UK Gov't in exile Discussion - Delta 1



  • This thread is for people to give ideas and voice concerns about the “UK Government in Exile” rule that may be added to Political Situation in Delta 1.  I would like to hear your ideas and try to make this rule as good as possible.  Once we reach some kind of consensus I (or anyone else who wants to) will update the draft(s) and we can vote on which one to accept as the final one.

    For more info about Delta 1, please see:  
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=25515.0

    The draft version of the rule is as follows:

    UK Europe government in exile - Version 1 (original)

    If London is captured by an axis power, the capitol of UK Europe moves to Ottawa, Canada.  When an axis power captures London it collects the UK Europe IPCs minus the sum of the value of all UK controlled territories in North America and South America.  The remaining IPCs continue to be held by UK Europe and may be used on the next turn as usual.  As long as London is occupied, the UK government in exile will collect income for UK controlled territories in North and South America.  The government in exile will mobilize units only in UK industrial complexes located in North and South America.   Because trade with Great Britain ceases while London is occupied by the axis, sea zone 106 ceases to be a convoy raid zone until London is liberated.  At the Collect Income phase of the UK Europe turn following the liberation of London, the government of UK Europe returns to London and income is collected for all UK controlled territories on the Europe map.



  • My view on the issue:

    The UK should be licking its wounds, and Canada shouldn’t be a completely helpless victim for Germany.

    So their 7 IPC income should be enough to build some defences or organise a reinforcement ehh… force, but weak enough not to get anything done without US help.
    Germany should collect ALL UK’s money, they earned it (and UK’s income should drop to 7 so that next UK turn Canada can collect their first IPC’s but not build anything yet).
    Only IC’s within Canada can be used. 106 should remain a convoy zone.

    Edit: i’m undecided about Brazil. Headache now 😄



  • One idea I would like to float is a set of possible setup changes that could be proposed as a separate item that would be voted on separately from the Gov’t in Exile rule.  Others in the main Delta 1 thread suggested some great ideas about how the impact of sea lion could be mitigated by Gov’t in Exile plus a few setup changes.  I have adapted these ideas and put them together below.  Please tell me what you think.

    POSSIBLE Setup changes to go with Government in Exile

    The airbase in Scotland will be removed from the Alpha 2 setup.
    An airbase will be added to Nova Scotia (i.e. “Gander airbase” for historical accuracy).

    The fighter in Normandy will be removed from the Alpha 2 setup.
    A fighter will be added to Nova Scotia.

    The transport in z109 will be removed from the Alpha 2 setup.
    A second transport will be added to z106.

    The airbase in Malta will be removed from the Alpha 2 setup.
    An airbase will be added to Egypt.

    As in Alpha 2, there will be an airbase in Gibraltar.



  • @Vance:

    One idea I would like to float is a set of possible setup changes that could be proposed as a separate item that would be voted on separately from the Gov’t in Exile rule.  Others in the main Delta 1 thread suggested some great ideas about how the impact of sea lion could be mitigated by Gov’t in Exile plus a few setup changes.  I have adapted these ideas and put them together below.  Please tell me what you think.

    POSSIBLE Setup changes to go with Government in Exile

    The airbase in Scotland will be removed from the Alpha 2 setup.
    An airbase will be added to Nova Scotia (i.e. “Gander airbase” for historical accuracy).

    The fighter in Normandy will be removed from the Alpha 2 setup.
    A fighter will be added to Nova Scotia.

    The transport in z109 will be removed from the Alpha 2 setup.
    A second transport will be added to z106.

    The airbase in Malta will be removed from the Alpha 2 setup.
    An airbase will be added to Egypt.

    As in Alpha 2, there will be an airbase in Gibraltar.

    i like it, except for Malta>Egy.

    And the TRP in SZ109… i’d be inclined to leave it where it is.

    Is there a topic for proposed set-up changes or not yet?



  • I was thinking we would discuss the Gov’t in Exile rule and any setup changes together because even though they are separate things and setup changes will be voted on separately at some point, the two really do affect one another.

    Maybe what can emerge would be a few combinations of different wordings to the rule along with some different setups (e.g. one version of the rule has Canada get 7IPCs right away, one doesn’t; each of those 2 versions of the rule could be either with the fighter or not).



  • @Vance:

    I was thinking we would discuss the Gov’t in Exile rule and any setup changes together because even though they are separate things and setup changes will be voted on separately at some point, the two really do affect one another.

