Variable's and Tall Paul's Naval Game Ideas

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    I haven’t had time to read in detail through this long discussion thread, so here are just a couple of thoughts which may have already been covered elsewhere.

    @Variable:

    If you want a true naval engagement where anything can happen, I would think Midway. Trouble with Midway is, game-wise it’s a bit unbalanced.

    Midway was indeed very unbalanced in terms of naval force ratios (I think Yamamoto had something like ten times as many ships as Fletcher and Spruance)…but note that it’s the weaker side which ended up winning the battle.  In terms of the key units, the big fleet carriers, the Japanese only had a four-to-three advantage.  The fighting soon reduced this to a zero-to-two ratio, at which points the Japanese fleet withdrew.

    Another idea is that any Midway game has to have some sort of concealed-movement and reconnaissance mechanism.  This was a crucial aspect of the engagement – something which the movie Midway from the mid-70s conveyed very well.  Recommended viewing (despite some aspects that detract from the film) as a source of inspiration for anyone designing a Midway game.

  • '14

    @CWO:

    I haven’t had time to read in detail through this long discussion thread, so here are just a couple of thoughts which may have already been covered elsewhere.

    @Variable:

    If you want a true naval engagement where anything can happen, I would think Midway. Trouble with Midway is, game-wise it’s a bit unbalanced.

    Midway was indeed very unbalanced in terms of naval force ratios (I think Yamamoto had something like ten times as many ships as Fletcher and Spruance)…but note that it’s the weaker side which ended up winning the battle.  In terms of the key units, the big fleet carriers, the Japanese only had a four-to-three advantage.  The fighting soon reduced this to a zero-to-two ratio, at which points the Japanese fleet withdrew.

    Another idea is that any Midway game has to have some sort of concealed-movement and reconnaissance mechanism.  This was a crucial aspect of the engagement – something which the movie Midway from the mid-70s conveyed very well.  Recommended viewing (despite some aspects that detract from the film) as a source of inspiration for anyone designing a Midway game.

    I agree. If we do a midway game you would have to move your ships with the fleet pieces, as in AAP game. Then when they have been identified place the units on the board.

  • 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    One idea for concealed movement and reconnaissance would be to use a mechanism similar to the “dummy task force” one in the 1992 3W game “Sink the Bismarck!” (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/7140/sink-the-bismarck).  As I recall, the German player has at his disposal a number of tokens which are placed at several separate locations on the map and which are moved on each turn.  One of these (known to the German player but not to the opponent) represents the real Bismarck; the others are fake units.  The British player has to send out reconnaissance units to survey these German tokens, and it’s only at the moment of contact with a given unit that the British player will be able to see whether that particular token is a dummy (at which point it’s removed from play) or the actual Bismarck.  In a Midway game, these tokens would stand for entire task forces (whose component ships would be kept off the board until they were located by the enemy) plus several fake ones.

  • Customizer

    CWO,

    EXPANDED A&A-The Naval Series
    Coral Sea & The Solomons Campaign

    Discussion Topic-Recon and the Fog of War

    Thanks for your contribution and WELCOME to the discussion, CWO.

    Chief, (I presume that’s what the CWO stands for)

    The designation of unknown task forces with a representative “token” is along the lines of what I was considerring.  It would give our PBY’s their reason to be, as well as the AV(?) Seaplane Tenders by serving as mobile bases for them, which is what they were designed for.  (I’m still thinking about our Solomons Campaign game.)

    I’m sure many people have much more gaming experience with this aspect than me, but although I really like the Task Force Designator idea, I don’t think I’m a fan of the “dummy” contacts for NO reason.  I believe we will have enough to do in this game without the “dummys”.

    Topic Headings

    @CWO:

    Since this will no doubt be a LONG discussion thread, as we have so many things to discuss, I’ve gone to the effort of trying to “label” everything so that we can go back and refer to them easier.  I’m sure that we will all skip around in our discussions quite frequently.  Sometimes it’s hard to stay on the current topic of discussion, and we don’t want to discourage discussion on ANYTHING that applies to the games we are planning to produce.

    Naval Games-Pacific

    Yes, I agree completely that Midway would be an important, almost purely Naval-type game(in the Pacific) like we are talking about.

    One would also have to think of Leyte Gulf, Surigao Straight, and all of the Phillippine actions as well.

    I also think that a Coral Sea action, that Variable likes so much, would also be another almost purely Naval-type action, albeit a little smaller in scope than Midway.

    What do YA’LL think about the idea of having two games, a CORAL SEA naval action, and the entire SOLOMONS CAMPAIGN covered on one map???

    Remember, we’re talking about the map being the same size as a 1940-global map in size and area.

