areas you are losing, instead of building strength where you are already strong. Once you have london back, it won’t be long until you are even with the axis money, it will just take longer to surpass them economically. One thing is for sure, the Russians won’t loss Moscow after sealion (if played wisely) and with London liberated and a huge American fleet in the Chanel to support a weak England, the Axis won’t win on the Europe board. The only thing remaining, is to protect Sydney and Hawaii.


  • Customizer

    @Clyde85:

    I would think that the Germans would be paying greater attention, and spending greater resources, on the Soviets on their door steps then the US across the atlantic as the Soviets pose the greater threat. The idea of a heavily defended London, or the Germans being able to counter-attack and retake London seems unlikely as it would stretch the Germans beyond their means.

    Yes, I think you are right here.  If I remember right, in that game I mentioned where London was not liberated, part of the reason Germany was beaten was because of all they spent on London, both capturing it and holding it.  All those troops and tanks sitting there were that many NOT holding back the Russians.  Plus, even though US didn’t liberate London, they did manage to trash the German navy and pretty much dominate the Atlantic.  So with no transports available, all those German guys were pretty much stuck on England and Germany really could have used them against Russia.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Are we talkin about Alpha 3?

    In Alpha 3 Sea Lion is almost a given as you have 97% success rates with, at most, a loss of 2 aircraft to the AA Guns.  From there you have all those nice transports with which to use to threaten Russia’s northern flank which should give them pause about sending a massive contingent into the Balkans (down by Greece and Romania) despite the obvious financial benefits.

    What to do about it really depends on what Japan’s doing.  If they’re trying to race across the Russian tundra, then go all into the Atlantic and try to free England.  If they are trying for a VC win themselves, then you have to stop them and cannot dedicate much to helping Russia - which is why you see Russia falling most of the time.

    What I’ve been doing is moving Australian, Indian and British aircraft to Russia when this happens, trying to give them enough time to defend while I stop Japan from “winning”.



  • No one has explained how you can liberate London if Germany has 11 transports and 10 planes and 2 bombards in range of London. The moment US went to gibralter with a bunch of men I would let them take london back. Let London make their money and then just retake it again. What is the counter to Germany just doing this?



  • @theROCmonster:

    No one has explained how you can liberate London if Germany has 11 transports and 10 planes and 2 bombards in range of London. The moment US went to gibralter with a bunch of men I would let them take london back. Let London make their money and then just retake it again. What is the counter to Germany just doing this?

    In my senerio, the American fleet is to large to allow Germany to retake London.



  • Granted you are correct grasshopper, but doesn’t Japan easily win in this scenario? I dont know how Japan doesn’t take Hawaii on Turn 4 or so and India around the same time…



  • @theROCmonster:

    Granted you are correct grasshopper, but doesn’t Japan easily win in this scenario? I dont know how Japan doesn’t take Hawaii on Turn 4 or so and India around the same time…

    That is assuming that Japan isnt trying to invade Siberia to help off set the German attention on their (germanys) western front. If Japan is going south then the US might be unable to send a fleet the size Grasshopper is talking, but thats only if Japan is going south.
    Even still, if the US was to spend the first few turns (while they are still at peace with the world) preparing for liberating, moving all their forces to the eastern sea board and spending IPC there(about 52 I think) as well, then the Us should have a fleet capable of liberating London and keeping the Germans out. Then I’d assume the US would have to spend the next several turns (begining with turn 4) concentrating on the pacific with the bulk if not all of their resources going to check the Japanese.



  • The problem with that, Clyde, is that Japan has already won. I can see a scenario where Japan takes and is able to hold Hawaii on T4 and then take India out on T5 or so. If US is putting all her might in the atlantic Japan should win in every case…


  • 2017

    I agree that stopping Pacific Axis victory without investing anything until later US turns (US3 or US4?) will be very difficult (I am not certain about impossible since Japan would have to split it’s fleet to hold Hawaii and take Calcutta).

    That leaves the original question of how to respond to Sea Lion as the Allies (the US in particular).


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    @wheatbeer:

    I agree that stopping Pacific Axis victory without investing anything until later US turns (US3 or US4?) will be very difficult (I am not certain about impossible since Japan would have to split it’s fleet to hold Hawaii and take Calcutta).

    That leaves the original question of how to respond to Sea Lion as the Allies (the US in particular).

    Take Calcutta round 3, don’t split the fleet.



  • @Clyde85:

    @theROCmonster:

    Granted you are correct grasshopper, but doesn’t Japan easily win in this scenario? I dont know how Japan doesn’t take Hawaii on Turn 4 or so and India around the same time…

    That is assuming that Japan isnt trying to invade Siberia to help off set the German attention on their (germanys) western front. If Japan is going south then the US might be unable to send a fleet the size Grasshopper is talking, but thats only if Japan is going south.
    Even still, if the US was to spend the first few turns (while they are still at peace with the world) preparing for liberating, moving all their forces to the eastern sea board and spending IPC there(about 52 I think) as well, then the Us should have a fleet capable of liberating London and keeping the Germans out. Then I’d assume the US would have to spend the next several turns (begining with turn 4) concentrating on the pacific with the bulk if not all of their resources going to check the Japanese.

    This is absolutly correct, once the Us forces leave the harbour in New York, that force better be large enough to take back London, and maintain a shield strong enough to allow the UK to recover their war effort, because their won’t be enough game time to go back to New York for reenforcements. That said, every penny from the moment the US fleet leaves for England, must be spent in the Pacific. It’s possible to recuperate against Japan who has many difficult VCs to gather. What’s not acceptable, is going for a half ass liberation for London, because you might be worried about Japan. The immediate threat is the increase of Germany’s income, and the disappearance of the UKs income. Unless you reclaim England and hold it for good, it won’t matter what happens in the Pacific.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Another thing to consider - the smarter Axis player is not going to go around gobbling up all the land England has if they take London.  They’ll turn right around and focus on Russia virtually ignoring Africa and thus negating any income boosts that the Americans might get there.  Strategically Bombing the Naval Base in Gibraltar is a favorite of mine, it keeps the Allies out of range but keeps the Germans in range.  Since England’s in German hands, no one can repair the base!