    Maybe what can emerge would be a few combinations of different wordings to the rule along with some different setups (e.g. one version of the rule has Canada get 7IPCs right away, one doesn’t; each of those 2 versions of the rule could be either with the fighter or not).

    My argument not to give it right away is to give Germany the chance to be daring and rush to Canada with what they have left from Sea-Lion. If Canada gets 7 IPC’s right away, i think that option might be taken away.

    Of course, this goes hand in hand with the idea that Germany takes all the UK cash. Which i think they need.

    Edit: i know that is less realistic since canada sure will have its own money. But then you’d have to conclude that 7 UK IPC’s should always be spent in Canada…



  • Setup changes will only be accepted in Delta regarding this rule if it is an absolute must for the rule to work, the air base in Gibraltar may not be removed under any circumstances.



  • OK, so here is a second version where Germany gets all of UK Europe’s IPCs when London Falls.  On the next turn, the capitol of UK Europe is in Canada and they can collect income but they have no IPCs at the start of the turn so they cannot mobilize any units.

    UK Europe government in exile - version 2 (Germany takes all IPCs).

    If London is captured by an axis power, the capitol of UK Europe moves to Ottawa, Canada.  When an axis power captures London it collects all of the UK Europe IPCs.  On its next turn, and as long as London is occupied, the UK government in exile will collect income for UK controlled territories in North and South America.  The government in exile will mobilize units only in UK industrial complexes located in North and South America.   Because trade with Great Britain ceases while London is occupied by the axis, sea zone 106 ceases to be a convoy raid zone until London is liberated.  At the Collect Income phase of the UK Europe turn following the liberation of London, the government of UK Europe returns to London and income is collected for all UK controlled territories on the Europe map.



  • We won’t touch the Gibraltar airbase because everyone likes it (me too).  The setup changes will be kept to a minimum but we should float ideas to see what people think.



  • Here is a version that is like the draft, expect that z106 remains a convoy zone.

    UK Europe government in exile - version 3 (z106 stays a convoy zone).

    If London is captured by an axis power, the capitol of UK Europe moves to Ottawa, Canada.  When an axis power captures London it collects the UK Europe IPCs minus the sum of the value of all UK controlled territories in North America and South America.  The remaining IPCs continue to be held by UK Europe and may be used on the next turn as usual.  As long as London is occupied, the UK government in exile will collect income for UK controlled territories in North and South America.  The government in exile will mobilize units only in UK industrial complexes located in North and South America.  At the Collect Income phase of the UK Europe turn following the liberation of London, the government of UK Europe returns to London and income is collected for all UK controlled territories on the Europe map.



  • In this version, Germany takes all of UK Europe’s IPCs so the gov’t in exile cannot mobilize anything the next turn, and z106 remains a convoy zone.

    UK Europe government in exile - version 4 (Germany takes all IPCs, z106 stays a convoy zone).

    If London is captured by an axis power, the capitol of UK Europe moves to Ottawa, Canada.  When an axis power captures London it collects all of the UK Europe IPCs.  On its next turn, and as long as London is occupied, the UK government in exile will collect income for UK controlled territories in North and South America.  The government in exile will mobilize units only in UK industrial complexes located in North and South America.  At the Collect Income phase of the UK Europe turn following the liberation of London, the government of UK Europe returns to London and income is collected for all UK controlled territories on the Europe map.



  • Tread lightly when making setup changes, I’m not going to accept major changes to the board to accommodate one rule. If you want multiple setup changes attached to this rule as a final product, it will need to clear another voting process in a future poll.



  • Understood.  The airbase could make a big difference though, so I am suggesting moving the Scotland one to Nova Scotia.  Other ideas are there for folks to chew on.  Of course any setup change would have to be voted for separately.



  • @Vance:

    Understood.  The airbase could make a big difference though, so I am suggesting moving the Scotland one to Nova Scotia.  Other ideas are there for folks to chew on.  Of course any setup change would have to be voted for separately.

    If it is imparitive for the success of the rule, 1or2 setup changes involving 1or2 units shouldn’t be a problem, just be aware of the conciquences involved when adding a unit, and how it will effect other elements in the game (besides your rule).



  • i like the idea of britians capitol moving to canada after they fall. Gives the UK player a 99.99999% chance of having something to do for the whole game in europe.



  • Instead of making seperate rule for each country, why not just use an existing rule with a slight modification? If a countries capital is captured then all the standard stuff happens (losing all IPCs and what not) and after that, they function just like China. At the end of their next turn, whatever country that just lost its capital collects its remaining IPCs and can only moblize infantry from there on out. It leaves it open to making a N.O. that would allow the country to also buy Artillery (If they control “X” territory then they can build them) like China’s N.O. Follows the K.I.S.S. rules I think.



