Early Barbarossa



  • With all the new incentives for Germany to not attempt Sea Lion (the AA guns, the possible lost planes in France, and Russia being able to jump in in the aftermath), it seems like Germany should go after Russia once again.  So are there benefits to doing it early (G1 or G2 mainly)?  There’s no longer as much of a need for Germany to go the naval rout G1, so it can either get a head start building units for Russia or it can get a few subs to do some convoy raiding, or maybe a bit of both.  Either way it’s far less commitment to a navy, meaning Germany can commit more to Russia.


  • 2017 2016 '13 '12

    @Ruanek:

    With all the new incentives for Germany to not attempt Sea Lion (the AA guns, the possible lost planes in France, and Russia being able to jump in in the aftermath), it seems like Germany should go after Russia once again.  So are there benefits to doing it early (G1 or G2 mainly)?  There’s no longer as much of a need for Germany to go the naval rout G1, so it can either get a head start building units for Russia or it can get a few subs to do some convoy raiding, or maybe a bit of both.  Either way it’s far less commitment to a navy, meaning Germany can commit more to Russia.

    Successful naval campaign against England is still needed… Without hitting them hard at the beginning, you’ll be harassed constantly and with force.



  • @Omega1759:

    @Ruanek:

    With all the new incentives for Germany to not attempt Sea Lion (the AA guns, the possible lost planes in France, and Russia being able to jump in in the aftermath), it seems like Germany should go after Russia once again.  So are there benefits to doing it early (G1 or G2 mainly)?  There’s no longer as much of a need for Germany to go the naval rout G1, so it can either get a head start building units for Russia or it can get a few subs to do some convoy raiding, or maybe a bit of both.  Either way it’s far less commitment to a navy, meaning Germany can commit more to Russia.

    Successful naval campaign against England is still needed… Without hitting them hard at the beginning, you’ll be harassed constantly and with force.

    Well, all you can hit with a naval campaign is their ships, and you can take out most of that G1 with the Luftwaffe.  And a strong air force is better at reacting to whatever the Allies do than a strong navy, which could be destroyed by a concentrated American attack anyway.

    Subs are almost always cost effective and they work well at weakening the UK without having to invest in a navy of larger, costlier ships.


  • 2017 2016 '13 '12

    @Ruanek:

    @Omega1759:

    @Ruanek:

    With all the new incentives for Germany to not attempt Sea Lion (the AA guns, the possible lost planes in France, and Russia being able to jump in in the aftermath), it seems like Germany should go after Russia once again.  So are there benefits to doing it early (G1 or G2 mainly)?  There’s no longer as much of a need for Germany to go the naval rout G1, so it can either get a head start building units for Russia or it can get a few subs to do some convoy raiding, or maybe a bit of both.  Either way it’s far less commitment to a navy, meaning Germany can commit more to Russia.

    Successful naval campaign against England is still needed… Without hitting them hard at the beginning, you’ll be harassed constantly and with force.

    Well, all you can hit with a naval campaign is their ships, and you can take out most of that G1 with the Luftwaffe.  And a strong air force is better at reacting to whatever the Allies do than a strong navy, which could be destroyed by a concentrated American attack anyway.

    Subs are almost always cost effective and they work well at weakening the UK without having to invest in a navy of larger, costlier ships.

    Question is whether you’ll be able to maintain the interdiction and weaken the UK enough while attacking on G2 (I assume G1 is out of question if you wish to attack the UK fleet)


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    I think it better to neutralize England, then go after Russia.

    Round 1: France/British Fleet
    Round 2: Set up convoy raids, bomb England into dust
    Round 3: Bomber England back into dust
    Round 4: Attack Russia

    And I wouldnt worry about all the AA Guns, they’re no where near as powerful as people make them out to be.  They dont get 3 shots per aircraft, they get 1 per aircraft up to a maximum of 3 aircraft, so they’re actually much weaker there.  They have no attack or defense value so no change there.  They still only move one and count as a mechanical unit on transports, again no difference.  The only difference is that they count as a unit that can be taken as a casuality.  And that change was only to stop Sea Lion from succeeding 98% of the time on Germany 2.  England should never have been so easy to crush, neither should India have been, which is why India was changed and now England is too.  Perhaps you would have been happier with no change to AA Guns but with France getting another infantry and England 4 more infantry?  No, I wouldn’t have liked that either, so let’s take this as it is.