    My opinion on the smarter tactic anyway.



  • @Cmdr:

    Take Calcutta round 3, don’t split the fleet.

    Are you attacking on J2?  Because if you are not either the UK or ANZ should be able to get a warship into SZ37 on turn 2, which will block any transports in SZ36 from participating in the J3 attack on Calcutta.  Or are you taking Calcutta on J3 with only three transports?



  • @JamesG:

    @Cmdr:

    Take Calcutta round 3, don’t split the fleet.

    Are you attacking on J2?  Because if you are not either the UK or ANZ should be able to get a warship into SZ37 on turn 2, which will block any transports in SZ36 from participating in the J3 attack on Calcutta.  Or are you taking Calcutta on J3 with only three transports?

    I like to take FIC during J2, and than move most of my war ships from 35 into a sea zone adjacent to India. That way, I can mop up all blockers during J3, to clear the way for a landing in J4.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    @JamesG:

    @Cmdr:

    Take Calcutta round 3, don’t split the fleet.

    Are you attacking on J2?  Because if you are not either the UK or ANZ should be able to get a warship into SZ37 on turn 2, which will block any transports in SZ36 from participating in the J3 attack on Calcutta.  Or are you taking Calcutta on J3 with only three transports?

    I am not sure where all these round 2 attacks on Calcutta rumors came from but no.  The best time to attack is on Round 3 almost all of the time.  Otherwise, you could allow the Americans to attack the German fleet and make Russia super easy to play!

    I would attack on round 2 under the following circumstances:
    1)  There was a large stack of yummy, handsome Brits in Burma
    2)  America had only the starting or almost only the starting Atlantic Units
    3)  England’s being annoying and trying to put all their destroyers out everywhere (this includes Australia which is literally part of the British Commonwealth)

    Otherwise, attack on round 3 with a more decisive victory on both sides of the Prime Meridian.



  • How many transports would US have to have to liberate London with? 10 transports? Or how many warships. My germany has 3 subs 1 dd 1 cruiser 1bb 1 ac 10 planes that can hit a US fleet. How many units would US fleet have to have to not be attacked by 17 units?



  • @Cmdr:

    @JamesG:

    @Cmdr:

    Take Calcutta round 3, don’t split the fleet.

    Are you attacking on J2?  Because if you are not either the UK or ANZ should be able to get a warship into SZ37 on turn 2, which will block any transports in SZ36 from participating in the J3 attack on Calcutta.  Or are you taking Calcutta on J3 with only three transports?

    I am not sure where all these round 2 attacks on Calcutta rumors came from but no.  The best time to attack is on Round 3 almost all of the time.  Otherwise, you could allow the Americans to attack the German fleet and make Russia super easy to play!

    I would attack on round 2 under the following circumstances:
    1)  There was a large stack of yummy, handsome Brits in Burma
    2)  America had only the starting or almost only the starting Atlantic Units
    3)  England’s being annoying and trying to put all their destroyers out everywhere (this includes Australia which is literally part of the British Commonwealth)

    Otherwise, attack on round 3 with a more decisive victory on both sides of the Prime Meridian.

    Jenn,

    You are missing my point.  What I’m saying is if you don’t declare war on UK/ANZ on J2, then you can’t prevent them from getting a warship to SZ37 on turn 2.  That warship will prevent any TRNs in SZ36 from participating in a J3 assault on Calcutta.  So a six TRN attack on Calcutta on J3 is impossible unless Japan declares war on J2.  Assuming of course UK/ANZ have at least one warship in range of SZ37 going into turn two (a reasonable assumption).

    So it seems Japan’s options for an early round attack on Calcutta are a J2 declaration of war followed by a J3 sacking of India, or a J3 declaration followed by a J4 attack on Calcutta.

    The questions are:

    1. What are the best things for the US to do to make the Axis pay for J2 attack?
      or
      2a) How much harder is it to take India J4 after the UK gets another round to stack?
      2b) Does the extra round Japan has to spend staging for a J4 attack on Calcutta give the ANZ and the US enough time to prepare for Japan swinging back east?


  • @theROCmonster:

    How many transports would US have to have to liberate London with? 10 transports? Or how many warships. My germany has 3 subs 1 dd 1 cruiser 1bb 1 ac 10 planes that can hit a US fleet. How many units would US fleet have to have to not be attacked by 17 units?

    Well by turn 2 in units already in their posession their US can have 1 sub, 2DD, 3 Cruisers, 1BB, 1AC with fighter and Tac on it and 3 transports in sz101(east coast). Not a bad sized little fleet to start with, and then factor in the US having 52IPCs to spend on turn 1 with the ability to place up 6 units in sz101 and you can extrapolate from there. I mean right off the bat I could see adding 1BB and 1AC and a Tac(total = 47IPC) to sz101 on turn 1, which I think would already be more then enough to over power the German naval units you listed. Then spend turn 2 and 3 adding transports and cannon fodder units like Destroyers(of which you could add 6 of in one turn for a total of 8 ) and Subs(of which you could add 8 in 1 turn for a total of 9), or even Cruisers(which you could add 4 of in one turn for a total of 7) to counter the German air units you listed. Now the only question is how large on an occupation force does Germany have in London and how many transports will the US need to add (as I have a feeling 3 wont be enough).


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