    Do you think that this would minimise the Coral Sea action in ANY way???

    Don’t you think the Solomons Campaign would have plenty of room to be ALL-INCLUSIVE of everything covered in “Operation Cartwheel” as previously described.

    I think we’d have plenty of space to do BOTH, and what a BONUS that would be to the players!

    Tigerman is the experienced mapmaker here.  TIGERMAN, what is your opinion of the plausibility of having BOTH the CORAL SEA action, and the SOLOMONS CAMPAIGN games on a single 1940-global size map?

    I look forward to his experienced opinion and at the same time encourage everyone else to express their views, also.

    Like I Say,……What Do YA’LL Think???

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    @Tall:

    I’m sure many people have much more gaming experience with this aspect than me, but although I really like the Task Force Designator idea, I don’t think I’m a fan of the “dummy” contacts for NO reason.  I believe we will have enough to do in this game without the “dummys”.

    The dummy markers don’t serve as a pointless make-work exercise.  Their purpose is to offer a solution to the problem of how one incorporates concealed movement into a game without having to use duplicate boards and a neutral umpire (in other words, they allow information to be openly displayed in a two-person game, while still concealing a key factor from the other side). Their aim isn’t to get the other player to chase ghosts, their aim is to make the real task force difficult to identify while keeping it findable if the opponent searches in the right place. The trick, in effect, is that they make it possible for the information about the composition of a real tak force to be kept separate from the information about its location.  The ship sculpts kept in a group off the board give the composition of the real task force, but not its position.  The markers on the board give the possible locations of the task force, but not its composition (because some of the markers are dummies).  Reconnaissance is the activity which allows the location and composition information to be connected (once the searcher finds the right marker).  The presence of dummy markers simply reflects the fact that the searcher at first doesn’t know exactly where the enemy is located, and that a referee isn’t being used to keep track of who has made contact with whom.

  • Customizer

    Chief,

    EXPANDED A&A-The Naval Series
    Coral Sea & The Solomons Campaign

    Discussion Topic–-“Dummy” Task Force markers

    Chief,

    Thank you for your thorough explanation of the “dummy” TF markers.  I appreciate it.
    My only concern here would be if this would take too much time?  What is your opinion here, Chief?  Remember,…In the Solomons Campaign game we are planning a huge game on a huge map with LOTS and LOTS of naval action, both combat and support.  If you think it wouldn’t be too time consuming I think it certainly deserves more attention.  I think more discussion is called for on this topic.

    Thanks for your bringing up something that could very well determine how our recon is handled.

    Do you think it would be overly-simplistic to just place a TF marker on the board for all active TFs?  The enemy not knowing the composition of it unless they “reconned” it with appropriate units?(Subs, Ships, Aircraft, Coast Watchers(?)  This would certainly lessen the “where is it” aspect of RECON, but would take little time, and also lead to the implementation of “Decoy”, “Ghost”, “Ambush”, and "Multi-TF Groups of TFs.  My ideas here are not completely fleshed out, but I would compare it to the TF markers/recon ideas of the computer game “PACIFIC WAR by Gary Grigsby” of several years ago.  Is anyone here familiar with that game?  If I remember correctly a version of it was later released as “Uncommon Valor, Campaign for the South Pacfic”.  My memory is a bit fuzzy on the title but I think that’s correct.

    Like I Say,…What Do YA’LL think?
                                                                                               “Tall Paul”

  • 2021 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16 '15 '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    @Tall:

    EXPANDED A&A-The Naval Series
    Coral Sea & The Solomons Campaign

    Discussion Topic–-“Dummy” Task Force markers

    Chief,

    Thank you for your thorough explanation of the “dummy” TF markers.  I appreciate it.
    My only concern here would be if this would take too much time?  What is your opinion here, Chief?  Remember,…In the Solomons Campaign game we are planning a huge game on a huge map with LOTS and LOTS of naval action, both combat and support.  If you think it wouldn’t be too time consuming I think it certainly deserves more attention.  I think more discussion is called for on this topic.

    For a Midway game, a two-way dummy task force system (allowing the Japanese to search for the Americans and vice-versa) would definitely be worth it.  Yamamoto had three separate task forces devoted to the Midway operation, while the American carriers were disposed in two groups (Hornet and Enterprise in one, Yorktown in the other). The Americans knew the Japanese ships were somewhere, but had to find them.  The Japanese didn’t know the Americans were there, but were scouting anyway.  Reproducing the who-would-find-whom-first element would be very important to a Midway game.

    For a scenario like the Solomons Campaign, the full dummy task force model might be overkill.  Some kind of simplified version of it, or some other mechanism entirely, might be more suitable.  For the Coral Sea, maybe something in between the two other situations (more detailed searching than for the Solomons, less than for Midway) would be the right level to aim for.  I guess it all depends on what you’re aiming for in each game, and how they will work overall.

