• '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    They spend 10 years fighting the Chinese which themselves are in civil war and can’t even deal them a defeat. China is still binding children’s/girls feet in that time and they are probably the most backward nation and their army is nothing but peasants equipped with supplied rifles and limited means.  Attacking either UK, USA, or USSR on land is national suicide, as proven by every exploit sake Singapore and Philippines ( both of which were cut off and far from any relief force).

    Only when Japan was dealing with very limited and quick campaigns can they succeed. They simply were not modernized to how warfare on land warfare developed since WW1.

    Attacking Russia with the Kwangtung Army was silly and could gain them nothing in return but total failure.


  • I’m surprised that so many of you, if you were in the leadership of Japan in 1942, and were already at war with the U.K, U.S and China think it’s wise to invade Soviet Russia to help an ally that can not help you (except the handful of lost distance U-Boats to carry limited supplies)

    That’s suicide military planning.

  • '12

    I think after Pearl Harbour it was too late for the Japanese to do anything to change the inevitable.  When you piss of a country who can build in 1 month as many machine guns as you can during an entire 3.5 year war you are doomed.

    The hope was to knock out the US early and hope they sue for peace.  Yamamoto knew the US psyche and knew they were doomed after Pearl Harbour.  It should not have been rocket science to know the US would fight back.


  • However I have to agree with IL…suppose Stalin does nothing but delaying tactics and guerrilla warfare in the east while dealing with the Germans.  He has a continent sized landmass (superimpose Europe and/or Australia on top of Russia sometime - modern day Russia is more than twice the size of Australia) of essentially useless territory he can easily cede to the Japanese without losing anything he needs, and he could recover this territory at his convenience after defeating the Germans. The valuable territory in Soviet Russia was the Ukraine, the industrial west, the Caucasus, and the Urals.  Siberia and east had little value at the time despite the vast territory
    It’s an idea but you should read Staline biography and other book about him. It was not the kind of guys who give an inch.
    Anyway, if he doesn’t care about Asia. Why Khalin Gol? Why he accepted the cease of fire after that battle?

    I’m surprised that so many of you, if you were in the leadership of Japan in 1942, and were already at war with the U.K, U.S and China think it’s wise to invade Soviet Russia to help an ally that can not help you (except the handful of lost distance U-Boats to carry limited supplies)
    Funny…Well germany declared war to USA after pearl harbor and Roosevelt decided Germany first so what Hitler would have been able to make furthermore?
    Send SS panzer by ‘‘Pigeon voyageur’’?
    Seriously,in 1942, Japan was already in deep sh**.

  • '10

    @crusaderiv:

    However I have to agree with IL…suppose Stalin does nothing but delaying tactics and guerrilla warfare in the east while dealing with the Germans.  He has a continent sized landmass (superimpose Europe and/or Australia on top of Russia sometime - modern day Russia is more than twice the size of Australia) of essentially useless territory he can easily cede to the Japanese without losing anything he needs, and he could recover this territory at his convenience after defeating the Germans. The valuable territory in Soviet Russia was the Ukraine, the industrial west, the Caucasus, and the Urals.  Siberia and east had little value at the time despite the vast territory
    It’s an idea but you should read Staline biography and other book about him. It was not the kind of guys who give an inch.
    Anyway, if he doesn’t care about Asia. Why Khalin Gol? Why he accepted the cease of fire after that battle?

    I’m surprised that so many of you, if you were in the leadership of Japan in 1942, and were already at war with the U.K, U.S and China think it’s wise to invade Soviet Russia to help an ally that can not help you (except the handful of lost distance U-Boats to carry limited supplies)
    Funny…Well germany declared war to USA after pearl harbor and Roosevelt decided Germany first so what Hitler would have been able to make furthermore?
    Send SS panzer by ‘‘Pigeon voyageur’’?
    Seriously,in 1942, Japan was already in deep sh**.

    I agree with you.  Attacking the USSR would have been a foolish move.  I don’t think the Japanese were in that bad of shape in early 1942 however…  It was the loss at Midway and the debacle in the Solomons that began to turn the tide.  If these events have gone the other way, we would be talking about how the war ended in 1948!


  • They spend 10 years fighting the Chinese which themselves are in civil war and can’t even deal them a defeat. China is still binding children’s/girls feet in that time and they are probably the most backward nation and their army is nothing but peasants equipped with supplied rifles and limited means.  Attacking either UK, USA, or USSR on land is national suicide, as proven by every exploit sake Singapore and Philippines ( both of which were cut off and far from any relief force).

    You forgot to mention important elements.

    1. Between 1931 and 1941, the Sino-Japanese conflict was punctuated of cease of fire, signature of treaty.
      and sometimes, nothing happens on the front.
      It is only in 1941 when the conflict degenerated.

    2. Yes Chinese was badly equipped but they were millions has to fight and same for the partisans!. Japanese has of to face has tough soldiers.

    3. And there was difficulties of the ground as the mountains, river, bad weather and bad roads.

    And nevertheless, Japanese succeeded has to seize a great part of the North of China and the Chinese litoral with a poor high command and little collaboration between the army and the navy.  A Few country would have succeeded to take so much territory.
    Not bad if we think about that.

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    You forgot to mention important elements.

