The Missing Mechanized Unit: Assault Guns

After examination of many posts and various TD stats, here is my boosted up version for 3 different types of mechanized unit:

Self-Propelled Artillery
SPA A2D2M2C5
Can blitz when paired to a Tank or to a Mech Inf. (It is different from TD and SPG.)
Give +1A to 1 Inf or Mech Inf, when paired with. (Same as OOB Artillery unit.)

Self-Propelled Gun (higher defense value)
SPG A2D3M2C5
Can blitz when paired to a Tank.
On “1” hit rolled, it destroys any other ground unit before an Infantry (Art, Mech Inf, AAA, SPG, SPA, TD, Tk), if available, i.e. Inf are chosen last by SPG.

Tank Destroyer (lower defense value, higher cost)
TD A2D2M2C6
Can blitz when paired to a Tank.
On any hit, it destroys a mechanized unit (Mech Inf, SPG, SPA, TD, Tk) first.

Here is my revised version for a single type of Mobile Artillery unit (SPA / SPG /TD):

Mechanized Artillery (Assault Gun)
Attack: 2
Defense: 2
Move: 2
Cost: 5
Can blitz when paired to a Tank or to a Mech Inf.
Infantry Support: Give +1A to a paired Infantry or Mech Infantry
Tank Hunter: On a “1” rolled, it hits a mechanized unit (Mech Inf, Mech Art, Tank).
On a “1” rolled, it hits an armored unit (Tank or a Mech Art).

This unit will get both roles as Inf support & Tank Destroyer and have a limited blitzing capacity.
And because of these 3 capacities, the Tank Hunter ability should be reduced a little and get only the same blitz capacity as Mech Inf, I think.

@knp7765:

Tank destroyers and self propelled guns usually will have the same values for attack, defense, movement and cost. The difference will be in their respective special abilities:
Self Propelled Guns can boost Mechanized Infantry attack factor to 2 and can blitz when paired with a Mechanized Infantry unit.
Tank Destroyers do not boost other units, but on a roll of 1 they can target enemy armor units.

However, some will put SPGs at A 2 D 2 M 2 Cost 5. Cost is one more than regular artillery for extra movement.
and Tank Destroyers at A 2 D 3 M 2 Cost 6. Cost is one more than SPGs for higher defense and targeting ability.

I gave you a plus +1 on this my brother. I do mine differently, but I like how you think. I’m big on D6 and trying to make it work while keeping costs the same.

@ Baron You are a thinker when it comes to stats and I encourage you to post, but in all honesty we don’t all need to come to a consensus or a strict ruling on how custom pieces need to work. By all means keep sharing your ideas but let’s not try to nail down a single HR on every subject in regards to HRs and custom units. Thanks for sharing Baron.

@toblerone77:

@knp7765:

Tank destroyers and self propelled guns usually will have the same values for attack, defense, movement and cost. The difference will be in their respective special abilities:
Self Propelled Guns can boost Mechanized Infantry attack factor to 2 and can blitz when paired with a Mechanized Infantry unit.
Tank Destroyers do not boost other units, but on a roll of 1 they can target enemy armor units.

However, some will put SPGs at A 2 D 2 M 2 Cost 5. Cost is one more than regular artillery for extra movement.
and Tank Destroyers at A 2 D 3 M 2 Cost 6. Cost is one more than SPGs for higher defense and targeting ability.

I gave you a plus +1 on this my brother. I do mine differently, but I like how you think. I’m big on D6 and trying to make it work while keeping costs the same.

@ Baron You are a thinker when it comes to stats and I encourage you to post, but in all honesty we don’t all need to come to a consensus or a strict ruling on how custom pieces need to work. By all means keep sharing your ideas but let’s not try to nail down a single HR on every subject in regards to HRs and custom units. Thanks for sharing Baron.

Yeah, I still prefer D6 myself. I have tinkered with the idea of going to a D12 system because you do have so many more possibilities and can really give unique values to all sorts of different equipment. The problem is I would have to make up a whole new battle board. Also, I’m not sure that I want to add too many new units for fear of bogging down the game too much.
Also, another reason I am still kind of “married” do D6 is because I use the FMG Combat Dice. They look so cool and I just love them.

Has anyone else put in thought into a Mechanized AA Gun? I know there’s no piece for it but it’s a thought.