  • @i:

    i like the idea of britians capitol moving to canada after they fall. Gives the UK player a 99.99999% chance of having something to do for the whole game in europe.

    Good point.



  • @Clyde85:

    Instead of making seperate rule for each country, why not just use an existing rule with a slight modification? If a countries capital is captured then all the standard stuff happens (losing all IPCs and what not) and after that, they function just like China. At the end of their next turn, whatever country that just lost its capital collects its remaining IPCs and can only moblize infantry from there on out. It leaves it open to making a N.O. that would allow the country to also buy Artillery (If they control “X” territory then they can build them) like China’s N.O. Follows the K.I.S.S. rules I think.

    This is the kind of thinking Delta+1 needs, modifications to existing rules rather than rewriting the game.



  • @Clyde85:

    Instead of making seperate rule for each country, why not just use an existing rule with a slight modification? If a countries capital is captured then all the standard stuff happens (losing all IPCs and what not) and after that, they function just like China. At the end of their next turn, whatever country that just lost its capital collects its remaining IPCs and can only moblize infantry from there on out. It leaves it open to making a N.O. that would allow the country to also buy Artillery (If they control “X” territory then they can build them) like China’s N.O. Follows the K.I.S.S. rules I think.

    mmm…
    Could work IF you add: Your capitol moves to another Victory City which is under your control.

    No more VC’s and IC’s? Then it’s over.

    Letting the units spawn anywhere like China can would be a bad idea. Especially with Russia in mind. So i’d say: they need at least 1 VC and 1 IC.

    edit: yet personally i’d prefer UK as an exception.



  • @Clyde85:

    Instead of making seperate rule for each country, why not just use an existing rule with a slight modification? If a countries capital is captured then all the standard stuff happens (losing all IPCs and what not) and after that, they function just like China. At the end of their next turn, whatever country that just lost its capital collects its remaining IPCs and can only moblize infantry from there on out. It leaves it open to making a N.O. that would allow the country to also buy Artillery (If they control “X” territory then they can build them) like China’s N.O. Follows the K.I.S.S. rules I think.

    Main issue I see with this and the exile rule in general is can territories still be captured by your ally while your capital is taken?  I think they should be able to.

    I don’t like adding this rule for everyone, making UK a special case is not as much of an issue.

    I’m going to double post a response to the first 2 posts.



  • @special:

    My view on the issue:

    The UK should be licking its wounds, and Canada shouldn’t be a completely helpless victim for Germany.

    So their 7 IPC income should be enough to build some defences or organise a reinforcement ehh… force, but weak enough not to get anything done without US help.
    Germany should collect ALL UK’s money, they earned it (and UK’s income should drop to 7 so that next UK turn Canada can collect their first IPC’s but not build anything yet).
    Only IC’s within Canada can be used. 106 should remain a convoy zone.

    Its good to think in generalities like this at the beginning, get the goals and then we can head towards them.  I have to agree with you here Special forces, the loss of Britain and the need to house the incoming military and fleet requirements is going to be headache enough for ‘Canadas’ first turn.  Also that money should go to Germany because they are being heavily pressed by Stalin.  We could possibly add an inf here or there in Canada to provide them with enough defense that they cannot be defeated by 2 trns.  Not sure.  I could see amending the rule so that ‘Canada’ controls all UK territories in the Americas, so if they have taken Brazil then it remains UK controlled.  Not sure what kind of problems this would cause if any other than you may want Brazil to go to another power.

    We need to address what happens when ‘Canada’ captures a territory.  What about a UK territory?

    POSSIBLE Setup changes to go with Government in Exile

    The airbase in Scotland will be removed from the Alpha 2 setup.
    An airbase will be added to Nova Scotia (i.e. “Gander airbase” for historical accuracy).
    I don’t know if I feel well about this.  I mean Scotland should get a NB and AB because of Scapa flow….the main issue is this leaves that fleet off scotland from the protection of 1 scrambling ftr G1.  Also that airbase is awesome if ferrying ftrs to Russia, although UK could build one.  Perhaps we should just add an AB to novascotia?

    The fighter in Normandy will be removed from the Alpha 2 setup.
    A fighter will be added to Nova Scotia.
    These two moves combined are easing pressure on Germany’s first turn.  I like the UK ftr in normandy, it makes Germany decide between killing that ftr in Normandy or taking that IC on the Med in SFrance G1.  If we reduce the allied presence in Europe Germany may find they can do both.  Why are you thinking Nova scotia needs an airbase?   I’d like to see some more reasoning on this.

