• @Lazarus:

    Even if all this fantasy scenario was true (and it was not) then all it would do was swap the words ‘Berlin’ and ‘Hiroshima’.
    Either way the superior Allied technology triumphs.

    Let’s start by pretending that, in 1940, Goering had increased funding for Germany’s jet program. (The historical Goering had slashed funding for the German jet program in 1940.) Suppose that funding increase had allowed Germany to switch most of its military aircraft production to jet aircraft by '44. (Thereby preventing D-Day and improving its fortunes on its eastern front.) Would the United States still have been able to drop an atomic bomb in late 1945?

    The U.S. did not have, and was not close to developing, ICBM technology during WWII. This meant that any American atomic bomb had to be delivered via a bomber. Bombers which could be shot down by German jets. A daylight atomic bombing raid would have been nearly impossible under the scenario I outlined earlier. A nighttime raid would be more likely to succeed. However, both sides improved their radar technology as the war went on, thereby partially negating the invisibility conferred by the night. An attempt to deliver a nuclear payload to Berlin at night may or may not have succeeded.

    If it had, Germany might have retaliated. You could point out that Germany had not made the massive investment in the development of nuclear technology that the United States had made; and therefore lacked nuclear weapons with which to retaliate. What Germany did have was nerve gas technology that was years ahead of any other nation’s. It also had the ability to deliver this gas to England, either via its jet aircraft or V2 rockets. A series of V2s, each carrying a nerve gas payload, could have caused as many deaths in London as an atom bomb would have caused in Berlin.

    In addition, Germany’s engineers were in the process of developing its  Aggregate Series rockets. After the war, Werner von Braun and his team of German rocket scientists moved to the United States. The German rocket scientists became the core of America’s rocket science effort, and the Saturn V rockets they designed were based on the Aggregate Series rockets Germany had developed during the war. The A4 (a.k.a. the V2) is the most famous of the Aggregate Series rockets. But the Aggregate Series also included the A10, which was a much larger rocket than the A4, and would have had the range to hit the United States. The A10’s projected first flight had been scheduled for 1946. Also under development was the A12, a rocket capable of putting 10 tons of cargo into Low Earth Orbit.

    Had the United States attempted to end the war with nuclear weapons, it would have faced three obstacles. 1) German ability to use jet aircraft to shoot down piston-driven American bombers. 2) The United States’ extremely limited ability to produce nuclear weapons. 3) Germany’s ability to retaliate against nuclear attacks, first against Britain, and in subsequent years against the United States as well. Far from forcing an end to the war, the use of nuclear weapons under the circumstances I’ve described would instead have made the war more destructive, and the civilian death toll much higher. At that point, the war would have become a contest to see which side was willing to pay the higher price for victory. I believe that Germany would have been willing to pay a higher price to avoid hostile foreign occupation than the Allies would have been willing to pay to impose a hostile foreign occupation on Germany. Also, the voters in Western democracies had the option of voting in peace candidates, whereas the voters in Germany did not.


  • Whatever scenario I come up with you change the  conditions  to give Germany the advantage.
    In other words you are going to rig every possible outcome to make sure your ‘side’ wins.

    The only chance Germany had would have been if she developed a nuclear powered horse for her infantry Divisions.


  • @Lazarus:

    Whatever scenario I come up with you change the  conditions  to give Germany the advantage.
    In other words you are going to rig every possible outcome to make sure your ‘side’ wins.

    The only chance Germany had would have been if she developed a nuclear powered horse for her infantry Divisions.

    Your post is inaccurate. I was the one who had initially formulated a scenario. I wrote:


    I do not think that the Me 262 alone would necessarily have prevented Soviet conquest of Germany. But if one other major factor could have been added to the mix–such as E-Series tanks, or widespread deployment of the assault rifle–the combination of that new land weapon and Germany’s jet power would probably have been enough to push the Soviets back.

    Had Germany ultimately succeeded in conquering the Soviet Union, it would have . . .


    You responded to that scenario by claiming that the U.S. would have won the war anyway through the use of nuclear weapons. I responded by pointing out that this was not necessarily the case. I did not “change the conditions of the scenario” as you have falsely claimed. Nor is there any truth to your assertion that I would “rig every possible outcome to make sure [my] ‘side’ wins.” This is not the first, second, or fifth time you have misrepresented something I’ve written. You’ve done this often enough I must assume you’ve adopted misrepresentation as a deliberate strategy. What do you hope to gain by your use of that strategy?


  • What do I hope to gain?
    Possibly inject a bit of reality into your dreams?