    AA Guns are a lot more prominent now.  It’s reasonable to expect to use AA Guns in multiple stacks of units as you would armor or fighters thus pulling them out of the backranks or getting them out of large stacks of units so they can be more effective.  I’d be willing to toss 4 infantry, armor and AA Gun up for Russia as a blocker against Germany now, or vice versa.

    The change to Japan is AWESOME!  You can still attack Amur, but you have to do it from the sea, good!  There is still the non-agro agreement, but now it has to be agreed too.  I think the official house rule will be 12 IPC as per Alpha 2 for either side attacking. (The Mongolia change only effects Japan, but the non-aggression agreement effects both sides.)



  • @Omega1759:

    @Ruanek:

    @Omega1759:

    @Ruanek:

    With all the new incentives for Germany to not attempt Sea Lion (the AA guns, the possible lost planes in France, and Russia being able to jump in in the aftermath), it seems like Germany should go after Russia once again.  So are there benefits to doing it early (G1 or G2 mainly)?  There’s no longer as much of a need for Germany to go the naval rout G1, so it can either get a head start building units for Russia or it can get a few subs to do some convoy raiding, or maybe a bit of both.  Either way it’s far less commitment to a navy, meaning Germany can commit more to Russia.

    Successful naval campaign against England is still needed… Without hitting them hard at the beginning, you’ll be harassed constantly and with force.

    Well, all you can hit with a naval campaign is their ships, and you can take out most of that G1 with the Luftwaffe.  And a strong air force is better at reacting to whatever the Allies do than a strong navy, which could be destroyed by a concentrated American attack anyway.

    Subs are almost always cost effective and they work well at weakening the UK without having to invest in a navy of larger, costlier ships.

    Question is whether you’ll be able to maintain the interdiction and weaken the UK enough while attacking on G2 (I assume G1 is out of question if you wish to attack the UK fleet)

    I see your point.  I just don’t think there’s a reason to spend a large amount of IPCs on a German fleet (excluding subs for interdiction) unless Germany’s planning a major amphibious attack (Sea Lion, attacking America or Canada, etc.).  There just isn’t anything to do with it.



  • Hey Jenn, may I ask what you attack G1 with your U-boats?


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    @ViribusUnitis:

    Hey Jenn, may I ask what you attack G1 with your U-boats?

    SZ 91, SZ 106, SZ 110, SZ 111 and SZ 112 should all be cleared by German aircraft and naval craft.  There were no set up changes that effect these naval battles.  The risky one is SZ 106 due to the destroyer.  Next risky is SZ 91, if the submarine hits great, if it does not the cruiser probably will.  SZs 110, 111 and 112 all have at least 80% odds of success for the Germans, assuming Britian scrambles 3 aircraft to either SZ 110 or SZ 111.

    Other attacks:

    Yugoslavia
    France
    Annex Bulgaria
    Annex Finland

    Possible attacks, if I’m feeling uppity: S. France, W. France



  • I was thinking the goal is to get rid of Britain’s Destroyers to negate a counterattack on your subs…

    Like: U103 and U117 to SZ 106, U108 and U118 to SZ 109 (+1 Holland Fig, 1 W.G. Fig and 2 Tacs W.G.) and U124 to SZ 111 (+1 W.G. Fig, 1 Tac W.G., 1 Tac Ger. and the Bomber)
    Fleet + Norwegian fighter to SZ 112 ( Fighter then to S. Italy + the Slovenia Fighter)

    The battle in SZ 111 might get a little risky.

    That should give you at least 6 IPC in CRD for 2 Rounds. Maybe more.
    Btw. 3 Subs in 109 do 8 damage to the Brits, right?

