RR & 2HBS - Can Germany Take UK in T1??


  • I haven’t played Germany much, but I have noticed that it may be possible to take UK in T1. It seems possible, but is it plausible?
    If Russia fails to move their Barrets fleet or moves them to canada, there would only be a 2HBS and a transport in the north sea.
    First, can 2 subs and three fighters protect the loaded transport?
    Second, can 2 Inf., a bomber and 2 fighters take the UK away from the 2 Inf., 1 Armor, 2 Fighters and a bomber?

    This seems risky, but not impossible. Any thoughts?

    Also, Does this seem to be a sound “Basic” first round of action for Germany?
    Purchase 9 Inf & 1 Armor
    A. NE Atl Sub vs. US Transport in USA Atl.

    B. Germany Bomber vs. UK Transport in Labrador Sea (add fighter from W. Eur. if Russian fleet goes there.)

    C. 5 fighters from Fin/Nor, WEu, Ger, EEu & Ukr. (4 if fighter used in B above) and Baltic Fleet (Sub & Tran) vs. North Sea Fleet (MIN- UK 2HBS & Tran, MAX- UK + USSR Sub & Tran)

    D. 2 Men transported from SEu to Egypt along with Blitzing Lybian tank and inf. vs. UK Inf & Arm. 2HBS along to handle UK Sub in E. Med.

    E. Algeria Inf. to FWAf.

    F. FOR ONE ROUND ONLY (Used to consolidate forces)
    All forces from Fin/Nor, Ukraine, & EEu (9 Inf & 4 Armor), plus 2 Armor from Germany & 1 Armor from SEu into Karelia. Retreating to EEu after 1 round.

    Again, any comments. Thanks.
    Bladerunner

    [ This Message was edited by: BladeRunner on 2002-01-21 10:42 ]

    [ This Message was edited by: BladeRunner on 2002-01-21 10:43 ]

    [ This Message was edited by: BladeRunner on 2002-01-21 10:44 ]


  • interesting thought, maybe the sub in the atlantic can help out?


  • I have included the NE Atlantic Sub in my attack on the North Sea.

    The Sub and transport from the Baltic and the NE Atlantic Sub will strike the British Battleship and transport (Hopefully without Russian re-enforcements) with three fighters.

    If they can protect the transport, then can the two men, 2 fighters and a bomber overcome the British Bomber, 2 fighters, 2 men and 1 Armor? That’s the big question I guess.

  • '19 Moderator

    The naval Battle is no problem. The problem is your attack on GB has about 1 in 10 odds of success.

    I actually tried this once in a game. It failed but it ultimately led to success. After attacking Britain on the first round he got defensive and spent to much time building defenses. We were all fairly new at the time so he didn’t realize that if this plan fails Germany is probably done offensively for the rest of the game.


  • you’re just going to leave finland/norway for the allies? even if it is only 2 IPCs Germany needs all the cash it can get. That’s my opinion at least.


  • Probably. I am going for the Afrika Expansion. I could leave a man or two there, but I prefer to pull everyone back to E. Europe to hold what I have until Japan can hit russia from the east

    We are also looking at meeting in India ASAP

    If everything works out, we can cripple UK early


  • I second Dezrtfish’s view. UK navy will be gone, but taking the homeland would be tough.

    Also, what if Russia destroyed the German transport in the Baltic?


  • My group plays with Russia Restricted, so I would have first shot.

    I am very thankful for the input. I am re-considering some of my stratiges now. I hate to lose the tank in Finland Norway to a Russian press, but if I consolidate on Karlia’s door with everything else, I don’t see how Russia could do much about it. And, if I keep my transport out of the North Sea naval battle, I could transport in additional foot troops for defense. Thanks for helping me think through this.

    BladeRunner

  • '19 Moderator

    With Russia Restricted I useualy move the armor from Finland to Algeria in non combat after I destroy the Brish fleet.


  • I am considering leaving FIN/NOR alone to start. NOT do the Karila first strike. And leave the Baltic Transport out of the Naval Battle. Then, after the naval battle, ferry some infantry (2) over to FIN/NOR each turn for as long as I keep my transport afloat. If I keep massing troops in E. Europe and can spare the extra two troops to FIN/NOR each round, Russia will find it harder to spare the troops to take FIN/NOR or face an attack from E. Europe.