  • Customizer

    Chief,

    EXPANDED A&A–-Naval Series
    Coral Sea & The Solomons Campaign

    Discussion Topic–Recon Methods

    @CWO:

    For a scenario like the Solomons Campaign, the full dummy task force model might be overkill.  Some kind of simplified version of it, or some other mechanism entirely, might be more suitable.  For the Coral Sea, maybe something in between the two other situations (more detailed searching than for the Solomons, less than for Midway) would be the right level to aim for.

    I think you’re exactly right, as far as the case of the Coral Sea / Solomons Campaign game which we’re currently working on.

    We still need a good bit more discussion about recon methods, though.

    I still can’t wait to hear from Tigerman, our “Map Guy”, on the feasability of having TWO complete and seperate games, THE BATTLE OF THE CORAL SEA,…and THE SOLOMONS CAMPAIGN on the one huge map.

    It will be so cool and FUN once we get it finished.

    As I Say,……What Do YA’LL Think???
                                                                                                “Tall Paul”


  • Have any of you seen or have the original Midway game by Avalon Hill from the late 1960s?  That had a very good search system.  No need to reinvent the wheel for that.  I will dig out my copy and summarize the way search was used.  The same system could be used for the Coral Sea, the Solomons, and any Pacific naval game.

    However, you need to keep in mind that, except for a period from 1 June 1942 to mid-October 1942, the US was reading the Japanese naval codes, and one problem the US had was to make sure that a Recon plane spotted the Japanese forces so as not to give any our code-breaking.  You would need to factor that into the game.  For help with that, you might want to check the book, Ultra in the Pacific, by John Winton, where he covers the operation use of Magic intel.  I helped John research that book and we went through an incredible amount of paper concerning the intercepts and communication to the fleet in the daily intel summaries.  I have a copies of some of the more interesting intercepts.  They make for very fascinating reading.

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    @Tall:

    I still can’t wait to hear from Tigerman, our “Map Guy”, on the feasability of having TWO complete and seperate games, THE BATTLE OF THE CORAL SEA,…and THE SOLOMONS CAMPAIGN on the one huge map.

    Here’s a point you might want to consider. The Solomons Campaign, if I recall correctly, lasted about six months, while the Coral Sea operation lasted just a few days.  This means that the two games have to operate on different time scales.  A scale appropriate to the Solomons Campaign (say, one game turn = about two weeks) would be much too fast for the Coral Sea operation (since the battle only took a fraction of a game move in time).  Likewise, a scale appropriate for the Coral Sea (say, one game turn = a few hours) would be much too slow for the Solomons Campaign (the Solomons campaign would take weeks or months of real time to play at that rate).  So combining the two games would produce a time-scale incompatibility.

    A related problem has to do with the geographic scale.  A combined-game map covering both the area of the Battle of the Coral Sea and the Solomons Campaign would (at a very rough and quick estimate) have to be about twice the size (or half the scale) as separate maps for the two engagements done as separate games. Except for the few days during which the Coral Sea action took place, the space allocated to the Coral Sea in a combined map would serve little purpose during the six months of the Solomons Campaign, and so would be a waste of space.  Similarly, what was going on in the Solomons during the few days that the Coral Sea operation lasted would be of little importance to the Coral Sea battle, so expanding the map to include the Solomons might not be worth it either.

  • Customizer

    Chief and the “Gang”,

    EXPANDED A&A–-The Naval Series
    Coral Sea & The Solomons Campaign

    Discussion Topic-Dual games on a Single Map

    Chief,

    I believe you may have misunderstood what I was proposing.  The possibility of having two completely separate games to be played on the same map at differrent times.

    The points you make concerning the “time-scale” or the “combining” of the two games, “The Coral Sea Battle” and “The Solomons Campaign” therefore would have no bearing.

    However, you do bring up a VERY IMPORTANT point about the map scale might not be capable of enough naval sea zones to make the Coral Sea Battle a possibility.  This is a possibility.

    I remember that you said you hadn’t yet taken the time to read our previous posts,…

    @CWO:

    I haven’t had time to read in detail through this long discussion thread, so here are just a couple of thoughts which may have already been covered elsewhere.

    One of the major EXPANSIONS that we are calling for in this game series(?) was to have each game played on a campaign-oriented oriented map EXPANDED to the size of a 1940-global map.

    @Tall:

    I was just going over everything in my mind and it just sort of hit me.  All of the units that we are EXPANDING the game with,…all of the new or EXPANDED capabilities that will be available,…with the game to be played on a campaign-oriented map EXPANDED to the size of a 1940-global map.

