Alpha +3 = UK1 Factory in EGY breaks the game?



  • @Stalingradski:

    Gargantua - let’s play. I’ll show you exactly how Germany and Italy can beat Russia. I didn’t say will - there are too many variables in the game.

    Maybe you’ve noticed that playtesters the world 'round have not come to the same conclusions you have? Maybe… just maybe… you haven’t played against opponents capable of giving Russia a run for their money?

    Look back a few threads (German Opening) at my plan for Barbarossa, and tell me in as much detail how you’d counter it, if you’re not willing to play me.

    Like it or not, this game is pretty balanced.

    What playtesters are you talking about? We are the playtesters.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Kobu:

    @Stalingradski:

    Gargantua - let’s play. I’ll show you exactly how Germany and Italy can beat Russia. I didn’t say will - there are too many variables in the game.

    Maybe you’ve noticed that playtesters the world 'round have not come to the same conclusions you have? Maybe… just maybe… you haven’t played against opponents capable of giving Russia a run for their money?

    Look back a few threads (German Opening) at my plan for Barbarossa, and tell me in as much detail how you’d counter it, if you’re not willing to play me.

    Like it or not, this game is pretty balanced.

    What playtesters are you talking about? We are the playtesters.

    I think he is talking about Larry’s friends who play with him over a table.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    I think he is talking about Larry’s friends who play with him over a table.

    Wow that’s dirty Jen…



  • Kobu - fair enough point, but I think there’s more than the eight or so people who regularly troll these sites playtesting…  🙂

    Thousands of people own and play the game, and most of them aren’t here.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Yea, and most of them arent playing Alpha + anything…



  • Fair enough, sir.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Mantle, there are quite a bit of increases to the Axis that make Russia easier.

    1)  No more 12 IPC if Japan attacks.
    2)  What Russia does get if Japan attacks is easily crushed under the jack-boot of Japanese imperailism
    3)  No more sea lion means no more need to build transports.
    4)  Submarines do more convoy damage now, reduced naval expenditures.
    5)  Lots of free AA Guns.  Does Russia lose planes (and htey will eventually) or do they lose Armor (which they have to lose instead of planes) or do they retreat? 
    5.1) If they retreat, Germany makes more, Russia earns less.
    5.2) If they lose planes, Germany has less defense to break, Russia can ill afford to replace planes, Germany has to lose an awful lot of planes to need to replace them, and if they find they do need to replace them, they earn significantly more and can afford it.
    5.3) Likewise arguement for armor.  Russia can not afford to lose 1 or 2 armor each round retaking land.  Germany can.

    How does Russia respond to:

    6 Infantry, 2 Armor in Arkhangelsk
    10 Infantry, 3 Artillery, 3 Armor, AA Gun in Baltic States
    10 Infantry, 3 Artillery, 3 Armor, AA Gun in N. Ukraine
    20 Infantry, 5 Artillery, 6 Armor, 5 FIghters, 5 Tactical Bombers, Strategic Bomber, AA Gun in E. Poland
    2 Infantry in Belarus

    ?

    They cannot.  They do not have enough firepower to bring to bear on all those points.  Therefore, they have to choose and whatever they choose, they will lose more, in proportion to what they can build, than Germany will.  With moderate investment by the Italians, the forward German headquarters can inch forward territory by territory while the Russians deplete themselvess against moderate stacks of German forces, or if they retreat, the Germans can surround Moscow faster, thus, reducing the number of units defending it.

    Japan, following up, can sap the strength from the East.



  • If Italy’s weakness is your worry, why not get their big brother involved in the Med?

    I guess Italy would be massively helped by either a German Southern France or German Balkan with a minor IC putting some warships into the Med.



  • A German Minor IC and Airbase in Greece is very, very nice… I’ve done it in my last two Alpha 2 games. Once the Allies get powerful around the Eastern Med, Italy and Germany can tuck into SZ97, with the cover of six Axis aircraft of your choice. A German Sub or Destroyer per round (or as needed) in the Med becomes a real thorn for the good guys.



  • I notice that a strategic bomber stationed in Greece could hit a Egypt or Iraq.  It could also hit Stalingrad for that matter.  Persia is out of range though.



  • Absolutely Vance. My last game I had two parked there in the late game. You’ll also notice that the range allows you to still hit the Atlantic sea zones hugging the French coastline, hit Moscow and fall back to the airbase in Leningrad (which Germany will own :evil:), and threaten SZ81. A nice place to project power in the center of the board.



  • Mantle - you make a great point. It achieves most (if not all) of the objectives an IC in Greece does… I’ll have to think about this.

    As you said, it’s also much easier to protect. I didn’t find it to be a money pit the two times I used it, because the purchases were exactly what I wanted and needed - if I’m building a Fighter, I build it there, and some naval units as well. I found the German navy to be very welcome protecting the underbelly.

    I have a long drive today… I’ll be thinking over what is gained and what is lost with an IC in Yugoslavia - but at first glance it’s a really solid idea -



  • Ok, couldn’t help myself.

    Looking at the map, I see the major positive of having an IC/airbase in Greece to be coverage of three SZs (97,99,100).

    The major downside is vulnerability to an aggressive Allied fleet.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Stalingradski:

    A German Minor IC and Airbase in Greece is very, very nice… I’ve done it in my last two Alpha 2 games. Once the Allies get powerful around the Eastern Med, Italy and Germany can tuck into SZ97, with the cover of six Axis aircraft of your choice. A German Sub or Destroyer per round (or as needed) in the Med becomes a real thorn for the good guys.