Ok, first of all, this has to be kept simple and not overly complex. So here’s my thoughts:
Tank Destroyer
Cost 5
Move 2
Attack 2
Defense 2
Cannot blitz.
On a roll of a 1 on attack or 2 on defense, the enemy player must select a Tank as a casualty. If he has no Tanks, he must select a Tank Destroyer as a casualty. If he has neither, he can select any other unit he wants. The Tank or Tank Destroyer selected as a casualty can still return fire.

How about attack at 3 defend at 2 and choose any land vehicle as its target on a roll of 1 for attack only. Cost 5 and can blitz.

@Yavid:

Has anyone else put in thought into a Mechanized AA Gun? I know there’s no piece for it but it’s a thought.

I use trucks that work essentially as a land transport. I suppose you could have towed AAA.

@SS:

How about attack at 3 defend at 2 and choose any land vehicle as its target on a roll of 1 for attack only. Cost 5 and can blitz.

I think tank destroyers were more of a defensive weapon – ie. laying in wait for attacking armor to come to it.
So I would think attack 2, defend 3 and the roll of 1 allows it to target when defending, although I think the targeting ability should be on attack and defense, but if I had to choose one I would choose defense first.

Ok. They were used more on defense than attack. Attack at 2 and defend at 3. Pick the land piece on a roll of 1 for attack and defend and blitzing because they were used on front lines too. So might have to change in my games do to being to strong on attack. Like barabossa game has them at ( 12d die ) attack at 7, defend at 5, pick piece on 2 or less on attack and defend and can blitz.

@toblerone77:

@knp7765:

Tank destroyers and self propelled guns usually will have the same values for attack, defense, movement and cost. The difference will be in their respective special abilities:
Self Propelled Guns can boost Mechanized Infantry attack factor to 2 and can blitz when paired with a Mechanized Infantry unit.
Tank Destroyers do not boost other units, but on a roll of 1 they can target enemy armor units.

However, some will put SPGs at A 2 D 2 M 2 Cost 5. Cost is one more than regular artillery for extra movement.
and Tank Destroyers at A 2 D 3 M 2 Cost 6. Cost is one more than SPGs for higher defense and targeting ability.

I gave you a plus +1 on this my brother. I do mine differently, but I like how you think. I’m big on D6 and trying to make it work while keeping costs the same.

@ Baron You are a thinker when it comes to stats and I encourage you to post, but in all honesty we don’t all need to come to a consensus or a strict ruling on how custom pieces need to work. By all means keep sharing your ideas but let’s not try to nail down a single HR on every subject in regards to HRs and custom units. Thanks for sharing Baron.

Don’t see on which post on this thread you base your assumptions.
Actually, the last one is clearly a summary of many ideas.

However, I was under the impression that there is an hint of a general agreement on SPA (above, it is name SPG but clearly related to artillery unit).
Mostly because the Knp7765 (an experienced poster which was answering my question) post and rise a +1.

Besides, the terminological confusion, I think most people would give a HBG SPA scuplt this stat:

will put SPGs at A 2 D 2 M 2 Cost 5. Cost is one more than regular artillery for extra movement.

Self Propelled Guns can boost Mechanized Infantry attack factor to 2 and can blitz when paired with a Mechanized Infantry unit.

The sole minor difference is to blitz or not to blitz (with a Mech Inf)?

About Tank Destroyer, it is clearly a brain-stormed unit in progress. There is a lot of variations.
Many seems to like the “1” rolled destroyed a specific unit (Armored or Mechanized).

However, this abilities doesn’t fit in AAA system as yours giving +1 A/D to Light Tank:

TD- A3/D1/M2/C5 can blitz with tank. Supports light tank +1. US tank doctrine was to use a combination of infantry to support tanks while tanks supported infantry. This is just the way I see TDs. The TDs covered the tanks due to their heavier firepower but their thin armor made them vulnerable to enemy tanks.

I must add that I also see why Knp7765’s TD is interesting:
TD frame have almost the same armor as Medium Tank. (Defense 3)
TD have a bigger gun but were not as maneuverable as Tank and have a support role as Artillery. (Offense 2)
TD have a defensive role of taking care of tank, tank hunter. (“1” rolled, hit a SPA/TD/Tk.)
The “1” rolled designated a specific target is a powerful defensive abilities. (higher cost than 5)
For all these reason, it make sense to give such stats:

Tank Destroyers at A 2 D 3 M 2 Cost 6. Cost is one more than SPGs for higher defense and targeting ability.

on a roll of 1 they can target enemy armor units

Baron, my only point was there are now two threads talking about this. I didn’t say that you shouldn’t post or what you are saying isn’t interesting. I was politely trying to point out that that people are all going to have differing ideas.