    As I said, you might be correct about there not being enough sea zones, even in our much expanded map, but I’m not so sure about that.  That is the main reason I’m really looking forward to having our “Map Master”, Tigerman, look at the possility of having the two, completely SEPARATE games being played on the one very ENLARGED map.
                                        –--------------------------

    We might also be able to have another action, “The Battle of the Bismark Sea” thrown into the game mix as a separate scenario or somehow.  It should easily fit onto the map and would give a good reason for me to modify the B-25’s that are in the pipeline from HBG into the “Commerce Destroyers” of Gen. Kenneys’ 5th AF fame.  Wow, just think of an A&A B-25 with up to 14 forward-firing 50 cal. machine guns,…not to mention their “skip-bombing” capability.  I can’t wait.

    Well, I hope I’ve explained my ideas a little better now.  And Please, don’t think I’m inconsiderate of others’ opinions as that would be completely incorrect.  I feel that we MUST consider everyones’ ideas and opinions in order to make this the best game we can.  Hopefully, with everyones help, we can.

    Like I Say,…What Do YA’LL Think???
                                                                                      “Tall Paul”

  • '14

    @CWO:

    @Tall:

    I still can’t wait to hear from Tigerman, our “Map Guy”, on the feasability of having TWO complete and seperate games, THE BATTLE OF THE CORAL SEA,…and THE SOLOMONS CAMPAIGN on the one huge map.

    Here’s a point you might want to consider. The Solomons Campaign, if I recall correctly, lasted about six months, while the Coral Sea operation lasted just a few days.  This means that the two games have to operate on different time scales.  A scale appropriate to the Solomons Campaign (say, one game turn = about two weeks) would be much too fast for the Coral Sea operation (since the battle only took a fraction of a game move in time).  Likewise, a scale appropriate for the Coral Sea (say, one game turn = a few hours) would be much too slow for the Solomons Campaign (the Solomons campaign would take weeks or months of real time to play at that rate).  So combining the two games would produce a time-scale incompatibility.

    A related problem has to do with the geographic scale.  A combined-game map covering both the area of the Battle of the Coral Sea and the Solomons Campaign would (at a very rough and quick estimate) have to be about twice the size (or half the scale) as separate maps for the two engagements done as separate games. Except for the few days during which the Coral Sea action took place, the space allocated to the Coral Sea in a combined map would serve little purpose during the six months of the Solomons Campaign, and so would be a waste of space.  Similarly, what was going on in the Solomons during the few days that the Coral Sea operation lasted would be of little importance to the Coral Sea battle, so expanding the map to include the Solomons might not be worth it either.

    I think a map could be made where both scenarios could be played out. I’ll look into iot and get back to ya in next few days. I’m trying to finish up my Okinawa game. Might be able to look at this next week.

  • Customizer

    Tigerman and the “Gang”,

    EXPANDED A&A–-The Naval Series
    Coral Sea and The Solomons Campaign

    Topic of Discussion–One Map for Two Separate Games

    Fantastic!!!  I feared you might be “knee-deep” in your current map/game and unable to help with this project for awhile.  I’m glad you’ll be able to investigate the Solomons map before too long.  Good Luck with the “Iceberg”.  I’m looking forward to it as well.  Thanks in advance.

    If you find it isn’t a feasible idea(2 games, 1 map) I feel we should proceed with you concertrating on a Solomons Campaign game.  With a well done expanded map and all of the expansions in gaming pieces and operations available I think the Solomons Campaign would be an excellent arena to spotlight ALL of them.

    Like I Say,…What Do Ya’ll Think???
                                                                                        “Tall Paul”

  • '14

    The solomons would be great to expand on. I looked earlier and depending on the scale I think you can get what you are looking for in a Global 40 size map. Maybe a 60x48 inch map would be good also. I have a room set up and play on a 4’x8’ table. I’ll continue to look at the maps and come up with something.

  • Customizer

    Tigerman,

    I took my 1940-global map to a professional Sign Shop and had them enlarge it 150% to 48" x 108"(4’ x 9’).  It wasn’t the least bit cheap, but I believe it was worth every penny.  It’s soooo much easier to see everything now, and makes gameplay much more enjoyable because you simply have the room to touch the units and move them around without an unholy mixing of everything.

    I hope that you might reconsider the map dimensions to include them at 48" x 108" or a proportionate fraction of that,…say 36" x 79".  I know the “Coach” at HBG has offerred to print maps at differrent sizes before.

    I feel that if you were to include the “Full Size” Global Proportion that the increase in map area would be very USEFULL in a Solomons Campaign map(as well as others in this series).  We wouldn’t just gain a great deal of very important Sea Zones,…but also other islands and/or off-board locations like Truk, Esprito Santo, Nomea(?), locations along the Eastern New Guinea coast, and Port Moresby and /Australia.