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Don’t ruin it Laz, I’m enjoying the mental picture.


  • @Gargantua:

    Don’t ruin it Laz, I’m enjoying the mental picture.

    Thanks for helping move this discussion back to one of military history or alternative history. (As opposed to a petty personal squabble.) I think a lot more people came here for the former than the latter!

    Is there some aspect of the E-Series program or the other subjects which have come up in this thread you’d like me to discuss in more detail?

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    How would the Allies have countered?  I mean… there is always a counter…


  • @Gargantua:

    How would the Allies have countered?  I mean… there is always a counter…

    A good question.

    If Germany had begun mass producing E-Series tanks in 1944, there would have been no need for an Allied counter. By that point, Germany’s military situation was bad enough that large numbers of E-Series tanks, alone, would not have been able to salvage it. But the E-Series tanks might have slowed the pace of the Allied invasion, and there are several things the Allies could have done to have sped that process back up.

    1. Go after Germany’s fuel supply even more strongly than they did. In the real war, German tanks were often lost to lack of fuel, as opposed to the action of enemy tanks. One of the intended advantages of the E-Series program was the massive increase in German tank production it would have allowed. One of the effects of all those extra tanks would be to worsen Germany’s fuel situation.

    If fuel was going to be a bad problem for Germany anyway, it would have been logical for the Allies to make it even worse. During the months immediately before and after D-Day, the Western democracies suspended extermination bombings targeted against German cities in order to focus Anglo-American air power against German targets in France. After the Allied invasion of France was well underway, Britain and France resumed their policy of destroying German cities.

    If the E-Series tanks had been considered a major problem, Britain and the U.S. could have abandoned their policy of anti-civilian bombings in favor of using that air power even more strongly against German oil refineries, as well as the trains and trucks necessary to transport fuel to Germany’s tanks. This is not to say the Allies weren’t aggressive against such targets in the historical war, because they clearly were. But they could have been even more aggressive by eschewing anti-civilian bombing raids.

    1. Destroy Germany’s tanks from the air. The P-47 Thunderbolt and Il Shturmovik were excellent in the ground attack role. The Western Allies had outright air supremacy against the Luftwaffe, and the Red Air Force did increasingly well against the Luftwaffe as the war went on. Germany tried to have tanks move only at night, and conceal themselves during the day. But that strategy was only partially effective at preventing destruction from the air.

    2. The Allies could have moved forward with their own more advanced tank designs. Small numbers of Pershing tanks began appearing in Europe toward the end of the war, even despite internal resistance to the idea of a heavier tank. The British Centurion tank was a good design for a heavier tank. Also, my opinion of the Soviets’ T44/T-54 has improved after having done more research. Had Germany begun producing large numbers of E-50s and E-75s, it would have caused the Allies to (if possible) accelerate the deployment of their own tanks in the 50 ton range.

    A 1944 introduction of the E-Series tanks would not have been enough to stem the tide of the Soviet advance, or of the Anglo-American invasion of Italy. They probably would not have been enough to throw the Normandy invasion back into the sea. But even if the E-Series tanks had caused the D-Day invasion to fail, the Allies would continue to have gradually gained ground at Germany’s expense, while killing or capturing German soldiers of military age at a much faster pace than it could replace them.

    But if Germany had begun producing large numbers of E-Series tanks in 1942, they would have exerted significantly more influence on the course of the war than a 1944 release date would have implied.

    In 1940, Germany’s strategic position was bleak. The concern was that over the long run, Germany would be unable to match the military aircraft production of Britain + the American aircraft being sent to Britain. The invasion of the Soviet Union was an attempt to change that strategic equation in Germany’s favor by providing it with the manpower, industrial capacity, and raw materials necessary to compete with Anglo-American air production. However, the Soviet Union’s prewar population was 169 million, as compared to 69 million for Germany. The gains Germany achieved in 1941 were important, but not enough in themselves to achieve victory over the Soviets.

    The E-Series, if deployed in 1942, would have given Germany three things. 1) A manyfold increase in the number of tanks it could build. 2) Tanks which were much more mechanically reliable and less likely to break down. 3) Tanks which were qualitatively superior to anything the Soviets had. These three factors would probably have been enough to allow Germany to achieve large gains in 1942. These gains would have been important for three reasons: 1) The Soviet soldiers captured and army groups destroyed, 2) the increase in Germany’s war-making potential brought about by the Caucasus oil fields and other natural resources captured, and 3) Reduction in the Soviet Union’s population and industrial base.

