Scaling of FMG & HBG Pieces - Please Vote!



  • Please vote! I know that FMG’s German set is probably in molding by now, but we still have time to change future sets.

    This is your chance to be heard if you don’t like the size of the FMG truck, or think HBG’s pieces should match the FMG scale.



  • @reloader-1:

    Please vote! I know that FMG’s German set is probably in molding by now, but we still have time to change future sets.

    This is your chance to be heard if you don’t like the size of the FMG truck, or think HBG’s pieces should match the FMG scale.

    Yeah, but didn’t someone just buy like 80 of those FMG trucks from Coach’s site.  My attittude is to each his own.  I have a feeling down the road that truck is gonna be a huge collectors item.



  • Both companies deliver high quality products, but I prefere the HBG scale. A light tank should not have the same size as a Tiger tank, and the Italian truck is just a monster.
    No offense, just saying


  • Customizer

    I picked the first option.  I think HBG has a little better idea about proper scaling, although some of his armor pieces may be a bit too small (eg.  the Shermans in his Marines sets).  I think FMG’s tanks are the right proportion to each other and probably the armored car as well.

    My only real complaint would be the truck.  It’s too dang big.  I wasn’t liking the first look we got at the German truck and halftrack next to the King Tiger, although I think FMG may have scaled the truck and halftrack down a bit and made the King Tiger a little bigger, so it may not be quite so bad.  I still think that trucks and halftracks should be smaller like the trucks from BOTB and halftracks from Europe and Pacific 1940.
    Also, HBG’s Opel Maultier, while better scaled than the clunky Italian truck, is still too big I think.


  • '12

    @reloader-1:

    Please vote! I know that FMG’s German set is probably in molding by now, but we still have time to change future sets.

    This is your chance to be heard if you don’t like the size of the FMG truck, or think HBG’s pieces should match the FMG scale.

    No offense, but I don’t like the idea of changing future sets when some are already done - you’d only create MORE inconsistency among the product.  If inconsistency is what you’re trying to avoid, let’s just leave well enough alone.

    The only issues I really care about personally are the fact that the infantry are different (HBGs are VERY large compared to OOB & FMG).  Makes it where as much as I like the HBG sculpts I’m abandoning them (infantry only) and the OOB - FMG is my new standard; HBG equipment & a few OOB equipment pieces supplement (Example: I cannot imagine the US without B-17s or Germany without Ju-88s).  The equipment pieces all look great together - whether or not they’re “actual” scale to each other matters not as much as appearance and play-ability to me.  HBG’s Axis Minor fighters are practically identical to FMG’s Italian fighter in size.

    As far as quality, both equipment sets are equally absolutely brilliant - infantry I give slight edge to FMG because the pieces look a bit cleaner cut.

    My vote is to be thankful for what we’ve been given out there and if people still aren’t satisfied at least they’re a Hell of a lot better off than we were months ago and years ago.  I’ll wait until these guys are making profit before I go howling about what they should do differently.

    Just my thoughts - nothing personal.


  • '12

    I personally like HBGs bigger inf piece better than FMGs maybe cause I like to paint them.



  • @DFWSupertrooper:

    No offense, but I don’t like the idea of changing future sets when some are already done - you’d only create MORE inconsistency among the product.  If inconsistency is what you’re trying to avoid, let’s just leave well enough alone.

    Disagree completely. As of now, FMG has great pieces, and so does HBG. Only a few are badly sized, such as infantry or the absolutely huge truck.

    The good news is that HBG will most likely produce a truck for Italy that is proper sized, so we will have a usable piece. It would be a shame for future sets to keep making Godzilla sized truck and elven infantry just for the sake of consistency. As it stands, if FMG changes his scale all he really has that is out of scale is the infantry, truck, and possibly armored car.

    I have yet to see one person like the scale of the truck, militaryman being the exception and I don’t think even he likes it. What is the point of continuing something that the market strongly dislikes?

    Also, I think that HBG’s Axis Minor soldier is in perfect scale with OOB units. His Marines are big, and FMG’s are small.

    Infantry:

    Which looks out of place?

    OOB comparison:


  • Customizer

    DFWSupertrooper makes a very good point that I hadn’t considered.  Italy is already made, there is no changing that.  Germany is in production right now which means the mold is already forged so really there is no changing there either.  SO, whether we like the larger trucks or not, we already have two countries with the current scaling practice.  If we were to convince Jeremy to make the trucks and/or halftracks smaller for USA and future nations, then they won’t look right next to Italy’s or Germany’s trucks/halftracks.

