How should I bomb UK?



  • So if Sea lion is out, I think Germany has to do an economic campaign on UK.  I am looking for advice on how to go about it.

    I was thinking to bomb their airbase with 2 tactical bombers on G1 while their planes are busy scrambling to defend the ships in sea zone 110.  I would be attacking 110 and 112, and building 2 strategic bombers and a sub for West Germany.  I am leaving 111 alone so as not to risk losing a lot of planes.

    Then on G2 I would like to bomb their airfield again using tactical bombers from Holland if they have rebuilt it (which they should have done so they can scramble to protect their ships from my airforce and my fleet parked in 112).

    In addition, do you think on G2 I should use my 3 strategic bombers to: a) bomb the industrial complex or b) bomb the Scotland airbase?  My plan is to put a sub in 119 and always keep one there, because it is close and I can use my strategic bombers against any destroyers that kill my subs, but I sure would hate to lose a bomber to a fighter that scrambles from Scotland.  On the other hand, UK wants to start building ground forces in preparation for D-day so hitting their IC makes them spend money to rebuild it.

    Any suggestions would be appreciated.



  • The benefit would be that since they want to be able to scramble fighters to protect ships next turn, they have to spend a few bucks now to rebuild the airbase.  If I were to hit the IC instead, they could ignore that damage and still build cheap units.  Hitting the airbase forces them to spend money on rebuilding.  Notice that this is kind of like the real battle of Britain.

    I don’t do Normandy on G1.  Two subs go to the Canadian navy.  The 3 AAs from West Germany can help defend the stutkas in Holland.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Vance:

    The benefit would be that since they want to be able to scramble fighters to protect ships next turn, they have to spend a few bucks now to rebuild the airbase.  If I were to hit the IC instead, they could ignore that damage and still build cheap units.  Hitting the airbase forces them to spend money on rebuilding.  Notice that this is kind of like the real battle of Britain.

    I don’t do Normandy on G1.  Two subs go to the Canadian navy.  The 3 AAs from West Germany can help defend the stutkas in Holland.

    Hitting the Industrial Complex is a higher priority, but you only start with the 1 strategic (and I am starting to use that for SZ 109 instead.)  The airbase/naval base is a good idea, if they don’t repair it, you never have to go back and if they scramble interceptors, you might luck out and get a 10 IPC unit instead of doing 3 dmg to a base somewhere (or in addition too.)

    2 Submarines in SZ 109 are highly effective, if you can kill both destroyers.

    An extra submarine in SZ 106 and you’re up to 11 Convoy Damage to England a round for 4 rounds before America can do anything about it. (And then it is only 1 submarine off Canada.) Yes, they could put a destroyer in SZ 106, but then, you still have 60% odds of sinking it (40% win, 20% tie, 40% lose) - http://www.campusactivism.org/aacalc/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=1&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=1&dCru=&dCar=&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-Arm-Car-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Bom-HBom-Inf-Art-Arm-Sub-SSub-Car-Des-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=Revised&round=1&pbem=

    I’d trade a submarine for a destroyer if I was iflicting economic dmg on England. 8 IPC destroyer instead of 3 convoy damage?  Sure.  With Gibraltar in my hands, getting a replcacement there is no problem wither.


  • '15 Official Q&A '11 '10 Moderator

    No way.  Use the tacs to increase your odds on other battles.  England still gets to fire AA guns at them.
    Mantle pointed out the max amount to get operational would cost 4.  I would look at it this way.  If you survive the AA fire (83% chance for each), then you have a 33% chance of rolling a 1 or a 2, which costs England nothing (on UK1, at least).  33% chance of costing them 1 or 2, and 33% chance of costing 3 or 4.

    So through UK1, your weighted average of damage is only 1/2 IPC, and that’s rounding up.
    There is a 16.7% chance of losing an 11 IPC tac, or about 2 IPC’s.  Plus, you’re giving him options - to decide whether to scramble or intercept.

    I like that you’re thinking of all your options, but I think it is absolutely a bad idea to strat bomb bases on G1.

    One more thing.  Germany’s aircraft threaten the UK and Russia.  You do NOT want to give the allies extra chances to shoot these tacs down, because destroyed planes threaten no-one, and frees up options for both Russia and the UK, which is very bad.  Since Germany can produce more units than she can afford anyway, you do not want to be replacing aircraft in the early turns.


  • 2017 '16 '13 '12

    Bombing the UK will not work unless you get lucky, this is a high risk / low reward strategy. The Germans have better use to make out of their planes than bombing the UK.