With all due respect, and I apologize if I’m taking it differently from your intent, your large amount of posts on the subject and additional thread seemed to suggest that you are aiming for a semi-official HR. I don’t have a problem with that either.

In my post you recently cited, I wish you would have highlighted the fact that I also complimented knp for his ideas but that I was using my units slightly differently.

If you took offense I apologize. I’ve been reading both threads with interest and have enjoyed everyone’s posts.

@SS:

Ok. They were used more on defense than attack. Attack at 2 and defend at 3. Pick the land piece on a roll of 1 for attack and defend and blitzing because they were used on front lines too. So might have to change in my games do to being to strong on attack. Like barabossa game has them at ( 12d die ) attack at 7, defend at 5, pick piece on 2 or less on attack and defend and can blitz.

Well If we convert these stats to D6 attack would be D6@3.5  defense would be D6@2.5, I still resist using D12 but the advantage is clear in that you can essentially roll 1/2 PIPs in the A&A dice mechanic. I’m not saying “go with my stats”, but trying not to stray too much from OOB stats and cost I chose to give the TD a matched cost to SPA. Just IMO I see the TD as more as an offensive weapon, a lighter or medium tank but with a big gun.

However, looking at the stats you could put the TD in the “classic tank” cost bracket of 5 A3/D2/M2 and SPA A2/D2/M2/C5 SPA basically same as ART but can move another space.

Now The reason I gave TDs the stats A3/D1/M2/C5 is because I use light tanks @ A2/D1/M2/C4 these are offensively balanced against OOB MINF and OOB ART

Essentially in a 4IPC cost bracket light tanks give mobility and offense. MINF give mobility and defense. OOB art give a balance of defense and offense at the cost of mobility.

Paying one more IPC (5 price bracket) the TD gives firepower and mobility (A3/D1*/M2) but at a cost of lighter defensive capability. The SPA gives a balance of firepower, defense, and the addition flexibility of supporting infantry. *Defensive score of 1 if using light tanks.

Finally in my HRs I allow anything that land-based that move two spaces (other than empty transport trucks) to blitz.

This post was just how I reasoned my cost/combat structure given the pieces I intend to use with a D6 system.

Ya Tob I here ya. In my 3 39 global games, we do have all the advance pieces that you are talking about and more pieces with them all being D12 games. Just makin some suggestions to pieces and converting them to D6’s.

@SS:

Ya Tob I here ya. In my 3 39 global games, we do have all the advance pieces that you are talking about and more pieces with them all being D12 games. Just makin some suggestions to pieces and converting them to D6’s.

I think it’s do-able task. I know there’s quite a few of us using them to varying degrees. Tall Paul has got a huge project for his custom set up he HAS to use D12 dice if I understand his system correctly. Not only that he’s had to paint and decal because he’ll have one type of sculpt that has multiple variants.

My personal project/variant I’m slugging through uses all kinds of stuff and trying to get them in harmony while making it worth while to the people playing it is a chore. All-in-all it’s still pretty fun.

The cool thing is Coach and HBG really seem to get it with the stuff they’re bringing into the game for us guys who like to have custom games and rules.

Personally I like to see what everyone’s doing with their custom sculpts as they come out. So it’s all good to me.

@toblerone77:

Baron, my only point was there are now two threads talking about this. I didn’t say that you shouldn’t post or what you are saying isn’t interesting. I was politely trying to point out that that people are all going to have differing ideas.

With all due respect, and I apologize if I’m taking it differently from your intent, your large amount of posts on the subject and additional thread seemed to suggest that you are aiming for a semi-official HR. I don’t have a problem with that either.

In my post you recently cited, I wish you would have highlighted the fact that I also complimented knp for his ideas but that I was using my units slightly differently.

If you took offense I apologize. I’ve been reading both threads with interest and have enjoyed everyone’s posts.

Don’t know how my other thread could become a semi-official HR…
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32892.msg1243157#msg1243157
I have no kind of authority to such a claim.