    Maybe we should leave well enough alone on this subject.



  • Remember that we have the luxury of two companies working together. If Germany’s truck is too big, we have the Opel Maultier from the HBG set.

    However, it would be a shame for FMG to keep making huge trucks that everyone thinks are too big. By doing so, HBG is forced to waste a mold slot or two on a truck piece, rather than on other units we may want. Let’s not give up on the pieces we want just because two came out badly!

    Edit: Also, even if 2 molds have been done, that still leaves:

    US
    UK
    USSR
    Japan
    France
    China
    Canada
    Anzac
    Neutrals

    There’s an elephant in the room - oh, it’s just the Italian truck:



  • @knp7765:

    I still think that trucks and halftracks should be smaller like the trucks from BOTB and halftracks from Europe and Pacific 1940.

    Please, please please, no not that small.

    For those slightly arthritic, ham fisted adults among us, those units are nearly impossible to handle.  The AA40 mech units are just ever so slightly too small for people like myself to work with.  The best I can do is push them around the board (which tends to be difficult with other units in the way).  If they were slightly larger than that, then fine … but definately not BotB size trucks … /shudder.



  • Rorsach, I agree with you that mechs are small, but BotB trucks? They are the same size as tanks in the game! I think you got a little confused there. The BotB trucks are significantly bigger than the 1940 mechs.

    In fact, the trucks are taller than some tanks, and almost as wide…

    If you compare with the pictures above, the HBG and OOB trucks are nearly as wide as the Sherman, which is not a small piece.

    Compare the two (US mech vs US truck):


  • '12

    @reloader-1:

    Disagree completely. As of now, FMG has great pieces, and so does HBG. Only a few are badly sized, such as infantry or the absolutely huge truck.

    The good news is that HBG will most likely produce a truck for Italy that is proper sized, so we will have a usable piece. It would be a shame for future sets to keep making Godzilla sized truck and elven infantry just for the sake of consistency. As it stands, if FMG changes his scale all he really has that is out of scale is the infantry, truck, and possibly armored car.

    I have yet to see one person like the scale of the truck, militaryman being the exception and I don’t think even he likes it. What is the point of continuing something that the market strongly dislikes?

    Also, I think that HBG’s Axis Minor soldier is in perfect scale with OOB units. His Marines are big, and FMG’s are small.

    OK, look, all I’m saying is…you’re singular beef with FMG pieces seems to really be the truck - and I can’t argue with that - it’s a lot bigger than the other pieces - not as much an overall scale philosophy issue as a simple fluke/error with one piece/sculpt.  As you mentioned, one can easily substitute the HBG Opel if they prefer (about the same size as the other FMG/HBG vehicles and both common).

    But, c’mon…no one can argue that the FMG infantry don’t look slightly superior in quality (regardless of any size differences - they’re just cleanly made and not as “bulky” as the HBG ones appear.  HBG ones are great, no doubt.

    On MY game board anyway, the pieces all being small, detailed, and clean is most important - these aren’t intended to be scaled miniatures for displaying stuff or setting up massive battlefields with hex table maps - they have to fit in a relatively tiny space sometimes - so IMHO the size guides FMG chose are perfectly fine.

    As I said before, I intend to fully dump my OOB pieces back into a box and use FMG/HBG and only a couple of IMO WW2 classics, so I don’t give a hang about the fact that HBG measures up to OOB infantry - OOB infantry are dead to me (haha).  So, I have to choose FMG vs HBG and clear winner in my book is FMG.

    Again, we all have our opinions, and I certainly don’t mean you have to do it like me - but as knp & I both agree (and I think others), what’s done is done to some extent and I’d rather have all the FMG future pieces match up with the ones already done - Italian truck consider a fluke that they can avoid going forward certainly.  Their infantry should match their Italian infantry IMHO.  And their fighters should match their other fighters, etc, etc…


  • Customizer

    Everyone,

    I agree that the FMG Italian Truck is WAY TOO BIG!  I also agree that HBG has the BEST SCALING FORMULA for it’s units.

    I would hope that FMG might change it’s “scaling formula” to the one HBG uses for their future units that haven’t been sculpted yet.

