• '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Clyde85:

    @Cmdr:

    England’s not reinforcing the fleet, so it’s only a matter of time before you can overwhelm them with German submarines (SZ 105 can get to 92 in one round.)

    Can subs pass through the straits of Gibraltar with out it being Axis owned? Are they not held to the smae rules as surface ships? I ask because I really dont know. Also, since you’re doing sealion the US is comming on turn 3, how would the subs get past the US fleet that would surely get placed in sz91? or are you planning on building them in sz93?

    Yup.  Gibraltar is a special case, explicitly written so that submarines can pass through even when surface ships cannot.


  • You know what Grasshopper I apologize, I realize this is its own topic and I really shouldnt be posting it here.

    I didnt realize until I re-read through the thread that I was hijacking your thread and I didnt mean to do that.

    Sorry mate, I’ll start my own thread on this topic

    @Cmdr:

    Yup.  Gibraltar is a special case, explicitly written so that submarines can pass through even when surface ships cannot.

    Thanks for clearing that up Jen

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    BTW, that’s a two edged sword!  Watch out for American submarines too!


  • @Cmdr:

    BTW, that’s a two edged sword!  Watch out for American submarines too!

    ……what??  :? The US and Britian are allies, why would I, as the UK, need to worry about American subs?

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Clyde85:

    @Cmdr:

    BTW, that’s a two edged sword!  Watch out for American submarines too!

    ……what??  :? The US and Britian are allies, why would I, as the UK, need to worry about American subs?

    The Germans and Italians might need to hide behind the protection of Gibraltar just as England and America may one day need to do the same.


  • Destroyer in the Gib Straights negates the ability for enemy subs to cross undetected, no?

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Spendo02:

    Destroyer in the Gib Straights negates the ability for enemy subs to cross undetected, no?

    Well, the destroyer would force a fight, but it only takes 1 submarine (theoretically) to kill the destroyer and let 99 submarines pass through undedected.


  • @Cmdr:

    The Germans and Italians might need to hide behind the protection of Gibraltar just as England and America may one day need to do the same.

    This still dosnt make any sense to me, what are you trying to say here? I am picturing a US fleet sitting in sz91 creating a problem for the German subs to pass through undetected, please tell me how the above statment is related to this.  :?

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Clyde85:

    @Cmdr:

    The Germans and Italians might need to hide behind the protection of Gibraltar just as England and America may one day need to do the same.

    This still dosnt make any sense to me, what are you trying to say here? I am picturing a US fleet sitting in sz91 creating a problem for the German subs to pass through undetected, please tell me how the above statment is related to this.  :?

    Imagine 9 American submarines in SZ 91 and small Italian fleet in SZ 92.  That’s one edge of the sword.  The inverse (surface fleet in SZ 91, Italian submarines in SZ 92) is the other side of the sword.

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    @Clyde85:

    You know what Grasshopper I apologize, I realize this is its own topic and I really shouldnt be posting it here.

    I didnt realize until I re-read through the thread that I was hijacking your thread and I didnt mean to do that.

    Sorry mate, I’ll start my own thread on this topic

    @Cmdr:

    Yup.  Gibraltar is a special case, explicitly written so that submarines can pass through even when surface ships cannot.

    Thanks for clearing that up Jen

    I’m not offended one bit, and we are after all talking about the UK, however, if you want other opinions about your IC in Egypt, it may need its own thread…. I seem to remember an Alpha+2 topic of the same nature that spanned 15 pages.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    The problem with the Egypt IC (with or without losing London) is it is very hard to hold agianst Italy.  Not impossible (if London is around) but very hard.


  • @Cmdr:

    The problem with the Egypt IC (with or without losing London) is it is very hard to hold agianst Italy.  Not impossible (if London is around) but very hard.

    How? How does Italy recover enough from a UK1 Taranto raid to become an issue to Egypt? The Italian starting forces in North Africa are not really all that threating to the UK position to begin with. A strong defensive posture on land couppled with an agressive naval posture should keep Italy from doing much of anything in Africa and the middle east.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Alexandria + Sudan with Italians flanking you when you can no longer build units in Egypt can feel very threatening.


  • @Cmdr:

    Alexandria + Sudan with Italians flanking you when you can no longer build units in Egypt can feel very threatening.