    It’s possible that, with the E-Series tanks, Germany would have gained half as much land in the summer of '42 as it had in the summer of '41. (In the historical war, the Soviet Union experienced significant local defeats in the Caucasus area in the summer of '42, but lost only a small fraction of the land it had lost in '41.) Once the Caucasus oilfields were in German hands, oil would no longer have been a problem for Germany. (And might have become a problem for the Soviet Union.)

    After a summer offensive such as this, one of two outcomes would have been possible. 1) Germany and the Soviet Union might have signed a peace treaty. 2) The two sides might have decided to continue fighting until one had been fully destroyed.

    Stalin’s rationale for choosing the first option would have been because of his ongoing diplomatic policy. He regarded Germany and the Western democracies as equally enemies, and wanted to see the two sides kill as many of each other’s soldiers and civilians as possible in a war which did not involve the Soviet Union. A peace treaty would have let him sit on the sidelines, instead of bleeding away the Red Army’s strength to do something (destroy the German Army) that he wanted the Western democracies to do instead. Hitler’s rationale for agreeing to peace would have been to allow himself to focus on getting out of the war against the Western democracies, without also being further subjected to the meat grinder of an anti-Soviet campaign. The peace treaty with the Soviets would allow him to use his Caucasus force to invade Persia, sweep south and east, and ultimately unite with Rommel in Libya. Hitler could continue this land war until the British had also lost India and sub-Saharan Africa. While the loss of so much of their empire may or may not have been enough to convince the British to agree to peace, it might have helped get Churchill out of office. (Which would definitely have been a step toward a peace treaty.) Also, Britain’s ability to wage war would have been significantly weakened by the loss of the bulk of its empire.

    If the war between Germany and the Soviet Union had continued into 1943, then under the E-Series scenario it’s likely that Germany would have continued gaining Soviet territory. It is very unlikely that Germany would have suffered a Stalingrad-like defeat if it had had E-Series tanks, primarily because the overall military situation would have been considerably more favorable. The Soviet Union would have had a much greater ability to recruit and replace troops than Germany. But at least during '43, that strategic advantage would have been balanced out by a series of German tactical victories, and one-sided exchange ratios as Germany used its tanks to encircle and capture large groups of Soviet soldiers.

    On the other hand, the British and American armies would have become an increasingly large problem for Germany. This would be even more true in 1944 than 1943. Therefore, Germany would need to capture Moscow and other key Soviet cities in '43 or early '44, before the weight of the Anglo-American armies could be fully brought to bear. If a Normandy-style invasion was successful–as it very well could be because of American air power–and if Germany was still engaged in a land war against a powerful Red Army, it could spell defeat for Germany. To avoid this fate, Germany would have to conquer as much Soviet territory as possible, as quickly as possible, in '42 and '43. Then, it would have made sense for Hitler to have sought a peace treaty with the Soviets at the end of '43, contenting himself with whatever Soviet land Germany had been able to conquer during the three year war between the two nations. That peace treaty would free up the bulk of German military strength for use against whichever British and American forces had been sent to destroy the Reich.

    These actions would secure Germany against the short-to-intermediate term threats of a land invasion from any direction. Germany would also have the industrial capacity necessary to stay within shouting distance of Anglo-American aircraft production, and would have the oil necessary to get its planes into the air. The pace of the war would then slow down (except for fighting in Africa and the Middle East). This slowdown in combat would allow Germany to take benefit from the technological edge it had started to build late in WWII. Late in the war, Germany had the world’s best jets, rockets, air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles, and best poison gas. (The last being a possible tool with which to retaliate against any nuclear bombs dropped on Germany.) In a struggle like this, Hitler would probably have continued to try to get the Western democracies to agree to cease fighting, while keeping the borders as they were. What would have happened if (when?) the Western democratic leaders ignored or refused these offers for peace, is not fully clear.


  • Just to add to this thread, here is a YouTube video about the E-Series tanks.


  • would it not be better keeping producing Panzer III and IV and keep on developing new Support Tanks etc like Hummel, Nashorn, Wirbelwind, kugelblitz etc.?…It would have been far better to satisfy the needs of the troops instead of longing for bigger tanks.
    The Panzer IV was maybe not equal to all the counterparts of the allied tanks but further development of panzer III and IV´s and increasing production of it would be better in the long run!..E series might have been better and easier in production but it is not guaranteed that it would satisfy the need!
    I dare even to say that a 5cm gun for panzer III series and a 7,5-cm-KwK 40 L/43 for the Panzer IV´s would have made a big diffrence!
    In the end the Panzer IV was the backbone of all Panzerdivisions to the end of the war…

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