It was a more limited paradigm inside a simplified way of giving stats and considering those units: Mechanized (MI/ SPA/ SPG-TD) vs Tank (Light/ Medium/ Advance/ Heavy) units, which I hoped anyone could add more specific input, such as CWO give an helping hand in better naming these categories.

In my post you recently cited, I wish you would have highlighted the fact that I also complimented knp for his ideas but that I was using my units slightly differently.

Sorry, no pun intended.

I’ve been reading both threads with interest and have enjoyed everyone’s posts.

Same for me.
I will comment yours in my next post.

@toblerone77:

@SS:

Ok. They were used more on defense than attack. Attack at 2 and defend at 3. Pick the land piece on a roll of 1 for attack and defend and blitzing because they were used on front lines too. So might have to change in my games do to being to strong on attack. Like barabossa game has them at ( 12d die ) attack at 7, defend at 5, pick piece on 2 or less on attack and defend and can blitz.

Well If we convert these stats to D6 attack would be D6@3.5  defense would be D6@2.5, I still resist using D12 but the advantage is clear in that you can essentially roll 1/2 PIPs in the A&A dice mechanic. I’m not saying “go with my stats”, but trying not to stray too much from OOB stats and cost I chose to give the TD a matched cost to SPA. Just IMO I see the TD as more as an offensive weapon, a lighter or medium tank but with a big gun.

However, looking at the stats you could put the TD in the “classic tank” cost bracket of 5 A3/D2/M2 and SPA A2/D2/M2/C5 SPA basically same as ART but can move another space.

Now The reason I gave TDs the stats A3/D1/M2/C5 is because I use light tanks @ A2/D1/M2/C4 these are offensively balanced against OOB MINF and OOB ART

Essentially in a 4IPC cost bracket light tanks give mobility and offense. MINF give mobility and defense. OOB art give a balance of defense and offense at the cost of mobility.

Paying one more IPC (5 price bracket) the TD gives firepower and mobility (A3/D1/M2) but at a cost of lighter defensive capability. The SPA gives a balance of firepower, defense, and the addition flexibility of supporting infantry. Defensive score of 1 if using light tanks.

Finally in my HRs I allow anything that land-based that move two spaces (other than empty transport trucks) to blitz.

This post was just how I reasoned my cost/combat structure given the pieces I intend to use with a D6 system.

When you say:

in my HRs I allow anything that land-based that move two spaces (other than empty transport trucks) to blitz.

are you including Mech Inf in itself?

Your way of seeing SPAs, is clearly within the most popular way of using them.

On the other part, your way of reasoning TD is original and needs to be emphasized.

Instead of just giving a specific value to TD in itself, you have a more larger scope.
It give a more specific tactical values to TD inside a set of other units:

Essentially in a 4IPC cost bracket light tanks give mobility and offense. MINF give mobility and defense. OOB art give a balance of defense and offense at the cost of mobility.

Light Tank A2D1M2C4 + TD A3D1M2C5 = A5+1D2M2C9
vs
Mech Inf A1D2M2C4 + SPA A2D2M2C5 = A3+1D4M2C9

Both paired units keep 8 A/D pts for 9 IPCs. Which seems at first glance quite balance.
Mech Inf+ SPA are a balance pairs on offense and defense: A4/D4
But clearly TD+LightTk are far more dangerous on offense: A6/D2

And your historical way of seeing TD units seems the exact opposite of Knp7765 TDs:
@knp7765:

@SS:

How about attack at 3 defend at 2 and choose any land vehicle as its target on a roll of 1 for attack only. Cost 5 and can blitz.

I think tank destroyers were more of a defensive weapon – ie. laying in wait for attacking armor to come to it.
So I would think attack 2, defend 3 and the roll of 1 allows it to target when defending, although I think the targeting ability should be on attack and defense, but if I had to choose one I would choose defense first.

On an historical accuracy point, still don’t know which aspect should get the better hand to define more accuratly TD:
Bigger gun, often used as support for Light Tank and less armor than a Tank: A3D1
+1A when paired to Light Tank
Stay within OOB paradigm.
vs
Almost same armor than a Tank, but no turret which mean less offensive manoeuvrability: A2D3.
Or a A2D2 with some Tank Hunter ability mostly on defense. Or, as Knp7765 pointed, the Tank Hunter capacity, even on offense, is in itself a defensive capacity.  
But the “1” rolled targeting casualty of the Tank Hunter capacity is outside AAA paradigm rules.