  • hmm, interesting idea. The transport probably won’t last more than a turn or two, but if you could pull it off the two groups pressuring Russia would make it kind of hard to launch even hit and fade assualts without fear of heavy counter-attacks.


  • Blade - it has about a one in 20 chance of suceeding completely. I would only risk it if you don’t really care about the current game or are playing someone very weak. If the russian player is very good he should eliminate both your subs and transport on his first turn. So even if you failed this attack you could probably still win the war. Also, you need to buy more than 1 tank on first turn, put some pressure on russia but dont’ forget about WE.


  • I think that Germany has enough tanks at the begining of the game to sustain the offensive for a couple of turns. It’s infantry where the germanys lack; if the russians launched counter-attacks against anything Germany took in their turn the amount of infantry left after the initial assualt would spell certain doom for all units present. I think your purchase looks good, perhaps an other transport would help though.


  • Can Germany take england in first turn?

    I have played quite a few times on the cd. And it can happend , but its not very likely.
    I quess it´s safe to say it is considered a very bad gambit to do.

    If you want to try it anyway you might as well go all the way and include 4-6 industrial rolls.

    why this ?! because if you lose the gambit you have lost the game and if not you most likely would win it.

    asuming the jet/sub axis advantages the chance is a little bigger that you get something usefull.

    usefull for this crazy variant would be heavy bombers or long range aircraft, both to increase odds that you might win the invasion on England.
    And if Germany get industrial tech. woe to the allies if you can survive being the first round production behind! (call off the gambit attack on england in that case and enjoy the game!!)

    now with 3 out of 5(6) tech advances increasing the gambits odds or just the axis odds I would recommend to include it if you “mess” with this crazy gambit. Don´t expect to much from it- actual keep away from it.

    Jondefool


  • After much deliberation, and many computer generated scenairos, I have given in to popular opinion and agree that there is no way to take UK on the 1st turn and win the war.
    If Germany was successful in it’s bid for the UK, it would be at the expense of everything else. This would put Germany in a bigger bind.
    Also, when I played this weekend, I went with most of the basic move I mentioned above. Germany wiped out the naval fleets with minimal losses and was able to move the Fin/Nor Tank to Africa for a quick takeover of that continent.
    The Axis actually won one as we danced on in the Red Square of Moscow while owning most, if not all of Europe, Asia & Africa.
    Of course, the Allies were back on top the next game.

    Win some, lose some. But always play again.


  • The only time I’ve seen even an early (not round 1) invasion of UK it was on the compute and an incredible fluke. AI was so stupid it attacked Finland w/ both USSR planes and lost them turn 1, attacked the Baltic fleet with only 1 FGTR on UK’s first move AND THE TR WON! That is, it not only survived, it actually shot down the FGTR!!! On rnd 1 I had attacked and destroyed the UK BB at Gibraltar and had there 1 BB 1 TR and 1 sub on rnd 2, with ALL planes (but 2 in S. Europe) in West Europe. UK had built 1 Carrier so I said “f*** it!” and threw in 2 TR with 4 INF, 3 FGTR and 1 BMBR vs. England, with 1BB 1 SUB and 2 FGTR to destroy the UK Carrier. I still only won w/ 1 INF, but USA couldn’t invade 'cuz of the fleet I had there. But, of course that was AI and would NEVER happen in real life.

    The only other way I’ve figured out to take UK before USSR is to agree w/ the Japan player to single out UK and take virtually ALL their land–then begin joint Strat. bombing of UK while Japan brings over a substantial fleet thru the Suez. Even though UK sees it coming, some good strat bombing plus crippling the Empire will make any purchases difficult. Launch a Jap airstrike against UK on the critical round and follow up with Germany.Better win with the 1st invasion though! I tried this once and would have won if I had remembered to have the German fighters land on my carrier that turn–w/ 2 more fighters we would’ve. I wish I had been high–that would’ve at least been an excuse!!! Oh well it was the closest my group ever came to a “UK first” Axis victory–and it took a lot longer than 1 round. I agree with the poster that said if you’re in such a gambling mood, buy research!