    It also allows transports in SZ 100 and units to be deployed into Caucasus without having to go through Odessa.



  • I had always thought it best to just let the Germans take the IC in Southern France. That way Germany can start building in the Med. by G2 instead of G3 while putting them in position to block allied naval units from entering the Med. and building units in France to counter attack allied landings in the Normandy/low countries(I know I say this all the time but to help give perspective I usually have Italy take over the Balkans so talk of putting an IC there dosnt work in my games, an airbase maybe). If the Brits were to build an IC in Egypt on UK1, then I would consider allowing the Germans to take over Yugo and place an IC there as it would be clear that the bulk of the UKs Income is going to be spent in the eastern Med and that where I need to counter more


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    I’ve done it that way before, but I found that it was unnecessary.  You have transports in SZ 112, why not sail them to SZ 91 on G2 and on G3 bring them into N. Africa?  Save you the money, give Italy a little more cash.



  • So I guess the advantage of Germany building an IC in Greece over just using the captured Southern France & Ukraine ICs would be that any new ships built there immediately have air cover due to the Greece air base (a definite must-have item).  The Ukraine-Greece combo provides protection against the red airforce for German Black Sea transports, but could similar protection for German Mediterranean fleet be provided by an aircraft carrier parked in 93?  Perhaps one built G1?  Subs built in 93 may scoot out through Gibraltar without having to run the Mediterranean gauntlet that subs built in 97 might have to face if the axis does not control Suez.



  • Vance, for me the German navy built in the Med in a Greece IC are not meant to slip into the Med, but to cause pain to Allied shipping as it comes into the Med, or to force the Allies to battle through a combined German/Italian fleet + six aircraft cover from 2 Airbases… a tall order. I make a commitment to Italian navy as well… a Sub or Destroyer as well.

    As Jennifer said - an unsuspecting foe can be hurt by ships built directly into the Black Sea (SZ100) - as long as the Russian air force is small and you have the cover of an Airbase. But… they’re landlocked unless you crush through Turkey when the moment is right. I had this done to me - the first time it was a constant trade war in the Caucasus/Rostov area, which of course was to the German advantage… the second game I wised up and stacked Russian Infantry (4-6) in that region in preparation, and his naval builds in the Black Sea were wasted money. So… this is one of those one-time strategies, or opportunistic strategies, not a constant SOP.

    Clyde/Vance - I continue to be intrigued by the German takeover of S France. Like you said, it’s instant units on G2 if desired, and no 12 IPCs needed. For Italy, the extra infrastructure is a waste, as they can purchase and push units directly from N Italy as needed.

    I’m also intrigued by the idea of an Airbase only in Greece - though my concern is that it would be harder to defend with no IC to make instant builds. You’d have to be very mindful with Germany/Italy to push units there in advance and keep a small but steady supply - as Mantlefan pointed out - Greece is vulnerable.



  • Our little gaming group has made the G1 attack on Southern France a standard move. It allows German submarines or transports to be built on G2. Normally this means that the Germans do not have enough forces to hit Normandy as well. But no matter they catch it the next turn. The British fighter gets away but sometimes the Germans get their Egyptian NO bonus as early as turn 3. It helps.

    Lately one player has decided to attack Spain, Turkey and Norway on turn 3 with the Germans. Almost every game. It worked well the first time when it was a surprise. Not so much thereafter. He loves the flanking move near the Caucasus and being able to reinforce Gibraltar.



  • I totally Agree with Gargantua. The allies are way too strong. Has anyone tried a UK take out of Italy’s destroyer and transport with fighters and moving all fleet that can reach to gilbralter (still in the Med)? Ya Italy’s fleet is safe, but UK has 4 planes (5 if normandy isn’t hit) and 2 destroyers 2 cruisers or whatever Else germany didn’t kill as well as an aircraft carrier. UK can then on Turn 2 kill Italy fleet, or if Italy blocks or moves out of range UK can just move to in range and kill Italy fleet on UK 3 for the loss of very little. This also coupled with a UK build of an IC on UK2 in Egypt Italy is gone from Africa by UK turn 4 or 5, and Italy’s underbelly is under threat from UK with transports and all of UK fleet plus fighters. Buying 7 infantry for UK and 2 mech infs for SA turn 1. and if Germany Builds all transports turn 2 UK can then just build all infantry for UK and defend seal lion, while still killing all of italy’s fleet easily. UK can then go 100% Italy until turn 5 or 6 when US is in the war with enough to defend UK transports up north. Then UK can buy transports for UK and have 3 transports shucking men in from med. and 4 UK transports or 5 from UK shucking men. UK can do this because of all the money UK has. This is around 40 because of all of africa and middle east.



  • In it something is. Many thanks for the help in this question. I did not know it.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    REMOVED, point is valid, but was a bit inflamatory.  Only leaving this note for those who follow Gargantua’s link from the other forums.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Deleting previous two posts, PMing Gargantua to continue discussion.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    You can usually BLOCK the Germans going to GIB by putting a destroyer in the English channel.  The one off England usually lives…


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Gargantua:

    You can usually BLOCK the Germans going to GIB by putting a destroyer in the English channel.  The one off England usually lives…

    In Alpha 3, however, the Italians have a strategic bomber that can hit SZ 104.  I dont really like the odds as you only have a 57% chance to survive, but you do have an 85-86% chance to sink the British destroyer.  I’d do it, if getting to Gibraltar was detrimental to my plans with Germany.


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