Research & Development Discussion - Delta+1

Should there be a limit on how many IPCs you can save?  I mean, if IPCs really represent “1 million man hours of military industrial production”, wouldn’t saving all your IPCs for a turn be like laying off the entire workforce for 3 months and then making them all work double time the following 3 months?

@Vance:

Should there be a limit on how many IPCs you can save?  I mean, if IPCs really represent “1 million man hours of military industrial production”, wouldn’t saving all your IPCs for a turn be like laying off the entire workforce for 3 months and then making them all work double time the following 3 months?

Do you mean in general?

I’d say no limits, since saving IPC is giving up the advantage of time.

Like maybe you can’t save up more than 25% or something?

No! No need to limit things!

You know, I’d love a system based on how much money you earn, not how much you have on hand.  The only problems I have these:

1)  The enemy will take your land before your next round.  Do we want this to be the case?
2)  Technology comes before combat moves, so you cannot take territories to get your income up, do we want that to be the case?

BTW, I am only offering suggestions.

That said, I see no problem with a country saving IPC.  It’s a good tactic even now, without having technology.  You cannot afford to put out XYZ or you want to save cash so you can get X-number of infantry or whatever.  Thing is, if a nation is shooting itself in the foot (it has the cash, it has the ability to use the cash and there is a productive use for the cash that is less and less productive if you wait more and more rounds) then I see no problem with them doing so.

I see your argument, it makes logical sense, but I dismiss it for two reasons:
1)  It was not voted on in the original poll.
2)  I like the cash on hand system better since it allows nations to save the one or two IPC needed to qualify for a technology.  Not sure about the world at large, but I’ve often found myself with 1 or 2 extra IPC that I just had no valid reason to spend, this would put those to use.

@mantlefan:

I already noted this as well, you can take the territories; the turn before. Then you need to try to hold them. Therefore this system does not reward the 1 to 2 inf + ftr trading that we so often see on the Russian front.

A system based on income encourages aggressiveness and putting more troops on the line. A system based on cash on hand encourages sluggish playing and minimal actual commitment to territories. If you want dice you have to earn them by taking and holding territories, rather than slowing the game down to wait for a miracle tech to save the day.

well that makes a lot of sense.  You are convincing me that the tech should be based off income instead of CoH.  As Jen mentioned people can still save up for purchases, but not in order to get more tech dice.  Moving the game forward at a fast pace should be a goal of ours, we don’t want 20+ round online games to be the standard.

Maybe for the final vote, two versions could be made: 1 based on cash on hand, and one based on income from territories.

@JimmyHat:

@Cmdr:

I see your argument, it makes logical sense, but I dismiss it for two reasons:
1)  It was not voted on in the original poll.
2)  I like the cash on hand system better since it allows nations to save the one or two IPC needed to qualify for a technology.  Not sure about the world at large, but I’ve often found myself with 1 or 2 extra IPC that I just had no valid reason to spend, this would put those to use.

Those ipcs always get spent the next round.  I agree with mantlefan that basing it off CoH will slow the game down, like you said above.  It sounds like you would be willing to save 3-5 ipcs one round if it meant another tech die next round no?

Yes, I’d save 1-5 IPC to get up to the next bracket, it’s cheaper than buying 4 dice.

I am good with limiting you to up to 5 IPC saved from the previous round to be added in.  Not sure how you would work it on the table top, but in ABattlemap you could use the Researchers column in the income table to track that.  Probably on the table I’d have to slip the saved cash that is counted under my setup tile or something else.

No arbitrary limits, if you can save money then you can save as much as you like towards tech.

Hey Mantlefan, if you find some free time you would mind going over our other Delta proposals?  Getting a new set of eyes would be great.  I would suggest reading the original proposal, making comments on that and then see if that area was covered.  UK Exile I think is the next one to be completed, and then neutral blocks and aa guns.

Also using A2 as the base we are trying to achieve balance between the two sides while giving the axis (who hold initiative) multiple avenues of attack.  Its tricky!

Yes, I understood what you were saying, Mantlefan.  It makes sense in certain aspects, but I feel given just how expensive it is to buy tech dice (32 IPC for the first 4, 48 for the first 6 with a maximum of 6 dice per turn) that countriest who cannot save their cash may not be able to participate in getting technologies.    Pretty much the only way smaller countries have to get technologies (mostly India and Australia, but I’ve seen Japan get crushed under the jack-boot of American imperialism as well) is the free dice system.  If they cannot save enough to get that one free die, they might not be able to get any technologies.

Perhaps, and I cannot read your mind, but perhaps you forgot that the price of extra dice was pretty hefty under the new system?  To put it mildly, it would take 50-67% of Germany’s income just to buy a set of dice to augment their free ones.