    E.g.,

    Killing destroyers and preventing scramble of the RAF, letting the subs do their jobs
    Giving a hand to Italy in the med.
    Protecting Gibraltrar
    Helping the Afrika Corps (my new plan involves the Germans going down to Africa)
    Pounding on the Russians


  • 2017 '16 '13 '12

    I don’t think there is a hurry to interdict. The important issue is complete Naval / Air Dominance over the Atlantic.

    Here is how I see it,

    I buy 2 subs, 1 carrier. (or substitute 1 sub for a destroyer)

    I send 2 subs to 106. Baring  bad dice, the destroyer / transport will be destroyed and there will be 1 or 2 subs left. Unless the UK player sends the destroyer from 109 after 106, convoy damage of 3 should be given.

    All the sea zones but 111 and 109 are cleared off. If the UK player joins it’s fleet in 109 on his turn (2 destroyers, 1 battleship and 91 cruiser + 3 planes, or 4 planes if leave a loner in scotland + whatever they build) then I will have to counter on 109.

    3 subs from 112 (original 124 plus purchases)
    Likely 1 sub from 110, although not sure
    1 Battleship
    1 Cruiser
    1 Carrier
    1 Bomber
    All my tac / Fighers, including those from S Italy (because of carrier)

    The fleet can come from 111 / 119 (from 112) or from 110, so this thing is hard to block.

    So if the UK joins up in 109, I’m perfectly fine with that!

    So then it’s clear that the UK player won’t consolidate in 109. So he’lll need to put the 2 destroyers, the battelship and the cruiser somewhere else, but where? Cruiser is probably best suited to go help in the Med (e.g., block 92).

    Zone 124 is a bad idea, too many planes (bomber, carrier planes + planes landing on carrier) / subs  / surface fleet can reach

    Zone 123 may look safer, because less planes can reach, but all subs from 112 + surface fleet is enough to do the job. Add to this the subs from 106 and this is a bad idea.

    119 is not safe either, can’t easily be blocked

    118 may be the best option, but still need a block in 119 and 109… Again, this is in reach of bomber, and carrier planes.

    So I think the UK Navy will be finished off at this point with minimal cost to the German (at this point, your surface fleet can hang out in 109 to hold it for good, forget about the destroyers). The German fleet needs to be built anyway to deal with the US.

    Then start building subs in Normandy to send to 91 / UK Convoy zones. This forces the US navy to spend at least some in the Atlantic. Subs are cheap, expandable and hard to kill. They can help build a formidable defence in Gibraltar, or if appropriate, a force to counterattack sea zone 91 (along with planes).

    I have not determined when the US enters the war. I am praying for the UK to declare war on Japan. Sure thing, my Germany won’t try to invade the UK (although I might if opportunity present itselfs, e.g., lots of builds off Canada), I will isolate it and overwhelm it with impossible odds to defy the German fleet and air force.

    Meanwhile, Italy better kick butt in Africa to further reduce UK’s relevance in the game.



  • I have seen, in atleast one or 2 games the successful knocking out of Britian by non-invasion means. There are 2 ways that you can best achieve this and both hurt Britian in very different ways.

    The first is pretty obvious and that is to focus the Axis on taking out as much of Africa as they can. Yes I know, its much eaiser said then done, but Britian has more of its economy based in Africa then anywere else in the game. Aggressive and active German involvment in a push on Cairo will help the Italians and Hurt the British immensely. Barring that buying subs and sending them to hang out in the south atlantic and raid the convoys down there will have the same effect. I would reccomend building the subs you intend to use for this in South France, and plan on capturing gibraltar.

    The second way, and most effective ive seen, is buying a few extra bombers, and spending some resources on researching heavy bombers. The first time I saw this happen it was an accident, the player rolled random and got heavy bombers. He then spent the next several turns bombing London and all its bases in to oblivion. The amount of damage he was able to do with a fleet of 4 heavy bombers was devistating. Britian was left useless, unable to build anything with out first spending nearly 1/2 to 1/3 of its economy repairing damage done to its IC. This really put Britian on the back foot and made them a non-entity in Europe. With this, the German player also built his sub fleet back up a bit and placed an air base in normandy. This allowed him to block early attempts by the US to send reinforcments to Britian, and was able to keep them out of Europe for a few extra crucial turns.


  • 2017 '16 '13 '12

    @mantlefan:

    2 key questions: Did you attack Normandy, and if not, what did you put in Holland?