    I will continue to buy everything that HBG and FMG produce.  And I will be VERY THANKFUL to them both for their accomplishments in bringing these units to the marketplace for ALL of us gamers to enjoy.

    But I must say,  I would very much appreciate having Trucks in the proper proportion to the other units(as HBG has done).  Although I bought the Giant FMG Italian Trucks I will NEVER use them.  I bought them to help out FMGs sales,…and I’m mature enough to appreciate what they’ve made available to us without any major complaint.  However, I would hope the FUTURE units(Trucks) that haven’t been sculpted yet would be produced in the proper proportion that EVERYONE seems to prefer.

    Again, I believe both HBG and FMG have provided us with some units that we can all enjoy.  There is room for improvement but I believe they deserve a LOT of THANKS.  Please keep up the Good Work(and hopefully improve).

    “Tall Paul”



  • DFW,

    My beef in the Italian set is with the truck and armored car.

    However, in future sets if FMG sticks with the same 20mm scale for all pieces, I will have a problem with the Tiger I/Tiger II (they should be the bigger 22mm size of the OOB Panther & Sherman). The point of this poll is to make sure that future sets have the right scaling for our needs.

    Regarding the Italian infantry, I agree they are very nice. However, the OOB infantry pieces are actually on par or better than any of the infantry pieces we have seen so far from HBG or FMG. Honestly, these are the last pieces I’d get rid of, as the quality is quite good OOB.

    Look, I’m being a realist about this; at the current rate of production, FMG will be done with all the sets in about 6-7 years. Even at a generous 6 month/set timetable, it is still 3-4 years of production. I am trying to make sure that a. FMG scales properly so that his pieces are usable with what we currently have and b. in case he doesn’t complete all nations, we have pieces in usable scale.

    It’s nice that all the trucks will match, and infantry - albeit not before 2015.

    To sum it up, in this Italian set it was a happy coincidence that the 20mm scale that FMG chose for all his pieces coincided with the 18/20/22mm scale that HBG is using (light/med/heavy). The Carro Armato is a medium tank, and so it fits perfectly with the HBG PzIII. However, as previously discussed, the truck is huge, and will remain huge at the 20mm scale, and on the other end of the spectrum a German Tiger I or Tiger II would actually be undersized at the 20mm scale.

    I’m going to be mixing and matching pieces from OOB, HBG, and FMG. So far, FMG has proven he can make great airplanes, has a great infantry sculptor (albeit his mold needs some HGH), and has some decent ships (quality & detail wise I would argue that OOB is better, but that is another story). What he is lacking is a cohesive scale in land units, and I would like to help him with that. Also, his well-documented problems in getting product to market are very troubling.

    HBG, on the other hand, has shown great detail and scale in his land units, although his infantry could use some work. He has shown an ability to get product to market quickly - by my count he is releasing a set every two months, which is impressive. He has also shown a good ability to improve quality from his first set (Marines) to his second set (Axis Minors).

    The way I look at it, I will use the best pieces from both HBG and FMG. For example, from the Italian set I kept the aircraft, the ships, and the tank, td, and artillery. I have no use for undersized infantry, and the truck and armored car were too big. I do know that HBG will probably produce an Italian set that will have an armored car and truck in good scale, and I will buy those whenever they come out. From HBG, I kept all the land units (especially the PzIII), the infantry with cap, and the artillery piece, leaving the FW 190 and the AT infantry out.



  • Gents, I am using all different units in various scales in metal and plastic from GHQ, Heroics and Ross, Davco/Navwar, OOB, FMG, HBG and Tide of Iron.  I am using Ben Steins German units to rep H Class Battleships and UK Vanguard. The Officers all are FM Rommel, SS Infantry and Regular Infantry are being used as supplemental Germans and Axis Commanders. The 88mm Flaks and multiple rocket launchers are being used by all Axis Forces.
    Truck issue with the Italian FMG, Try to think of it as a heavy truck and you won’t have a problem with the scale size. Italian army of WWII had light, Medium and Heavy trucks just like all other nations including the IJA.  If you spend time painting them like many of us long time AA players do, then size is negated by the massive new painted inventory of playing units.
    AGAIN HBG AND FMG YOU ROCK!  KEEP PRODUCING UNITS THAT AVLON HILL/WIZARDS OF THE COAST WILL NEVER CREATE!

    WARRIOR888


  • Customizer

    @reloader-1:

    leaving the FW 190 and the AT infantry out.