    I implore you to please keep this “full size global proportion(FSGP)” in your consideration.  Also, I think that many, many, players would also think this a great innovation in their gaming experience,…A smaller map in SCOPE of the Solomon Campaign EXPANDED to a larger size.

    I think almost everyone likes the impressive size of the 1940-global maps and would be interested in this one PRIMARILY because of all the EXPANSIONS in it.(more units, more capabilities, and a global-size map).

    You are the “Map Master” of this project and I yield to your obvious knowledge and experience.  But I will continue with my ideas and opinions if I think them sound and important until you convince me otherwise.

    We’ll talk further when you get some more time, friend.

    Like I Say,…What Do YA’LL Think???
                                                                                              “Tall Paul”


  • @Tall:

    Tigerman,

    I took my 1940-global map to a professional Sign Shop and had them enlarge it 150% to 48" x 108"(4’ x 9’).  It wasn’t the least bit cheap, but I believe it was worth every penny.  It’s soooo much easier to see everything now, and makes gameplay much more enjoyable because you simply have the room to touch the units and move them around without an unholy mixing of everything.

    I hope that you might reconsider the map dimensions to include them at 48" x 108" or a proportionate fraction of that,…say 36" x 79".  I know the “Coach” at HBG has offerred to print maps at differrent sizes before.

    I feel that if you were to include the “Full Size” Global Proportion that the increase in map area would be very USEFULL in a Solomons Campaign map(as well as others in this series).  We wouldn’t just gain a great deal of very important Sea Zones,…but also other islands and/or off-board locations like Truk, Esprito Santo, Nomea(?), locations along the Eastern New Guinea coast, and Port Moresby and /Australia.

    I implore you to please keep this “full size global proportion(FSGP)” in your consideration.  Also, I think that many, many, players would also think this a great innovation in their gaming experience,…A smaller map in SCOPE of the Solomon Campaign EXPANDED to a larger size.

    I think almost everyone likes the impressive size of the 1940-global maps and would be interested in this one PRIMARILY because of all the EXPANSIONS in it.(more units, more capabilities, and a global-size map).

    You are the “Map Master” of this project and I yield to your obvious knowledge and experience.  But I will continue with my ideas and opinions if I think them sound and important until you convince me otherwise.

    We’ll talk further when you get some more time, friend.

    Like I Say,…What Do YA’LL Think???
                                                                                              “Tall Paul”

    If your map is much larger than the current size of the Europe 1940 or Pacific 1940,
    you are going to have a hard time putting it on a standard size dining room table.  Tall Paul, you need to back of demanding the largest possible map.  I cannot put the combined boards for the current Europe and Pacific games on my dining room table and still have room for anything else.  I will be getting CoachofMany’s large maps for use in a classroom setting where I can put two large tables together, but that is in a CLASSROOM, not my dining room.  If you do a map, all of you need to think about the fact that the average player is going to play on a table probably about 60 X 30.  My dining room table, with one expander in it is 72 X 30.  If the game map does not fit on that, it is not going to sell.  I have the same problem with the two Attack maps and to a lesser degree with the Eagle Games War: Age of Imperialism map.

    Second, the larger the map, the more expensive it is to print it.  I am getting the large 1939 maps from Coachofmany for the historical games class that I work with, but the organization that I work with is paying for them.  There is no way that I can justify buying a 48 X 96 map for my own use.  Use a large-scale map for the Coral Sea Game, and then a different scale map for the Solomon Islands game.  Guys may love a large map, until it is time to pay for it.  The Coral Sea Game would be a tactical-level naval game with no land combat, the Solomons Campaign is an operational-level game that has both sea and land combat.  The two levels are not compatible on the same scale map.

  • Sponsor '17 TripleA '11 '10

    MAP SIZE & CONTENT

    Let me speak a moment about the map. When Tigerman or myself make a map, they can be scaled to any size the end user wants. The only important dimension is the RATIO. So, for instance, if we make the map to be the same size as Anniversary, most everyone can play that and have some charts/boxes/etc on the table with it. For the few of us blessed with a dedicated epic gaming area, you simply get the map printed in a larger size with the same ratio, just like Paul did with his G40 map. But with a .pdf file, you don’t have to buy the first map and have it blown up. You still pay for just one map to be printed.

    On to the content. To progress forward on the project, let’s go with the Solomon’s Campaign. If the setup is done right, this should effectively cover the Coral Sea engagement simply because there will be an element of naval conflict required for success. That being said, we should include all the important islands and bases used in the campaign, keeping in mind each sea zone must be large enough at ANNIVERSARY scale (that map size eludes me at the moment) to work for all the different ships we are looking at having. We could enforce a stacking limit, but this is not KISS… I will also defer to Tigerman’s expertise as my last map needed to be enlarged much more than I had originally anticipated.