    Ozone27


  • that would be a nice idea,attacking uk first turn, but you forget when you do a landing attack with planes and a bomber dont uk get an AA attack at you it wouldt be to feasible doing that,becuase if you lose your planes and the attack go’s horrible wrong,you have no defence in eastern europe look at your army (germany) if you move all the forces you can to eastern europe sayin you move your ukraine force there aswell (thats what i normally do) and the look at russias.russia look in a good position to attack and really hurt germany and germany cant get reinforcements there first turn round so without the majaority of your planes there thus the lost of the extra man and tank attack on uk what could have easily been shiped over 2 men to eastern europe with the tank moving to kerelia and then e.europe would leave you extrmily exposed,russia could easily defeat your eastern europe force, you lose your bomber that would be good in tactical strikes, thats what would happen if it fails. but if you someonehpow manage to pull it of then you have more or less won uk dont seem to be a big part in the game but they are.with uk dead and russia dead it leaves the americans and leaves you and japan to roam asia freely america has to go all on fleet to counter japan fleet buildup and germany fleet build up.


  • Is it just me or are the AA guns in the computer version of A&A much more likely to roll 1’s than in real life?


  • hahahaha yeah more and lickely thats what i dont like about the pc-cdrom game, i havent got it i aint even got axis allies board game but my uncle has, so i play it with him,
    the computer normally cheats when playing the boardgame i hardly or anyone else gets a 1 maybe sometimes but unlikely


  • The odds as noted are absolutely terrible on this attack. And who doesn’t move at least 1 Russkie ship to the NSea?

    Even if you actually take it by some miracle with 1 guy left…there is still a decent chance for a US 1 liberation with her bomber clearing your tranny and 1 Arm vs 1 Inf. This is a very bad odds idea.

    Almost as bad is pumping MORE troops into Finland. Those guys are dead on either Rus 2 or US 2 and there is nothing that you can do about it. So why send 2 more guys into certain death?

    SUD


  • Well the greatest reason for taking a capital is the extra IPCs that come with it. Even if USA liberates UK, that doesn’t mean you’ll have to give back those 30 hard earned IPCs.


  • I disagree with all the nay sayers. I like the latteral thinking.I’ve played the board game for about 14 years now, yeah I’m a looser. but Ihave learned a few things, first the dice roll both ways, and second your opponents know all of your tricks that’s why the ardenne’s offensive was so scary in 44. rundstedt was a conservative and would never do it. the question wasn’t whether it was wise or not, but whether you could pull it off or not. and i think with my group it’s possible. subs pick thier victims, if your atlantic sub kocks out the battle ship 33% chance, then it can get aid from merely one other sub, and no planes- leaving the odds still inferior but definately more favorable. to quell all the “but russia will bla bla”, let them. axis and allies is a game of stragety, bait your enemy karelia is a great asset for russia, as they tie the germans up in three areas, yet god only gives them what… 3 tanks near europe? I’ve found that if russia is too clever falling back to europe, crippling the british and american fleets and diverting all my immediate attention to afrika 😄 makes up for any losses in europe, and ultimately makes me strong enough to challenge russia or usa on my terms. also don’t leave tanks or planes or an abundance of infantry on the front line, you want them to attack, but you only want to weaken them with your defenders, then when thier airplanes go home and thier tanks are sitting there ripe… then you hit them with all of your forces. then retreat your offensive forces. of course that assumes they won’t simply destroy your transport. danwatkins01@yahoo.com


  • Unlike SUD i have’nt played the game 14 years…only 6 :razz:

    I tested the Germany take UK 1st move, and its only worked 1 out of 10 time, approx. But the chance of success is ofcourse better if Russia dun move their fleet into UK SZ. (duuh)


  • well tha’s what i was getting at, geez 1 in 10 stinks, but typcally when i play germany, russia stacks karelia with a plastic mass of infantry. I haven’t found a real great way of breaking them of this, typically i back off europe to protect my flank while i swarm over afrika to build a diverse enouh army to crush them. but initially i would forgo the initial destruction of the british fleet and throw all my planes tanks and every available man at that wall, back then I thought karelia was the key, and it succeeded more than it failed. mostly because russia had no counter attack forces left and the allies were too busy trying to build complexes.
    to the point … I figured it had at least that same ammount of risk-reward but with less crippling consequenses if you fail.
    but it all hinges on russia forgetting to destroy the baltic fleet.
    oh and i only mentioned the 14 year thing so you’d realize that you are 8 years less of a looser than me. quit while you’re ahead!


  • Look, I think it’s possible if you and Japan can CRIPPLE UK’s economy by taking land and strategic bombing while building up. Not probable, just possible…

    Ozone27

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