    1. Between 1931 and 1941, the Sino-Japanese conflict was punctuated of cease of fire, signature of treaty.
      and sometimes, nothing happens on the front. It is only in 1941 when the conflict degenerated.

    That was not mentioned because it didn’t happen.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War

    “Although the two countries had fought intermittently since 1931, total war started in earnest in 1937 and ended only with the surrender of Japan in 1945”

    1. Yes Chinese was badly equipped but they were millions has to fight and same for the partisans!. Japanese has of to face has tough soldiers.

    And all the while the Chinese nationalist where fighting the communists, while fighting the japanese with no armor or air force, except must latter.

    1. And there was difficulties of the ground as the mountains, river, bad weather and bad roads.

    And to think invading the USSR was EVER a consideration based on the terrain of China which was not even half as bad. At least China was populated and had roads. Soviet far east had nothing for any army to use to sustain itself as it invaded.

    The actual area of China that was captured is relatively small gains considering the length of the operation. Manchukuo fell without much bloodshed, so you can only count what the japanese took in Mainland China, which was a few ports and some area adjacent to Manchukuo….in 10 years…


  • _That was not mentioned because it didn’t happen.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War

    “Although the two countries had fought intermittently since 1931, total war started in earnest in 1937 and ended only with the surrender of Japan in 1945”_

    That’s what I mentionned… Not 10 years of total wars. China-japan conflit was not like the European front.
    You should read more than wikipedia.
    You’ll learn a lot of more thing! :evil:

    And to think invading the USSR was EVER a consideration based on the terrain of China which was not even half as bad. At least China was populated and had roads. Soviet far east had nothing for any army to use to sustain itself as it invaded.

    yeah right…China road was like autobahn??!! You must take a look of China geograophy. It’s not a walk on the park.
    China railway was a main objectif and it’s not because for tourist traveling.
    I agree that Soviest far east had nothing…except trans-siberian.
    But Japenese was nearer of their supplies (mandchukuo- korea) than soviets troop. 
    So if Japan combined their army and navy and air force it would have more difficult to russian troops to contain an invasion!

    I never mention that Japan wanted to invade all USSR territory. I only mentionned Vladisvotok and mandchoukuo bounderies.
    As for example, Hiltler plan was to stop to Arkangelsk-Astrakan not to send his panzer to kamchatka!!!

    The Russians (read Staline and his goverment) would have been in great difficulty if Moscow would have fallen in German hands.
    Staline knows that fact and it was his more fears… 
    He knows that’s it’s not necessary to conquer all parts of a country to put down a goverment.
    That’s why I think a combined Japan-Geman against Russia would have been the best Axis option.
    Allies wins because they joined their forces.

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    1. Between 1931 and 1941, the Sino-Japanese conflict was punctuated of cease of fire, signature of treaty.
      and sometimes, nothing happens on the front.
      It is only in 1941 when the conflict degenerated.

    “Although the two countries had fought intermittently since 1931, total war started in earnest in 1937 and ended only with the surrender of Japan in 1945”

    No what you said was not until 1941, but it was 1937-45, or 8 years.

    Japan fought China in earnest from 1937-1945 and didn’t make any significant gains. Manchukuo became a puppet government that supported the Japanese, so the minor gains they made in China are pretty pathetic for a foe that was fighting a civil war and had no significant armor, air power, etc.

    The roads of China are far better than anything in the Soviet Far East. The areas that Japan occupied in China have been used for thousands of years and compared to the rugged terrain of the Soviet Union with its one rail line to connect it back to civilization.

    Japans best army was in Kwangtung and it was dealt a blow by the Soviets. Their is nothing in the Historical record to indicate they could ever gain success fighting the Soviets because they were so backward.

    I only mentionned Vladisvotok and mandchoukuo bounderies

    Their is no evidence they had any capabilities to even secure an air machine for their bicycle divisions and other backward logistical capabilities on shoestring budgets. Japan attacking Russia after entering a war with UK, USA and the whole world is total national suicide. Its not a chance for victory, but certain demise faster than anything else they could have devised.

    Stalin could have easily left a token force to holds the japanese and still defeated the Germans. And if Japan broke thru into the dense forests and unimproved trails, it could easily be held until the Moscow issue dissipated. IN the Spring of 42 at the latest the Soviets could return ( instead of operation Mars) and invade Manchuokuo in 42 instead of 45 yielding the same result and stalling up what japan was sending to the Solomon Islands.

  • '17 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    The Russians (read Staline and his goverment) would have been in great difficulty if Moscow would have fallen in German hands.
    Staline knows that fact and it was his more fears…
    He knows that’s it’s not necessary to conquer all parts of a country to put down a goverment.
    That’s why I think a combined Japan-Geman against Russia would have been the best Axis option.
    Allies wins because they joined their forces.

    Their was no chance of that in Dec 41. Only until mid August 41 did they have that chance, but they sent all the good units to Kiev and lost the time to take Moscow. That was their only chance.

    Japan could not undertake any attack on USSR before it had already crippled the US fleet and they were not prepared to fast track an attack on Hawaii in August, just to play your axis and allies strategies with Germany. At that point they were still negotiating to return the oil shipments with US and the military solution was put on hold until that was resolved.

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