    A lot of people think that land area’s in G40 are not big enough and we’re only talking about less than 10 types of units. With this, you guys want 14+ different types per territory / sea zone  😮 That could end up looking a lot like Guadalcanal. Just something to consider.

  • Sponsor '17 TripleA '11 '10

    @timerover51:

    Have any of you seen or have the original Midway game by Avalon Hill from the late 1960s?  That had a very good search system.  No need to reinvent the wheel for that.  I will dig out my copy and summarize the way search was used.  The same system could be used for the Coral Sea, the Solomons, and any Pacific naval game.

    SEARCH / RECON RULES:

    Yep, I’ve got that one and was considering using it for a starting point. Another idea for recon I was throwing around, again to keep everything simple, is this:

    Keep all the pieces on the board. Any enemy ship / task force / fleet must be “spotted” (overflown) by spotter aircraft before they can be engaged or suffer a severe first round penalty, for example a -1 to all attack strengths for the first round of combat. To mark “spotted” forces, place a control marker in the sea zone. We could maybe use this concept for jungle warfare as well.

  • Customizer

    Timerover and the Gang,

    Expanded A&A–-The Naval Series
    Coral Sea & The Solomons Campaign

    Discussion Topic-Map Scale and PROPORTION

    1. Timerover,  First off I haven’t DEMANDED anything, EVER!  I have simply been putting forth my opinion(which I encourage EVERYONE to do).

    2. Also, as I stated plainly, that Tigerman, not I, is the “MAP MASTER” for this game.
    And I stated emphatically that I YEILDED to his knowledge and experience in this matter.

    @Tall:

    Tigerman,

    You are the “Map Master” of this project and I yield to your obvious knowledge and experience.  But I will continue with my ideas and opinions if I think them sound and important until you convince me otherwise.

    3. If you, or anyone for that matter, took their map OF WHATEVER SIZE and had it mounted on 1/4" "Gater-Board or anything else including Poster-Board the map would be supported even if it hung over the outsides of the table a little.  I’m not suggesting you make your map oversize as I think everyone should have the size of map that they personally prefer and/or can afford as far as MONEY and SPACE concerns.

    4. I AM thinking of the AVERAGE player when I’m suggesting that we keep our map in the same PROPORTION of the 1940-Global maps,…whether they are enlarged or not.

    If I remember correctly, the ORIGINAL size of both the Europe and Pacific 1940(otherwise known as Global) was 36" x 80".  I may be off a little here, but that’s close.

    If we keep our new map in the same PROPORTION as the original Global map,…we could have maps of:

    24" x 60"    36" x 80"    48" x 108"    etc., etc., etc.

    @Tall:

    I hope that you might reconsider the map dimensions to include them at 48" x 108" or a proportionate fraction of that,…say 36" x 79".  I know the “Coach” at HBG has offerred to print maps at differrent sizes before.

    I feel that if you were to include the “Full Size” Global Proportion that the increase in map area would be very USEFULL in a Solomons Campaign map(as well as others in this series).  We wouldn’t just gain a great deal of very important Sea Zones,…but also other islands and/or off-board locations like Truk, Esprito Santo, Nomea(?), locations along the Eastern New Guinea coast, and Port Moresby and /Australia.

    I implore you to please keep this “full size global proportion(FSGP)” in your consideration.  Also, I think that many, many, players would also think this a great innovation in their gaming experience,…A smaller map in SCOPE of the Solomon Campaign EXPANDED to a larger size.

    I’m guessing you didn’t read about the full sized global proportion(FSGP) or any of the above enough to let the idea sink into your mind.  Variable also made a post concerning this same idea using the word “RATIO”.  It’s a good post about this same subject but I don’t feel like making a “quote” from it simply because my screen is dancing like a “wild mambo” at the moment and it would seem too difficult to do.  Man this bouncing is frustrating!

    5. It has been spoken of several times in this thread by myself and others that the “Coach”, of HBG fame, has several times offerred, even on his web-site, that he could print maps of differrent sizes.  You should be able to get a map the size you can use.  Especially if you have room to fit a 1940-global map.

    @Tall:

    I know the “Coach” at HBG has offerred to print maps at differrent sizes before.

    Thus you shouldn’t feel ANY pressure concerning a map being too large for your purposes as you should be able to get one made in the size you desire.  That is only one of my many concerns for the AVERAGE PLAYER.