    If this statment is based on the idea that the UK has built an IC on Egypt then I dont see how this situation would occure. I believe that UK forces (ships and airforces) operating out of India can work in conjunction with Mechanized forces from Egypt and take out Italian forces in Ethiopia on UK1 before they even get to move. The Italian thrust across Alexandria, which Im assuming would come on I1 wouldnt really have much impact either as by next turn the UK could (and likely would) use the IC to reinforce themselves and counter-attack the Italians on UK2 or 3, effectively wiping out all axis threats to Africa for the next 2 or 3 turns.

  • '21 '19 '18 '17 '16

    Alternate set of UK moves with the aim of attacking the German fleet in sea zone 112 on round 2.  No changes to the Indian side.

    United Kingdom #1

    Purchase new units (London) = $28

    4 submarines
    1 mech inf

    Purchase new units (India) = $17

    4 infantry
    1 AA gun

    Combat movements

    Attack SZ#96 with
    1 tactical bomber from SZ#98 (Egypt)
    1 fighter from Malta (Egypt)

    Attack subs in #106 or #109 if any destroyers left but all three should be gone

    Non-combat movements

    SZ 91 cruiser holds

    SZ 110 to SZ 91 BB and CA (hiding from german air attack on turn 2)

    SZ 98 to 92 all ships, pick up AA gun and infantry from Malta, move to Gibraltar.

    Move destroyer from 71 to 81

    Move cruiser and destroyer from 39 into 76

    Move battleship from 37 into 78

    Move 1 infantry and 1 mec infantry from Egypt and 1 tank from Alexandria to Anglo Egypt Sudan

    Move 1 infantry and 1 artillery from Alexandria to Egypt

    Move 2 infantry from south Africa to Rhodesia

    Transport 2 infantry from India to Celebes

    Fly both India air units to Madagascar

    Fly Burma fighter to India

    Fly Gibraltar fighter to London

    Fly fighter and tac bomber from SZ 96 to CV in SZ 92 or Gibraltar

    Move Canadian forces east

    Transport Canadian infantry and tank to London (if possible)

    Block Gibraltar with destroyer from 106 (if possible)

    Transport 2 infantry to Gibraltar (if possible)

    move 1 infantry from west India to eastern Persia

    Move 1 infantry and 1 artillery from India to west India

    Place new units

    Place 4 submarines in sea zone 110
    Place one mech in south africa
    Place 4 infantry and 1 AA gun in Calcutta

    Collect income

    London = $28 - convoy disruptions

    Calcutta = $17 + $3 for Celebes Island = $20

    On turn 2, the following attack should be possible

    To SZ 112
    UK
    1 BB, 2 CA, 4 SS, 4 fighters, 1 bomber
    Germany defending (expecting the Corrigan patented 13 transports for Sea Lion)
    1 BB, 1 CA, 1 CV, 5 fighters, 13 unarmed transports

    www dskelly com combat simulator shows this attack winning about 80%.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Degrass…welcome to the forums.

    It would be helpful if you put a list of what units are in what sea zones…otherwise, that’s a hard post to follow.


  • @Cmdr:

    It would be helpful if you put a list of what units are in what sea zones…otherwise, that’s a hard post to follow.

    They do list the seazones, nearly every step of the way.

    Good post Degrasse and thanks for getting us back on topic  🙂

    Its an intresting theroy, I just wonder if the capital ships will survive through round 2 German attacks. Also, why fly the fighters to Madagascar?

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    @Clyde85:

    @Cmdr:

    It would be helpful if you put a list of what units are in what sea zones…otherwise, that’s a hard post to follow.

    They do list the seazones, nearly every step of the way.

    Good post Degrasse and thanks for getting us back on topic  🙂

    Its an intresting theroy, I just wonder if the capital ships will survive through round 2 German attacks. Also, why fly the fighters to Madagascar?

    I have them going to Madagascar as well, it’s a very safe landing and they can hit Anglo Sudan on their way to Egypt next turn.


  • An alternative for Madagascar is Tanganika (safe from Italians in case they haven’t been attacked in turn 1, which i suppose is the reason to land in madagacar), abit closer to some places


  • With a destroyer present can’t planes attack subs?