This was my general analysis.

Now I want to rise a question of game balance and units optimization and specificity:
With such an offensive power A6 with 2 units,
the blitzing capacity
and the low cost: 4+5= 9 IPCs

It seems to me that Medium Tank becomes a non-sense buy.
2 MdTk get same A6 for 12 IPCs.
With LTk+TD you get an additionnal Inf for the same cost of 2 MdTk.
This means:
LTk+TD+Inf= A7D4C12, 3 hits vs 2MdTk A6D6C12, 2 hits

Because A&A gives an advantage to the attacker when it comes to where and how it chooses to attack: this combination of LTk and TD 2A3 moving 2 spaces seems powerful even if it cannot hold the conquered ground with a 2D1 as MdTk 2D3 (which is far less important than the first attacking assault).

I think it needs a little cost adjustment and/or A/D modif. to fix it.
Because, at 9 IPCs it should keep a 8 A/D pts total to be equal match to Mech Inf+ SPA.
Option A:
Maybe just giving TD A2D2M2C5, +1A to LTk when paired with.
So LTk+TD= A5D3M2C9

Option B:
Or rising the defense and cost of LTk A2D2M2C5.
So LTk + TD A3D1C5 = A6D3C10

These will keep the interesting tactical defence vs offence difference between these 2 paired units:
MI + SPA vs LTk + TD.
Option A) A4D4C9 vs A5D3C9
Option B) A4D4C9 vs A6D3C10

Here is the scaled progression of paired units moving at 2.

Based upon B) LTk A2D2M2C5 & TD A3D1M2C5  vs A) LTk A2D1M2C4 & TD A2D2M2C5

1 MInf +Art = A4D4C8M1
2 Mech Infs = A2D4C8
                                                 1 MI+ LTank = A3D3C8
                                                 2 LightTanks = A4D2C8
1 MI+ LTank = A3D4C9
1 MI+ TankD= A4D3C9               1 MI+ TankD= A3D4C9
1 MInf+ SPA= A4D4C9                1 LTk + SPA = A4D3C9
                                                 1 LTk + TD = A5D3C9

2 LightTanks= A4D4C10
1 LTk+ SPA = A4D4C10
1 TD + SPA = A5D3C10                1 TD + SPA = A4D4C10
2 TankDests= A6D2C10                 2 TankDests= A4D4C10
1 TD + LTk = A6D3C10

1 SPA+MdTk= A5D5C11
1 LTk+MdTk= A5D5C11                 1 LTk+MdTk= A5D4C10
1 TD+MdTk = A6D4C11                1 TD+MdTk = A5D5C11

2 Med Tanks= A6D6C12

My preferred choice is option A, on the right.
Because, when a Tank is present you get the same offensive edge for a lower cost.
And keeps the best attacking value A6 to 2 Medium Tanks.

Well If somebody really wants to make it easy they can just take the HBG D12 stats and divide them by 2 and round up or down. There were also some older games on TripleA (before G40) that had stats for non-OOB units. The title was 1941 but has been removed from the DL list.

cost  move attack defend
SELF PROPELLED GUN 6 2   3     3
The target of self propelled gun is always tank.      (If there’s no more tank, this unit attack & defend at 2 against others units).

Infantry tank (Stug III) 4 1   2     2   (Infantry attack 2 in the first round of combat if mixed with a Stug).

@crusaderiv:

cost  move attack defend
SELF PROPELLED GUN 6 2  3    3
The target of self propelled gun is always tank.       (If there’s no more tank, this unit attack & defend at 2 against others units).

Infantry tank (Stug III) 4 1  2    2  (Infantry attack 2 in the first round of combat if mixed with a Stug).

Where is the difference between an Artillery unit and what you put as an Infantry tank?
Both move 1 space only!

I’m puzzled about your reference on STUG III because F and G model have a longer main gun and were used mainly as Tank Destroyer around 1942 and latter.

Is it possible that your “Infantry Tank” is just another name for a Self-Propelled Artillery (SPA) which many put at A2D2M2C5 and +1A to a paired Infantry?

I have just check on HBG sculpts, there is only 2 types which can fit both descriptions, and Stug IIIG is clearly a TD:
Hummel Self-Propelled Artillery
Stug IIIG Tank Destroyers

I’m under the impression that your Self-Propelled Gun is a Stug IIIG type.