    Hey reloader, I understand the AT Infantry, not crazy about them myself, but why don’t you like the Fw 190?  I thought those looked pretty good.



  • @WARRIOR888:

    Gents, I am using all different units in various scales in metal and plastic from GHQ, Heroics and Ross, Davco/Navwar, OOB, FMG, HBG and Tide of Iron.  I am using Ben Steins German units to rep H Class Battleships and UK Vanguard. The Officers all are FM Rommel, SS Infantry and Regular Infantry are being used as supplemental Germans and Axis Commanders. The 88mm Flaks and multiple rocket launchers are being used by all Axis Forces.
    Truck issue with the Italian FMG, Try to think of it as a heavy truck and you won’t have a problem with the scale size. Italian army of WWII had light, Medium and Heavy trucks just like all other nations including the IJA.  If you spend time painting them like many of us long time AA players do, then size is negated by the massive new painted inventory of playing units.
    AGAIN HBG AND FMG YOU ROCK!  KEEP PRODUCING UNITS THAT AVLON HILL/WIZARDS OF THE COAST WILL NEVER CREATE!

    WARRIOR888

    Warrior can you show us a pick of a ghq tank and axis and allies tank so that we can see the relative size diffrerence? Was thinking of purchasing some tanks from ghq and wanted to know if they match up nicely with the axis and allies tanks.



  • militaryman077,
    I will gladly do that after I get moved into my new house.  Everything is in storage.  GHQ is a US company and is fairly expensive to purchase and their barrels on tanks and artillery need TLC.  Heroics and Ross and Davco/Navwar are English companies in the UK.  Their products have less detail but they don’t break as quickly as GHQ from rough handling.  The UK companies cost less but, US Customs and shipping charges may bite you like a Great White!

    WARRIOR888



  • @WARRIOR888:

    militaryman077,
    I will gladly do that after I get moved into my new house.  Everything is in storage.  GHQ is a US company and is fairly expensive to purchase and their barrels on tanks and artillery need TLC.  Heroics and Ross and Davco/Navwar are English companies in the UK.  Their products have less detail but they don’t break as quickly as GHQ from rough handling.  The UK companies cost less but, US Customs and shipping charges may bite you like a Great White!

    WARRIOR888

    Thanks, for the info.  I guess I’ll stick with plastic pieces.


  • Customizer

    Hey militaryman077,
    I have some Panzer IIIs from GHQ and as you can see in the picture, the Axis Minors Panzer IIIs are almost exactly the same scale.  I haven’t checked out any other tanks yet because the Panzer IIIs are the only GHQ armor that I have, but I would imagine all of them will come very close.
    I looked up some GHQ armor on their site.  For most light and medium tanks you get a package of 5 for about $10-$12.  Some heavier tanks only come 3 to a package for the same price.  Like Warrior888 said though, the gun barrels are very fragile.  I wouldn’t think these would be good for playing a board game with.

    GHQ vs Axis Minors.jpg



  • Thanks for the info, Knp.  I guess I’ll just have to use metal units that dont have fragile parts that jut out, like a bare halftrack.

    P.S. I just purchase a package of French armor GHQ. “FR1” it came with large tank a smaller one and three half tracks. but you were right about the barrel. It came detached from the turret and and so thin and curvy that it was not salvageable at all. I’m sticking with plastic pieces as I said.



  • The problem with scaling can be easily solved if FMG uses the current axis and allies infantry pieces as a guide instead of having used the original pieces, which were a tab smaller.  The original pieces that seem to have been used  can be identified by the simple “Made in China” on the under side of the piece.  These original pieces are actually smaller than the present axis and allies infantry pieces.

    I took one of the original pieces and put the newer FMG italian pieces next to it and it was a perfect match in terms of height, whereas the present axis and allies infantry piece was taller.