    The transport in z109 will be removed from the Alpha 2 setup.
    A second transport will be added to z106.
    I don’t like this change, I like where the trns are because Germany does not have the assets to hit all the trns and all the bb’s, or all the trns and all the dd’s.  They have to pick.

    The airbase in Malta will be removed from the Alpha 2 setup.
    An airbase will be added to Egypt.
    I personally really like the maltese AB, especially for Italy.  That’s not to say Egypt doesn’t need one, but I think we had better look at the pros/cons of an AB in egypt on allied aircraft movement.



  • @JimmyHat:

    Main issue I see with this and the exile rule in general is can territories still be captured by your ally while your capital is taken?  I think they should be able to.

    Hmmm now that’s a good question.  I think that since the Gov’t in Exile rule has UK Europe collecting IPCs only for UK controlled territories in North and South America, then those in Africa, middle east, etc. are up for grabs.  For instance, let’s say London has fallen and Italy takes Egypt and then USA takes Egypt back.  It is not liberated because its capitol (London) is axis controlled.  USA takes control and collects income for Egypt, builds and uses facilities there, etc.  When London is liberated, control of Egypt would then revert to UK Europe based in London.

    I think that’s how it would work. Anyone know whether I am correct about that?



  • @JimmyHat:

    We need to address what happens when ‘Canada’ captures a territory.  What about a UK territory?

    I would say that they can’t collect for it until London is liberated.  The capitol of former UK territories in Africa, middle east, etc. is London.



  • @JimmyHat:

    POSSIBLE Setup changes to go with Government in Exile

    The airbase in Scotland will be removed from the Alpha 2 setup.
    An airbase will be added to Nova Scotia (i.e. “Gander airbase” for historical accuracy).
    I don’t know if I feel well about this.  I mean Scotland should get a NB and AB because of Scapa flow….the main issue is this leaves that fleet off scotland from the protection of 1 scrambling ftr G1.  Also that airbase is awesome if ferrying ftrs to Russia, although UK could build one.  Perhaps we should just add an AB to novascotia?

    I was thinking Nova Scotia needs one because UK in exile can’t afford to build one and they would never get to build a single transport without protection against subs. So they must have the airbase and then they can decide whether to move any fighters and/or destroyers there from across the Atlantic (I assume they usually lose the destroyer and transport in z106 on G1). The airbase also allows UK to fly fighters back to UK before London falls.  I figured if they get an extra airbase in Nova Scotia, they should lose one somewhere and the Gibraltar and Malta ones are too important to lose.  I guess we could just add 1 for canada.
    The fighter in Normandy will be removed from the Alpha 2 setup.
    A fighter will be added to Nova Scotia.
    These two moves combined are easing pressure on Germany’s first turn.  I like the UK ftr in normandy, it makes Germany decide between killing that ftr in Normandy or taking that IC on the Med in SFrance G1.  If we reduce the allied presence in Europe Germany may find they can do both.  Why are you thinking Nova scotia needs an airbase?   I’d like to see some more reasoning on this.

    I agree.  The fighter in West France is important.  I say we drop this idea

    The transport in z109 will be removed from the Alpha 2 setup.
    A second transport will be added to z106.
    I don’t like this change, I like where the trns are because Germany does not have the assets to hit all the trns and all the bb’s, or all the trns and all the dd’s.  They have to pick.

    I agree here too.  Germany should face tough choices G1, and it should be up to the UK player what to do.

    The airbase in Malta will be removed from the Alpha 2 setup.
    An airbase will be added to Egypt.
    I personally really like the maltese AB, especially for Italy.  That’s not to say Egypt doesn’t need one, but I think we had better look at the pros/cons of an AB in egypt on allied aircraft movement.

    This one doesn’t really have much to do with the Gov’t in Exile directly.  I had put this idea here becasue someone suggested it and it would to help people keep count of whether UK was getting any extra naval bases.

    replies in bold


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    London falls to Germany or Italy (don’t laugh, I’ve taken England TWICE with Italy!).  The conquering nation get the whole treasury (hey, it’s all there to be used by England.  You should get penalyzed for losing your capitol!)

    Immediately on the fall of England:

    Quebec gets 1d6 infantry immediately.
    Quebec gets +3 IPC land value (should give them 10 IPC for all of Canada then, and this would allow the complex to be upgraded as well.) 
    Quebec collects for all European territories that England controls.


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