  • '21 '19 '18 '17 '16

    I redid the moves to show units in detail and where this set of moves differs from the first set posted.  Still has the aim of attacking the German fleet in sea zone 112 on round 2.  No changes to the Indian side.  As for aircraft hitting submarines, only if a destroyer is present.

    CV = aircraft carrier
    CA = cruiser
    BB = battleship
    DD = destroyer
    SS = submarine
    AP = troop transport
    I’m using standard USN abbreviations, I’ve noticed other players like other abbreviations.

    United Kingdom #1

    Purchase new units (London) = $28

    4 SS (changed)
    1 mech inf (changed)

    Purchase new units (India) = $17

    4 infantry (original)
    1 AA gun (original)

    Combat movements

    Attack SZ#96 with
    1 tactical bomber from SZ#98 (Egypt) (changed)
    1 fighter from Malta  (changed)

    Attack subs in #106 or #109 if any DDs left but all three should be gone (original)

    Non-combat movements

    SZ 91 CA holds (change)

    SZ 110 to SZ 91 BB and CA (hiding from german air attack on turn 2) (change)

    SZ 98 to 92 AP, DD, CA, and CV, pick up AA gun and infantry from Malta, move to Gibraltar. (change)

    Fly Gibraltar fighter to London (change)

    Fly fighter and tac bomber from SZ 96 to CV in SZ 92 or Gibraltar (change)

    Fly both India air units to Tangayika (change)

    Move DD from 71 to 81 (original)

    Move CA and DD from 39 into 76 (original)

    Move BB from 37 into 78 (original)

    Move 1 infantry and 1 mec infantry from Egypt and 1 tank from Alexandria to Anglo Egypt Sudan (original)

    Move 1 infantry and 1 artillery from Alexandria to Egypt (original)

    Move 2 infantry from south Africa to Rhodesia (original)

    Transport 2 infantry from India to Celebes (original)

    Move 1 AP from SZ 37 to SZ 44 (original)

    Fly Burma fighter to India (original)

    Move Canadian forces east (original)

    move 1 infantry from west India to eastern Persia (original)

    Move 1 infantry and 1 artillery from India to west India (original)

    Place new units

    Place 4 SSs in sea zone 110 (change)
    Place one mech in south africa (change)
    Place 4 infantry and 1 AA gun in Calcutta (original)

    Collect income

    London = $28 - convoy disruptions

    Calcutta = $17 + $3 for Celebes Island = $20

    On turn 2, the following attack should be possible

    To SZ 112
    UK
    1 BB, 2 CA, 4 SS, 4 fighters, 1 bomber
    Germany defending (expecting the Corrigan patented 13 transports for Sea Lion)
    1 BB, 1 CA, 1 CV, 5 fighters, 13 unarmed transports


  • Degrasse, i know it’s just a detail, but may i ask why you chose to take Celebes (and not Sumatra or Java, which is 1 IPC more)?

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @special:

    Degrasse, i know it’s just a detail, but may i ask why you chose to take Celebes (and not Sumatra or Java, which is 1 IPC more)?

    With UKP?

    Here is why I would:  Celebes for England gives them an even number of IPCs.  Australia starts with an even number, so it’s more convenient to give them Java/Sumatra or both.

    I like even numbers!

  • '10

    @special:

    Degrasse, i know it’s just a detail, but may i ask why you chose to take Celebes (and not Sumatra or Java, which is 1 IPC more)?

    In my opinion, the idea to take Cel 1st and Sum 2nd is : the battle is harder on Sum than in Cel, since Cel is much more likely to be in range of planes than Sum is. If you want planes to take Sum, then you will probably be forced to bring an aircraft carrier in sz41, which is often not a safe place to be. That means bringing more units if you don’t want to risk being wiped, or just send a tr and hope that the land battle will be won.
    In any case, it’s almost always more annoying for the Axis to have to take Sum than Cel when it’s defended.

    Now, deciding to take Cel or Sum on 1st round should depend on what moves and purchases have been done on J1.
    As a matter of fact, when a player says : “i always do that particular move” on any turn other than G1, you just know that this player can’t be playing optimally.

  • '21 '19 '18 '17 '16

    I just copied Young Grasshopper’s moves for the Pacific side, I haven’t studied that side much.  I’ve been intrigued by the Sea Lion puzzle and thus mostly have been thinking of moves and counter moves.

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