  • Gents, have any you of ever been on a WWII Sherman tank or a 2 1/2 Ton Army truck?  WWII US Trucks where built bigger in size compared to a Sherman tank.  UK tanks until the Churchill and Comets for the most part except the QLT trucks was bigger than their tanks. Jap tanks where smaller than Jap trucks.  So what is the  beef about the trucks being bigger?
    Example a US WWII Sherman was a mere 6.16 m in length. A USA GMC 6x6 was 6.82 m in length.
    A US M5 Halftrack was only in Length:6.33 m.
    A UK  Bedford QL was 5.99 m in length. A Infantry Tank Mk I “Matilda I” was only 4.85 m in length.
    A Infantry Tank Mk IV “Churchill” was only 7.44 m in length. An AEC Matador Truck was only in Length: 6.32 m.
    A German Tiger Ausf E1 was 8.45 m in length, a Panther Tank was only 6.88 m in length. A German Opel Blitz Truck was only in Length: 6.105 m
    PzKpfw VI Ausf. B, Tiger II was only 10.3 m in length.  A German SD.Kfz 251/1 Ausf D Halftrack was only in Length:5.80 m.
    So if some FMG and HBG trucks are bigger than the Tanks and halftracks thats the way it really was in WWII.
    So if any of you are WWII minature collectors as i am, then size is important only from that aspect.  The non-military minded war game player most likely dosn’t care about scale or size.

    WARRIOR888


  • '14

    @WARRIOR888:

    Gents, have any you of ever been on a WWII Sherman tank or a 2 1/2 Ton Army truck?   WWII US Trucks where built bigger in size compared to a Sherman tank.  UK tanks until the Churchill and Comets for the most part except the QLT trucks was bigger than their tanks. Jap tanks where smaller than Jap trucks.  So what is the  beef about the trucks being bigger?
    Example a US WWII Sherman was a mere 6.16 m in length. A USA GMC 6x6 was 6.82 m in length.
    A US M5 Halftrack was only in Length:6.33 m.
    A UK  Bedford QL was 5.99 m in length. A Infantry Tank Mk I “Matilda I” was only 4.85 m in length.
    A Infantry Tank Mk IV “Churchill” was only 7.44 m in length. An AEC Matador Truck was only in Length: 6.32 m.
    A German Tiger Ausf E1 was 8.45 m in length, a Panther Tank was only 6.88 m in length. A German Opel Blitz Truck was only in Length: 6.105 m
    PzKpfw VI Ausf. B, Tiger II was only 10.3 m in length.  A German SD.Kfz 251/1 Ausf D Halftrack was only in Length:5.80 m.
    So if some FMG and HBG trucks are bigger than the Tanks and halftracks thats the way it really was in WWII.
    So if any of you are WWII minature collectors as i am, then size is important only from that aspect.  The non-military minded war game player most likely dosn’t care about scale or size.

    WARRIOR888

    The biggest issue here is comparing FMG units to the OOB units. HBG has stated that he is scaling off of the OOB pieces so all pieces can be used. FMG’s truck is 1 1/2 times bigger than HBG and OOB’s truck, this is the issue.


  • '10

    @Tigerman77:

    @WARRIOR888:

    Gents, have any you of ever been on a WWII Sherman tank or a 2 1/2 Ton Army truck?   WWII US Trucks where built bigger in size compared to a Sherman tank.  UK tanks until the Churchill and Comets for the most part except the QLT trucks was bigger than their tanks. Jap tanks where smaller than Jap trucks.  So what is the  beef about the trucks being bigger?
    Example a US WWII Sherman was a mere 6.16 m in length. A USA GMC 6x6 was 6.82 m in length.
    A US M5 Halftrack was only in Length:6.33 m.
    A UK  Bedford QL was 5.99 m in length. A Infantry Tank Mk I “Matilda I” was only 4.85 m in length.
    A Infantry Tank Mk IV “Churchill” was only 7.44 m in length. An AEC Matador Truck was only in Length: 6.32 m.
    A German Tiger Ausf E1 was 8.45 m in length, a Panther Tank was only 6.88 m in length. A German Opel Blitz Truck was only in Length: 6.105 m
    PzKpfw VI Ausf. B, Tiger II was only 10.3 m in length.  A German SD.Kfz 251/1 Ausf D Halftrack was only in Length:5.80 m.
    So if some FMG and HBG trucks are bigger than the Tanks and halftracks thats the way it really was in WWII.
    So if any of you are WWII minature collectors as i am, then size is important only from that aspect.  The non-military minded war game player most likely dosn’t care about scale or size.

    WARRIOR888

    The biggest issue here is comparing FMG units to the OOB units. HBG has stated that he is scaling off of the OOB pieces so all pieces can be used. FMG’s truck is 1 1/2 times bigger than HBG and OOB’s truck, this is the issue.

    Lets not worry about the Truck size moving forward.  Italy will have the biggest truck…  There is a story behind it I will share soon.


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