Here’s a counter proposal we never considered.  Stick with 2 charts but have one be the “free dice chart” and the other a “dice only chart” where the free dice chart only has half the abilities of the other.  So if you rolled your free dice and got #3 then you would only get Paratrooper’s technology, not the Heavy Bombers.  If you purchased dice and got #3 then you would get both Paratroopers and Heavy Bombers.

For table top play you throw red dice for purchased tech and white dice for free tech and there you go.  For online you just have two command lines.  On the battleboards (I call all the boards battleboards, not just the actual battleboard) just go with Chart #1 is free and Chart #2 is paid.  You can never get the “free” technology with “paid” dice.  Not that you would want too.  Same for the reverse.

(quoted the rule below, so you don’t have to go back and find it.)

3. Improved Bomber Technology (Combine the following):

• Paratroopers (2 infantry)
• Heavy Bombers (2d6)

BTW, I think that’s a fair balance.  If nations are going to “save up” for free rolls they’re going to need an extra 40 IPC to get up a bracket.  I don’t picture nations doing this, not when they can buy 4 rolls for 32 IPC or 5 rolls for 40 IPC or 6 rolls for 48 IPC.  If they are earning 8 IPC they might buy 2 infantry and save 2 IPC and thus get a free tech roll, but it won’t do them much good even if they get it, they’re already in dire straights.

Well I don’t see any nations saving money so they can purchase other dice.  I think they would save money so they can get more ‘free’ dice and then spend the remaining ipcs on troops.

Strategically, I have to admit if I was Allies and Germ saved ipcs, Russia would then save ipcs.  If Japan saved, then the rest of the allies will save ipcs too.  Since the axis have the initiative the allies have to react to the axis, whats a better way than to try and reach parity in the tech race before fighting?  Plus there are a finite number of techs, once you have them all you can release the dogs of war.  It’d be boring as heck to playtest but I am willing to try it.

Further, a nation’s income is a better arbiter of their material power than CoH, which can be saved by the player.

@mantlefan:

If I could get a little more direction as to which thread(s), I’d love to help.

I believe they are all on the first and second pages in this forum.(house rules)  Each thread will have ‘delta’ or ‘delta1’ in the title and a few pages of dialogue.

I understand the complaint, I’m just saying if you need 40 IPC to get to the next teir, that’s A LOT of saved money!  You’d be far better off spending 32 IPC and getting 4 dice than sitting around with an extra 40 IPC in your pocket each round.

If we were to go for mantlefan’s idea of getting free dice based on income rather than cash on hand, I would suggest that deciding the number of free dice a player will get on the next round should be determined at the Collect Income phase of the current turn.

To make it really simple in face to face games, you could actually get your “research dice” then and hang on to them until next round (unless your buddy steals them out of your box).  Most of us have about 100 extra dice laying around so maybe use some old ugly ones for research dice and save your nice black ones with the rounded edges for rolling battles.  In online games, you would just state the number of free dice you will get next turn and it will be posted for posterity.

At the start of the next turn, you can purchase more dice at Purchase & Repair if you want to.

Ok.  Not sure how that is preferable over getting the ‘free tech rolls’ at the beginning of your round when you R&D.  Seems like one just involves keeping track of a number until your next turn.

Mantlefan’s idea is to have it determined at the beginning of your turn, the R&D turn, in order to make players a bit more tempted to over  defend territories in the hope of holding onto those ipcs for more free tech rolls.  Not sure how its going to playout on the board.  I think we’ll still see a lot of attrition lines of 2 inf 1 ftr attacks and such.

It might give more impetus for Germany to defend France however, the beaches and not Paris.

But what if you lost territories since your last turn?

Mantlefan:

There are two sets of dice.  You get the free dice based on the cash on hand.  The first bracket starts at 10 IPC (if you earn less than 10 IPC, you cant feed your people let alone hire scientists!) and goes up by 40 IPC.  I feel that is a sufficient enough jump between increments of free dice that no one is going to be “saving up” for more dice - and if they do, it’ll be so harmful that they might lose the game because of it.

Before you roll your free dice, you determine if you want to buy more dice.  You must purchase at least 4 dice and cannot purchase more than 6 dice.  Dice are 8 IPC each, so that’s 32-48 IPC just to buy dice to roll at the same time as your free dice.  (You roll all dice together.  So if you buy 4 and get 2 free, then you have 6 dice to roll.)  The cost is so high primarily because you do get free dice.  However, the cost is low enough, I feel, that it is better to buy 4 dice now than save 40 IPC for 1 die next round.

Lastly, if you are not at war you cannot get technology - and China can never get technology.

I’m very much against the idea of free tech rolls for the rich.  (or for anyone for that matter. You want some, you pay for it)
Even a big nation has to pay to do research. Research costs a lot of money.

And the result will still be translated depending on a nation’s income.
If you’re a poor country and you have jet fighters, you can’t produce many of them.

(i must admit that i’m not a tech fan to begin with)