    Here is the turn:

    Build Aircraft Carrier + 1 sub + 1 destroyer in zone 112

    Take 112 (1 cruiser, 1 sub and 1 battleship)
    Take 106 with 2 subs (117 / 118)
    Take 110 (against BB and Cruiser + 3 scramble) with 2 subs (103/ 108) +  1 bomber 3 tactical (W. Germany) + 2 fighters (1 from Holland, 1 from Norway: none of these to south Italy)
    Take France Turn 1 (4 infantry, 4 mec, 3 artillery, 4 tanks, 1 tactical from Poland, 1 fighter from Slovakia)
    Take Normandy Turn 1 (Destroy fighter to help Italian Fleet) - 1 Infantry, 1 tank and 1 fighter, Attack with 3 infantry, 1 tank, 1 tactical from Germany, 2 fighters ( 2 from W Germany)
    Take Bulgaria with 1 infrantry from Romania / Finland with 1 infrantry from Norway
    Take Yugoslavia (3 tanks, 6 infantry with 3 from great southern germany, 1 from romania, 2 from slovakia, 2 artillery from great southern Germany)

    Move 2  fighters to Southern Italy (from Western Germany, attacked Normandy)
    Land tactical from Poland in W. Germany
    Land Figher from Norway on Carrier
    Land Figher from Holland on Carrier
    Land fighter from Slovakia in Holland
    Land 1 Tactical from W. Germany to W. Germany
    Land 2 Tacticals from W. Germany to Holland
    Land 1 tactical from Germany in Holland
    Move 3 AA Guns to Holland

    In Holland: 3 AA guns, 3 tac, 1 fighter
    In West Germany: 2 tactical, 1 strategic bomber
    On 112: 1 damaged battleship, 1 cruiser, 2 subs, 1 destroyer, 1 carrier, 2 fighters
    In South Italy: 2 fighters

    25 / 36 chance to not lose a plane in  France
    Should not lose planes anywhere else unless UK scrambles


  • 2017 '16 '13 '12

    I’m considering taking a tac out of 110 to beef up 112 and reduce its variablility (since willing to gamble that UK player won’t scramble). 112 has a 50% chance of wiping out the 2 cruisers in 1 round, in which case the worst case scenario is losing the sub with 1 chance out of 4, provided the sub did not hit (no biggie). Chance of a total miss on first round is about 10%, in which case the cruiser should hit 1 on average. On next round, again, 50% chance of wiping out completely, if not trouble starts!

    Have flexibility to retreat from 110 if rolls are bad (although would prefer to kill that battleship instead of giving UK opportunity to repair it!)

    Another option is to reinforce 112 with the Polish Tactical heading for France but that seems to hurt that battle too much…

    Comments / suggestions?



  • So if I were to buy my 2 bombers and 1 sub on G1, I could wipe out UK’s navy on G2 similar to Omega’s suggestion.  I could then use those bombers to strategically bomb UK and to attack Leningrad in later turns.



  • So the consensus is don’t bomb them on G1 and use the bombers to help finish off the UK navy on G2 wherever they assemble their fleet.  But suppose UK doesn’t put all their ships in one basket.  They could move the cruiser from 91 and the destroyer+transport from 109 to 106 plus a fighter to New Br106 in order to put those 3 ships safely out of range and also deal with my sub(s).  They could also move the battleship and destroyer from 111 to 119 to cover that convoy route and also keep them out of range of my fighters and tactical bombers.  In that scenario do you think I should use the bombers against 119 or for strategic bombing?  If the answer is strategic bombing, then which airbase(s) and/or industrial complex?  Would it be preferable to take out the 119 destroyer and slip a sub or 2 into 109?



  • Just as an afterthought, suppose I had gone ahead and bombed the London naval base on G1.  Chances are good that I would have lost 1 plane to interceptors and AA, but now on UK2 they couldn’t get my sub(s) in 106 because the destroyer would be out of range.


  • 2017 '16 '13 '12

    @Vance:

    So the consensus is don’t bomb them on G1 and use the bombers to help finish off the UK navy on G2 wherever they assemble their fleet.  But suppose UK doesn’t put all their ships in one basket.  They could move the cruiser from 91 and the destroyer+transport from 109 to 106 plus a fighter to New Br106 in order to put those 3 ships safely out of range and also deal with my sub(s).  They could also move the battleship and destroyer from 111 to 119 to cover that convoy route and also keep them out of range of my fighters and tactical bombers.  In that scenario do you think I should use the bombers against 119 or for strategic bombing?  If the answer is strategic bombing, then which airbase(s) and/or industrial complex?  Would it be preferable to take out the 119 destroyer and slip a sub or 2 into 109?