    As for the Land Battles I’m not sure yet. But I think i wouldn’t attack Yugo since i want my men at the Front for a G2 attack on Russia.

    For my G1 buy, i will probably stay with the carrier, since it makes the fleet somewhat viable, could be useful if you have an opportunity to get to the Med. The transports i might change to a mIC in Romania or land units.


  • 2017 2016 '13 '12

    I thought about keeping only 1 sub in 110 and sending 2 to 106. I guess I could also send this sub to 91…

    I looking at IPC differentials and importance of destroyer in 106 plus convoy damage, think sending 2 subs to 106 is way to go.

    @Cmdr:

    @ViribusUnitis:

    Hey Jenn, may I ask what you attack G1 with your U-boats?

    SZ 91, SZ 106, SZ 110, SZ 111 and SZ 112 should all be cleared by German aircraft and naval craft.  There were no set up changes that effect these naval battles.  The risky one is SZ 106 due to the destroyer.  Next risky is SZ 91, if the submarine hits great, if it does not the cruiser probably will.  SZs 110, 111 and 112 all have at least 80% odds of success for the Germans, assuming Britian scrambles 3 aircraft to either SZ 110 or SZ 111.

    Other attacks:

    Yugoslavia
    France
    Annex Bulgaria
    Annex Finland

    Possible attacks, if I’m feeling uppity: S. France, W. France


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    I like to bid for a submarine for that reason.

    @Omega1759:

    I thought about keeping only 1 sub in 110 and sending 2 to 106. I guess I could also send this sub to 91…

    I looking at IPC differentials and importance of destroyer in 106 plus convoy damage, think sending 2 subs to 106 is way to go.

    @Cmdr:

    @ViribusUnitis:

    Hey Jenn, may I ask what you attack G1 with your U-boats?

    SZ 91, SZ 106, SZ 110, SZ 111 and SZ 112 should all be cleared by German aircraft and naval craft.  There were no set up changes that effect these naval battles.  The risky one is SZ 106 due to the destroyer.  Next risky is SZ 91, if the submarine hits great, if it does not the cruiser probably will.  SZs 110, 111 and 112 all have at least 80% odds of success for the Germans, assuming Britian scrambles 3 aircraft to either SZ 110 or SZ 111.

    Other attacks:

    Yugoslavia
    France
    Annex Bulgaria
    Annex Finland

    Possible attacks, if I’m feeling uppity: S. France, W. France


  • 2017 2016 '13 '12

    That certainly helps, but 1 sub is not sure business against a cruiser, it’s not a game changer. 2 subs against the cruiser would be wonderful (but that’s a bid of 12)

    Would not you prefer an extra 2-4 infantry in Kwangsi?

    @Cmdr:

    I like to bid for a submarine for that reason.

    @Omega1759:

    I thought about keeping only 1 sub in 110 and sending 2 to 106. I guess I could also send this sub to 91…

    I looking at IPC differentials and importance of destroyer in 106 plus convoy damage, think sending 2 subs to 106 is way to go.

    @Cmdr:

    @ViribusUnitis:

    Hey Jenn, may I ask what you attack G1 with your U-boats?

    SZ 91, SZ 106, SZ 110, SZ 111 and SZ 112 should all be cleared by German aircraft and naval craft.  There were no set up changes that effect these naval battles.  The risky one is SZ 106 due to the destroyer.  Next risky is SZ 91, if the submarine hits great, if it does not the cruiser probably will.  SZs 110, 111 and 112 all have at least 80% odds of success for the Germans, assuming Britian scrambles 3 aircraft to either SZ 110 or SZ 111.

    Other attacks:

    Yugoslavia
    France
    Annex Bulgaria
    Annex Finland

    Possible attacks, if I’m feeling uppity: S. France, W. France


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    I would not prefer extra infantry in Kwangsi.  Since I bring the lion’s share of Japan’s airforce to Yunnan, I generally only take 1 casualty there anyway.