    6. Tigerman was contemplating using a 48" x 60" map size.  As you can see this would be an approximately 40% reduction in the WIDTH of a map in PROPORTION or RATIO to the standard global size map.  For example:

    Standard Global Map Ratios:
                          printed in differrent sizes.  24" x 60"    36" x 80"    48" x 108"
    Tigermans contemplated Map:
                          printed in differrent sizes.  24" x 30"    36" x 45"    48" x 60"

    @Tigerman77:

    Maybe a 60x48 inch map would be good also.

    You can see the significant differrence in the WIDTH of these maps.  I was concerned that we might loose valuable space (in width) for not only sea zones, but for some islands and off-board bases that could have a tremendous effect on the gameplay if they weren’t included.  We’ll decide on whatever is best in this case.

    7. The two games on one map.

    The Coral Sea Game would be a tactical-level naval game with no land combat, the Solomons Campaign is an operational-level game that has both sea and land combat.  The two levels are not compatible on the same scale map.

    With all due respect,…I couldn’t agree less!  @Tigerman77 <br:< small=“”>> @CWO:

    @Tall:

    I think a map could be made where both scenarios could be played out. I’ll look into iot and get back to ya in next few days. I’m trying to finish up my Okinawa game. Might be able to look at this next week.

    And it looks as if our acknowledged “Map Master”, Tigerman would agree with that.

    Timerover, I hope you now have a better understanding of what I and Variable meant by proportions or ratios.  I truly value your input and would invite you to continue expressing your ideas, opinions and concerns,… just as I hope everyone will.

    As I Say,…What Do YA’LL Think???
                                                                                        “Tall Paul”</br:<>

  • Customizer

    “Gang”,

    Expanded A&A-The Naval Series
    Coral Sea & The Solomons Campaign

    Discussion Topic-Search / Recon Rules

    Although when I mentioned the possibility of only putting a Task Force Marker on the gameboard to represent any and/all TFs, I didn’t state that the entire composition of that Task Force would obviously be set aside OFF the gameboard until the TF was “spotted”.

    Aircraft flying CAP missions, or ASW when speaking of enemy Subs,…could potientially intefere with the spotting ability of enemy aircraft or subs.  I would be interested in what your views might be on this.

    As I Say,…What Do YA’LL Think???
                                                                                      “Tall Paul”

  • '14

    There needs to be some type of supply system, as in Guadalcanal and Bulge games. Just saying! I’m gonna work on a map for this game in my spare time, seeing that the units won;t be out until spring of next year, if at all.


  • Expanded A&A-The Naval Series
    Coral Sea & The Solomons Campaign
    Discussion Topic-Search / Supply System

    Supply system is a great idea, I like it. Men, Ships, Tanks and planes can’t operate without the scorned basics of Ammo, Beans, Fuel and spare parts.  How about using the supply markers from the Battle of the Bulge for this?  Cost IPCs to supply units.  If using convoys each ship could transport say 2 supply markers and if the ship is sunk they are lost.  Trucks on land transport 1 marker each, if destroyed supply marker is lost. Any thoughts on this?

    WARRIOR888

  • '14

    I used a supply system in my Italy game. It’s a bit cumbersome but I thought necessary to hinder the axis moving to much too fast. I thunk in a naval game a supply system makes you purchase DD and DE to protect your convoys and makes subs more valuable. I think it will add a new demension to the game. Expanded A&A for sure, not only combat but logistics.

    Ob another note we need general/admiral cards! In a tactical game alot rides on the commanders decision in battle. They are expensive to make but if we can get enough interest in this game maybe someone could make some to sell at a reasonable price! Just an idea. If not cards then we need a general/admiral system for battles.

  • Customizer

    “Gang”,

    Expanded A&A-The Naval Series
    Coral Sea & The Solomon Campaign

    Discussion Topic-Supply & Logistics

    Hey Gang,

    1. I couldn’t agree more that we NEED a “supply & logistics” segment to our game series.  And it should play a very important part, too…ESPECIALLY in the Solomons Campaign.

    2. I’m pretty sure when I made my List of Ships that I listed an AK Freighter, AO Oiler, and an AP Transport(personell) just for this reason.

    3. Any way you “Slice and Dice” the Guadalcanal combat,…it was Still a Battle of Supplies, and their Use, Destruction or Protection.  Armys couldn’t move or fight, Aircraft couldn’t fly, nor Ships sail very long WITHOUT their SUPPLY!

    4A. I think the addition of an AO Oiler into the games’ unit mix allows a wonderful opportunity for us to add a needed (yet SIMPLE) logistical support system, especially for the Naval Ships.  Not only would you have to have enough oil income(see below) to support a certain number of ships,…but you would also have to see that the oil reaches the ships every certain amount of turns or they run out(of Oil).