    In this case you can sink the fleet in 119 with planes from your carrier, bomber and a couple of subs left around the UK. You can occupy 109 with your surface fleet and stick around. The UK at this point needs to buy land units because otherwise we can go sealion pretty quickly!

    If you lose 106, nothing you can do about that, but that makes a sealion more likely to happen.



  • So the German battleship, cruiser, aircraft carrier with 2 fighters, and 2 subs can sit in 109 costing the UK 6IPCs per turn for a long time, and it would be costly to remove them.



  • Well 2 or 3 turns would be 18IPCs lost to UK if 2 subs were parked in 109, but I think I still like the idea of going with bombers instead of the carrier.  They can strategically bomb UK on G2 and they can also be used against the USSR: first to strategic bomb Leningrad on G3, and then to tactically bomb Leningrad on G4 along with the armies from Finland, Baltic states, and transports.  The bombers are much more useful I think.


  • 2017 '16 '13 '12

    @Vance:

    So the German battleship, cruiser, aircraft carrier with 2 fighters, and 2 subs can sit in 109 costing the UK 6IPCs per turn for a long time, and it would be costly to remove them.

    With that equipment in 109 you would take 8 IPC from UK.

    109 is in range of 91. Let the American come to you and take them apart when they come of 91. Then, come back to 109, if possible.



  • Do the surface ships convoy raid too?  I thought it was just subs.


  • 2017 '16 '13 '12

    @Vance:

    Do the surface ships convoy raid too?  I thought it was just subs.

    It’s one per surface warship according to rules OOB. Don’t know if that has changed…



  • @Omega1759:

    @Vance:

    Do the surface ships convoy raid too?  I thought it was just subs.

    It’s one per surface warship according to rules OOB. Don’t know if that has changed…

    No, it’s the same.  1 per surface ship, 2 per sub, 3 per German sub.



  • OK here is another idea for bombing UK on G1.  Suppose I want to take out their destroyers so that my subs have an easier time and/or UK spends a lot of money replacing them.  I also want to keep the ships in 110 out of the Mediterranean.  Maybe I could try this:

    2 subs to 106
    1 sub, Norway fighter, 2 West Germany fighters and 1 tactical bomber to 111
    1 sub, battleship, cruiser, Germany tactical bomber to 112
    1 sub and Holland fighter to 109
    Germany bomber and 2 West Germany tactical bombers hit UK naval base and possibly factory if all 3 planes get through. Note that UK must decide whether to use 3 fighters as interceptors (which hit on 2) or scramblers (which hit on 4).  If the naval base is made inoperable the ships in 110 cannot reach sea zone 92 on UK1 and Italy may well have taken Gibraltar by UK2.
    All land units in range attack France, Yugoslavia, Finland, Bulgaria.
    Poland tactical bomber and Slovakia fighter help out in Yugoslavia en route to S Italy.

    The battles in 109 and 111 might only be 1 round in order to take out the destroyers but limit risk of losing planes.  Hopefully we just lose subs we can afford but they lose destroyers they cannot afford to replace.


  • 2017 '16 '13 '12

    @Vance:

    OK here is another idea for bombing UK on G1.  Suppose I want to take out their destroyers so that my subs have an easier time and/or UK spends a lot of money replacing them.  I also want to keep the ships in 110 out of the Mediterranean.  Maybe I could try this:

    2 subs to 106
    1 sub, Norway fighter, 2 West Germany fighters and 1 tactical bomber to 111
    1 sub, battleship, cruiser, Germany tactical bomber to 112
    1 sub and Holland fighter to 109
    Germany bomber and 2 West Germany tactical bombers hit UK naval base and possibly factory if all 3 planes get through. Note that UK must decide whether to use 3 fighters as interceptors (which hit on 2) or scramblers (which hit on 4).  If the naval base is made inoperable the ships in 110 cannot reach sea zone 92 on UK1 and Italy may well have taken Gibraltar by UK2.
    All land units in range attack France, Yugoslavia, Finland, Bulgaria.
    Poland tactical bomber and Slovakia fighter help out in Yugoslavia en route to S Italy.

    The battles in 109 and 111 might only be 1 round in order to take out the destroyers but limit risk of losing planes.  Hopefully we just lose subs we can afford but they lose destroyers they cannot afford to replace.

    Bad idea, your 109 attack will be defeated easily with scrambles


  • 2017 '16 '13 '12

    Thanks for the comments, I think I decided I would move one of the tacs from 110 to 112. Would you scramble?