    2 Submarines vs the Destroyer/Transport in SZ 106 and ignore the British Cruiser would probably be the way I go.  I want SZ 110, 111 and 112 and I want a pair of fighters in S. Italy just in case I want to scramble. (I want to force England to consider them before attack.  Most British players seem to be giving up on the Adriatic Sea Battle so they can pummel the Destroyer in SZ 96 and escape.  If you dont put the German fighters there, they try to pull a hat trick and get all three Sea Zones.)


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    I have not bid in Alpha 3 yet.  It’s too early to know if anyone even needs a bid.

    I like to buy up to 3 submarine a round with Germany.  You quickly see Germany with 20-30 submarines around the board in Alpha 2.  In alpha 3 you dont even need that many to cripple the United States and England.


  • 2017 2016 '13 '12

    @Cmdr:

    I would not prefer extra infantry in Kwangsi.  Since I bring the lion’s share of Japan’s airforce to Yunnan, I generally only take 1 casualty there anyway.

    2 Submarines vs the Destroyer/Transport in SZ 106 and ignore the British Cruiser would probably be the way I go.  I want SZ 110, 111 and 112 and I want a pair of fighters in S. Italy just in case I want to scramble. (I want to force England to consider them before attack.  Most British players seem to be giving up on the Adriatic Sea Battle so they can pummel the Destroyer in SZ 96 and escape.  If you dont put the German fighters there, they try to pull a hat trick and get all three Sea Zones.)

    The Chinese can retake Yunnan though?


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    2 Fighters from W. Germany to SZ 112 can make it to S. Italy.  They could go to SZ 110 and make it to S. Italy.

    @Omega1759:

    @Cmdr:

    I would not prefer extra infantry in Kwangsi.  Since I bring the lion’s share of Japan’s airforce to Yunnan, I generally only take 1 casualty there anyway.

    2 Submarines vs the Destroyer/Transport in SZ 106 and ignore the British Cruiser would probably be the way I go.  I want SZ 110, 111 and 112 and I want a pair of fighters in S. Italy just in case I want to scramble. (I want to force England to consider them before attack.  Most British players seem to be giving up on the Adriatic Sea Battle so they can pummel the Destroyer in SZ 96 and escape.  If you dont put the German fighters there, they try to pull a hat trick and get all three Sea Zones.)

    The Chinese can retake Yunnan though?

    Yes, but they cannot stack it heavily.  So you just send all your fighters and bombers to retake it.  You dont need that much to take out India, India’s a cake walk if you do it early enough.


  • 2017 2016 '13 '12

    They can take it back and build there, but they probably don’t want to do that…

    Do you bring almost all your navy / transports to zea zone 36, and beef up land forces in Kwangsi?

    Then it gives you a choice to wipe out British / Anzac attempts to take the DEI (and wipe out their fleets) + the phillipines, and also gives yoou a choice of taking Yunnan once and for all?

    @Cmdr:

    2 Fighters from W. Germany to SZ 112 can make it to S. Italy.  They could go to SZ 110 and make it to S. Italy.

    @Omega1759:

    @Cmdr:

    I would not prefer extra infantry in Kwangsi.  Since I bring the lion’s share of Japan’s airforce to Yunnan, I generally only take 1 casualty there anyway.

    2 Submarines vs the Destroyer/Transport in SZ 106 and ignore the British Cruiser would probably be the way I go.  I want SZ 110, 111 and 112 and I want a pair of fighters in S. Italy just in case I want to scramble. (I want to force England to consider them before attack.  Most British players seem to be giving up on the Adriatic Sea Battle so they can pummel the Destroyer in SZ 96 and escape.  If you dont put the German fighters there, they try to pull a hat trick and get all three Sea Zones.)

    The Chinese can retake Yunnan though?

    Yes, but they cannot stack it heavily.  So you just send all your fighters and bombers to retake it.  You dont need that much to take out India, India’s a cake walk if you do it early enough.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    @mantlefan:

    @Cmdr:

    I have not bid in Alpha 3 yet.  It’s too early to know if anyone even needs a bid.