    4B. Some time ago, I read a series of posts where the “Imperious Leader” was speaking on the virtues of the inclusion of OIL in an A&A game.  I will describe it to the best of my memory and I’m certainly paraphasing here.  It was a GREAT piece(as all of his I’ve seen so far have been).

    The main points of his Oil strategy were that each gamepiece on the board required a certain number of “Oil points”(OPs) to be SUPPORTED.  Ships consumed the most Oil, Aircraft less, and Land units the very least.  Thus the point was you couldn’t simply build 20 Battleships unless you had the necessary Oil Points to SUPPORT them.

    The Oil Points you of course earn through conquering map territories that produce Oil Points each turn.  It made a LOT of sense in having to balance your military power to your ability to supply them(with oil).  It could also lead to some great clashes all over the map(for Oil) instead of just the obvious strategic places of battle.  I had made a mental note that it was a GREAT SYSTEM and something we should definately consider.  I’ll look for it again,…and/or maybe we can get IL himself to describe it to us.

    4C. And if I remember correctly it had also been discussed about using the “Oil Derricks” out of a game called “Wildcatter” to be the on-board representations of the Oil producing locations.  They were very good looking pieces and I remember the “Coach” of HBG had posted a pic of them.  These Oil Derricks were able to be damaged by combat actions just like Air Bases, Naval Bases, or Industrial Complexes.

    5. I think that a Supply & Logistics System should be a MUST for ALL of the games in our Expanded Naval Series but especially for this Solomons game.  This is EXACTLY the type of EXPASION of CAPABILITIES that I had foretold of if we could get the necessary units produced(AO Oilers in this case).

    Some of the primary considerations that we need to have about our supply system is that it should be:
    SIMPLE, LOGICAL, and FAST in gameplay time.  I think the “supply markers” from the Guadalcanal game would be worth investigating for the supplies other than OIL, although my only concern here is if they are available.  I was planning to modify the “Air Base Markers” from that game to make some 3-D Air Bases for my Global game, but after I bought 26 of them, the “Coach” said he was out of them and didn’t know if he’d be able to get any more.

    I am glad ya’ll are beginning to express your ideas and opinions more readily now.  I have been trying to hold back to a great deal because I was really trying to help concentrate all of our discussions into one or two ideas at a time.  I now can see that ya’ll aren’t afraid of openning several “cans of worms at the same time”(as the old Southern expression goes).  That’s great and I think it will only aid in the creative process.  Although this thread will obviously grow to an extensive length before we are done, I think the “discussion topic” notes will allow us to skip all over the place and then go back and find what we need later, wherever they end up in this thread.  And by the way, thanks for the topic notes you put on your post, Warrior, it will no doubt help doing this.

    Some other topics for discussion:

    Did ya’ll catch the small “blip” about “Battle Results Transfer” that I had posted sometime ago?  I’ll find it so we might discuss it further and see if ya’ll think it merits inclusion in the game or not.

    Tigerman, I think I have an good idea of what you mean by General and Admiral Cards, but would you mind telling me the specifics of these?  Also, I saw that the “Coach” was asking the A&A.Org forum members the other day about where he might be able to have some custom cards made.

    Also, I think that everyone else is now beginning to realize all of the distict possibilities for Combat that can occur simply through the games Naval Support.  Convoy Interdiction and/or the Total commitment of your Naval Surface and Naval Air Forces to hopefully ensure that a needed convoy gets through.  This (supply system) and many other types of naval functions can and probably will lead to a great many Naval battles, and some will be HUGE !  That is only one of the many reasons I think that a SOLOMONS CAMPAIGN game would be a fantastic arena to show off all of the new CAPABILITIES of our “Expanded A&A Naval Series”.

    Well, I just get more and more excited about all of the possibilites of this Expanded gaming system the more I think of it.  I CAN’T WAIT !

    As I Say,…What ?Do YA’LL Think???
                                                                                           “Tall Paul”


  • Expanded A&A-The Naval Series
    Coral Sea & The Solomon Campaign

    Gents, lets keep this on track, map size is important I agree.  We need to look at larger map sizes for more islands and sea zones to control.  We all agree on this.  Has anyone besides Imperious Leader heard of this AA game?  The War Game: WORLD WAR II
    The Biggest, Baddest, Supreme, King, Grandaddy of all World War II board games Entire game board (40" x 80") All units for everyone are Nazis.
    Now this map is so big it will not fit on any standard dinning table nor does it fit on mine.  I set it up on the bed in the master bedroom.  It is hard mounted and very heavy.

    So go out and look at the size of this massive map and lets consider a scale down from this to keep it affordable, payable and add additional features as we have previously discussed.
    WARRIOR888

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