    @mantlefan:

    Thanks for taking the time to explain a legal strat to us in detail.
    Seems decent. If you have to  leave a UK BB alive it’s probably better ot leave the one in 111 alive as long as you have overwhelming odds in 110.

    Take 112 (1 cruiser, 1 sub and 1 battleship) Yeah, I might use a plane here. It’s hard to say whether to take the Slovak ftr or a tac from 110. With this I could actually see Germany losing the sub and taking a hit on the BB often enough to make this a scary battle.

    Let’s say however that only the BB got damaged.

    Take 106 with 2 subs (117 / 118) Almost always the best thing to do with those 2 subs. Since the sub survives in 112, our luck is not so good as to keep both of these ones.

    Take 110 (against BB and Cruiser + 3 scramble) with 2 subs (103/ 108) +  1 bomber 3 tactical (W. Germany) + 2 fighters (1 from Holland, 1 from Norway: none of these to south Italy)
    Germany will be doing 4 hits here in all likelihood. UK will hit either the cruiser or the BB leaving 1 sub, and 2 ftrs, meaning the krauts take 1 ftr and 1 tac. That leaves 2 tac 1 bmb vs 2 ftr. Germany probably wouldn’t retreat with only 2 UK planes left.

    Honestly as UK I doubt I’d scramble here, since Germany will get at least 4 hits most of the time, 5 is not a stretch. I guess I could just be happy with Germany having “wasted” the extra rolls of those planes.

    So Germany keeps 1 sub and loses no planes.

    Take France Turn 1 (4 infantry, 4 mec, 3 artillery, 4 tanks, 1 tactical from Poland, 1 fighter from Slovakia) I really think you need to plan for if not just expect 1 aa hit there. I know it’s less than 50/50, but we all know poop happens and this is such an important battle for Germany that it seems like more poop will happen.

    So Germany (I count mech inf as inf for simplicity) has
    8 inf, 3 art, 4 tanks, 1 tac
    7 inf, 2 art, 2 tanks 1 ftr, 1 aa
    France^

    Round 1 5/6 hits for Germany (let’s say 5 since planning for slightly lower dice doesn’t take into consideration planning for the worst, which also happens all too often lol. This analysis might be a little too friendly compared to the axis dice my group usually sees round 1 🙂 )

    Allies get 4-5, let’s say 5

    So Round 2
    3 inf 3 art 4 tanks 1 tac
    3 inf 2 art 2 tank 1 ftr

    Germany Gets 4-5, let’s say 4
    Allies get 3-4, let’s say 3 this time.

    Round 3:
    3 art, 4 tanks, 1 tac
    1 art, 2 tank, 1 ftr

    Germany Gets 3-4, let’s say all 4 this time.
    Allies get 2 ish.
    Germany loses 4 inf 4 mechs 2 art. And that’s with quite even dice. Germany hit the lower end of average twice, higher once, allies hit the higher end of average once and lower once, as well as dead-on once, and the AA of course. That’s dangerously close to getting into German tanks. But,  I think if you want Normandy it’s the route you need to go.

    Take Normandy Turn 1 (Destroy fighter to help Italian Fleet) - 1 Infantry, 1 tank and 1 fighter, Attack with 3 infantry, 1 tank, 1 tactical from Germany, 2 fighters ( 2 from W Germany) You should be able to walk away with the tank pretty reliably. It’s good to get those ftrs into action while still getting to S. Italy.

    Yugo Bulg Finland are fine of course.



  • @mantlefan:

    Really, in situations where the land and sea are under attack, they can just hold back their ftrs and rape your Tac bombers.

    I’m not exactly sure what the benefit of bombing the airbase so heavily is. UK never needs to spend more than 4 getting it operational again, and the Germans risk a lot once UK has 4 or 5 ftrs on London.

    With a new rule, repairs to capitol ships and facilities should be paid for at the beginning of your next turn (ie “Purchase & repair units”), but do not come into effect until the end of the turn (ie “Mobilize new units”).  That would make it worthwhile.


  • 2018 2017 '16 '11 Moderator

    Agreed, i think repairing your ships should cost something…maybe 4 IPC Carrier, 6 IPC Battleboat or something.



  • Honestly the way I read the rules, I thought it already worked that way.  I assumed that bombing facilities would take them out of action for a turn.  Its seem pointless to bomb something and the defender simply pays a small penalty to fix it and can use it right away.  My 2 cents is that repairs should not come into effect until the mobilize new units phase of the turn on which they paid for them.  Otherwise why would anyone ever bother bombing anything??


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