    I like to buy up to 3 submarine a round with Germany.  You quickly see Germany with 20-30 submarines around the board in Alpha 2.  In alpha 3 you dont even need that many to cripple the United States and England.

    OK… but is the breakdown I gave pretty much what you would do G1 without a bid, or would you do something different?

    Combat Moves:

    SZ 111:
    Defender: Destroyer, Battleship

    • Fighter from Norway
    • Strategic Bomber from Germany
    • Submarine from SZ 124
    • Submarine from SZ 118
    • Tactical Bomber from Germany

    –------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    SZ 110:
    Defender: Cruiser, Battleship

    • Submarine from SZ 108
    • Submarine from SZ 103
    • Fighter from Holland
    • 2 Fighters, 3 Tactical Bombers from W. Germany

    SZ 106:
    Defender: Destroyer, Transport

    • Submarine from SZ 117

    SZ 112:
    Defender: 2 Cruisers

    • Battleship, Cruiser from SZ 112
    • Tactical from Poland
    • Fighter from Hungary

    Those are my naval engagements.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Yes, I move down.  I also generally put a naval base in Hainan around turn 3 so that I can zoom back to SZ 6 if I have too.


  • 2017 2016 '13 '12

    @Cmdr:

    Yes, I move down.  I also generally put a naval base in Hainan around turn 3 so that I can zoom back to SZ 6 if I have too.

    Do you see the UK / Anzac plunder the DEI before your eyes or are they foolish enough to attack you?

    More importantly, if they don’t attack you, when do you attack them (and how do you get to india?)?


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    @Omega1759:

    @Cmdr:

    Yes, I move down.  I also generally put a naval base in Hainan around turn 3 so that I can zoom back to SZ 6 if I have too.

    Do you see the UK / Anzac plunder the DEI before your eyes or are they foolish enough to attack you?

    More importantly, if they don’t attack you, when do you attack them (and how do you get to india?)?

    Keep in mind when I was playing the allies last we (my local gaming group) were doing nothing but smack japan first campaigns.  In those situations, the Japanese get knocked back to SZ 6.  Instead of America taking the DEI we usually had Australia do it.

    I’ve since altered my approach with Japan and now go hot and heavy after India as hard as I can specifically because of the role it plays in smack japan first games.  It also serves as a splendid launching platform for the campaign in Australia.  Giving me two areas to build up fleet and splitting America’s attention.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Mantle, yes I buy a carrier with Germany.  No, SZ 106 is not dreadfully important but the battleships in SZ 110 and SZ 111 are.

    I also go with slightly worse for me, slightly better for them.  Hence why I pound SZ 110 and SZ 111 so hard.  You could easily draw off two aircraft from those battles and still have winning odds, and if you want them in S. Italy, you might have too jostle them a bit to get where you want.

    As I’ve said before, you can’t do everything every time.  That’s the standard Alpha 2 open and I see no reason to change it for Alpha 3.  I still want a German fleet in SZ 91 and I still want the British ships close to europe destroyed.  I still want France, Bulgaria, Finland and Yugoslavia.

    German goals: Moscow, St. Petersburg, Stalingrad, Cairo, Paris.
    Italian goals: Cairo, Stalingrad, Middle East, N. Africa

    Japanese goals:
    EITHER
    Moscow, Stalingrad
    OR
    Calcutta, Sydney, Hawaii

    Depending on which path I take this week.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    @mantlefan:

    @Cmdr:

    2 Fighters from W. Germany to SZ 112 can make it to S. Italy.  They could go to SZ 110 and make it to S. Italy.

    I am also wondering what gave you the impression that this would work. How many games have you done this in?

    Every Alpha 2 game where I put the fighters in S. Italy I had them go to SZ 112 instead of SZ 110/SZ 111 so they had the fuel to make it.  I’ve never had the British fleet survive round 1 except the destroyer/transport in SZ 109 and sometimes SZ 106.

    And no, my round 1 builds are 2 Transports, 1 Aircraft Carrier.  It puts the threat of sea lion in my opponent’s mind and I need the transports later anyway.  3 Transports are just enough that when they are in SZ 91 the Allies have to defend half the globe.


  • 2017 2016 '13 '12

    @Cmdr:

    @mantlefan:

    @Cmdr:

    2 Fighters from W. Germany to SZ 112 can make it to S. Italy.  They could go to SZ 110 and make it to S. Italy.

    I am also wondering what gave you the impression that this would work. How many games have you done this in?

    Every Alpha 2 game where I put the fighters in S. Italy I had them go to SZ 112 instead of SZ 110/SZ 111 so they had the fuel to make it.  I’ve never had the British fleet survive round 1 except the destroyer/transport in SZ 109 and sometimes SZ 106.

    And no, my round 1 builds are 2 Transports, 1 Aircraft Carrier.  It puts the threat of sea lion in my opponent’s mind and I need the transports later anyway.  3 Transports are just enough that when they are in SZ 91 the Allies have to defend half the globe.

    If the 2 fighters landing in S Italy go on 112, then the Slovak / Polish planes can’t go to 110, and you would be unable to attack these zones. I don’t think there is a way to wipe out the UK fleet and land in S. Italy at the same time.

    BTW: My new sequence of moves is this:

    Build Aircraft Carrier + 2 subs in zone 112
    Take 112 (1 cruiser, 1 sub and 1 battleship)
    Take 106 with 2 subs (117 / 118)
    Take 110 (against BB and Cruiser + 3 scramble) with 2 subs (103/ 108) +  1 Bomber + 3 tactical + 2 fighters (none of these to south Italy)
    Take France Turn 1 (4 infantry, 4 mec, 3 artillery, 5 tanks, 1 tactical)
    Take Normandy Turn 1 (Destroy fighter to help Italian Fleet) - 1 Infantry, 1 tank and 1 fighter, Attack with 3 infantry, 1 tactical, 3 fighters


  • 2017 2016 '13 '12

    @mantlefan:

    @Omega1759:

    @Cmdr:

    @mantlefan:

    @Cmdr:

    2 Fighters from W. Germany to SZ 112 can make it to S. Italy.  They could go to SZ 110 and make it to S. Italy.

    I am also wondering what gave you the impression that this would work. How many games have you done this in?

    Every Alpha 2 game where I put the fighters in S. Italy I had them go to SZ 112 instead of SZ 110/SZ 111 so they had the fuel to make it.  I’ve never had the British fleet survive round 1 except the destroyer/transport in SZ 109 and sometimes SZ 106.

    And no, my round 1 builds are 2 Transports, 1 Aircraft Carrier.  It puts the threat of sea lion in my opponent’s mind and I need the transports later anyway.  3 Transports are just enough that when they are in SZ 91 the Allies have to defend half the globe.

    If the 2 fighters landing in S Italy go on 112, then the Slovak / Polish planes can’t go to 110, and you would be unable to attack these zones. I don’t think there is a way to wipe out the UK fleet and land in S. Italy at the same time.

    BTW: My new sequence of moves is this:

    Build Aircraft Carrier + 2 subs in zone 112
    Take 112 (1 cruiser, 1 sub and 1 battleship)
    Take 106 with 2 subs (117 / 118)
    Take 110 (against BB and Cruiser + 3 scramble) with 2 subs (103/ 108) +  1 Bomber + 3 tactical + 2 fighters (none of these to south Italy)
    Take France Turn 1 (4 infantry, 4 mec, 3 artillery, 5 tanks, 1 tactical)
    Take Normandy Turn 1 (Destroy fighter to help Italian Fleet) - 1 Infantry, 1 tank and 1 fighter, Attack with 3 infantry, 1 tactical, 3 fighters

    if you adjust your moves to have the plane from slovakia fly straight to Italy, and remove 1 ftr from 110 and send it to 112, you cna do it, but you do have 1 less plane in 110 that way.

    Good point… So one fighter isn’t doing anything. The 110 is becoming close though!  I don’t think I’ve seen this move done in Jennifer’s game though.


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