Does taking Spain with USA spell doom for the Axis?


  • Well with America going heavy Atlantic, I’m looking for the Pacific win, so I won’t be evacuating China.

    That is what happens typically. The reason I stage 17 units, is I move one back out of air range.

    3 Armor + 5 Mech do not care about your 1 Infantry trying to stop them.  The blitzing will continue.

    The whole purpose of the “bait” is to draw the Manchurian units North and not south, cutting down mainland Asia from 32 units to 21 units which is enough to keep China alive until turn 7 or 8.

    Sure,  China will still be alive.  That’s not uncommon.  But they will be bottled up in one, very managable spot.  They definitely won’t be stopping my march to Calcutta.  India has to invest in its own land forces to survive, not hope that China will protect it.

    I like to think that if Japan does go North, they won’t be challenging the allies in the South Pacific. That may or may not be true

    Okay, fair enough.  This is sort of the crux of this issue.  That is to say, Japan will very much be challenging them.  In a big way, considering America won’t be putting much towards stopping them.

    Also, I am not trying to focus on the Pacific side of the board, since this topic is about Spain.
    I’m trying to review the merits of Spain as an allied objective turn 4.

    Okay, that’s more than fair; I understand that.
    My point is simply that, although the Allies may see benefits to this Spain-centric strat, they will probably falter on the other side of the world.  Any strat discussion needs to consider the repercussions on other theaters that will be had.  That’s all I’m trying to do.


  • @Alsch91:

    Well with America going heavy Atlantic, I’m looking for the Pacific win, so I won’t be evacuating China.
    That would be the best way to capitalize on the allies decision.

    That is what happens typically. The reason I stage 17 units, is I move one back out of air range.

    3 Armor + 5 Mech do not care about your 1 Infantry trying to stop them.  The blitzing will continue.
    Assuming you DOW on Russia, I’ll turn 12IPCs into 3 mech turn 3, and deploy them to Novosibirsk turn 4. May be able to land an air unit or other units with them based on board. We’ll see if that is needed.

    The whole purpose of the “bait” is to draw the Manchurian units North and not south, cutting down mainland Asia from 32 units to 21 units which is enough to keep China alive until turn 7 or 8.

    Sure,  China will still be alive.  That’s not uncommon.  But they will be bottled up in one, very managable spot.  They definitely won’t be stopping my march to Calcutta.  India has to invest in its own land forces to survive, not hope that China will protect it.
    We’ll I believe they can stack in Burma, forcing Japan to engage or take the sea route which may be contested.

    I like to think that if Japan does go North, they won’t be challenging the allies in the South Pacific. That may or may not be true

    Okay, fair enough.  This is sort of the crux of this issue.  That is to say, Japan will very much be challenging them.  In a big way, considering America won’t be putting much towards stopping them.
    The first 3-4 turns they likely won’t be, later they may be. Have to see board to see if it matters.

    Also, I am not trying to focus on the Pacific side of the board, since this topic is about Spain.
    I’m trying to review the merits of Spain as an allied objective turn 4.

    Okay, that’s more than fair; I understand that.
    My point is simply that, although the Allies may see benefits to this Spain-centric strat, they will probably falter on the other side of the world.  Any strat discussion needs to consider the repercussions on other theaters that will be had.  That’s all I’m trying to do.
    That is why I asked for comments. It is a fair concern, and it may prove this tactic unsound. Not claiming automatic success, just looking for another option. It may prove that this cannot be tried too early, only after America has spent 3 turns in the Pacific and then do a Spain turn 5 or 6….we’ll have to see.

    Responses in Maroon above, I have yet to master the art of point by point quoting.
    Thanks for your evaluation.

    I’m assuming Moscow will be a focus of the axis. I am pretty much resigned to the fact that they will be pressured to retreat to Moscow with or without the far east holdings. Japan will do a good job of Knocking down their income after their 5th turn collection. I further believe that Germany is the main threat to Moscow until late game.

    The question about Spain: Does it “speed” up the allies ability to make Moscow “irrelevant” or is Moscow always “relevant” because the USA cannot win on its own? Also, does it permit a trading of Moscow for Berlin, and if that occurs do the axis still have a chance of winning?


  • We’ll I believe they can stack in Burma, forcing Japan to engage or take the sea route which may be contested.

    Assuming China will be in a strong position like this, which is a very safe assumption, they probably won’t be in Burma.
    To survive long term against Japan, China has to sit somewhere in southern Chinese territories (probably Szechwan).  That’s the only way they can continually trade with Japan and achieve their NO.  Otherwise Japan can sweep in from the north and cut the road, simply by taking Szechwan.  In addition, China can’t build in Burma, so any Chinese infantry there would have to be moved there.  I know I’ve fixated on this a lot, but I’m saying that even if Japan attacks and pushes into Russia, they will still be a force to be reckoned with to India.

    Getting back to your topic -

    I’m assuming Moscow will be a focus of the axis. I am pretty much resigned to the fact that they will be pressured to retreat to Moscow with or without the far east holdings.

    Absolutely, particularly if Russia is sending resources (mechs/planes) to the East.  Germany will basically have free reign to march right up to Moscow.  Actually taking Moscow will take a bit longer, but the trip there will be fast.

    The question about Spain: Does it “speed” up the allies ability to make Moscow “irrelevant” or is Moscow always “relevant” because the USA cannot win on its own?

    Moscow is always relevant.  That struggle decides most games, and is important in all of them.  And with Spain, it may help the Allies, as you’ve said.  It does make actually establishing European landings faster (no need for quite as much naval dominance as in the Channel).  However, Germany won’t let you just roll over Western Europe.  It will take some resources from Russia, but Germany does not need 100% to take down Russia, if it plays smart.  A relatively light infantry force in France enables Germany to repond to the Allies taking Normandy or Southern France.  After their initial invasion forces are removed, the Western front will boil down into an war of attrition in that region.  
    Germany can’t win if America is focusing on it, you’re right.  BUT, Germany does take much longer to lose than Japan does.  As a land-based nation, Germany can turtle very effectively.  Italy will take part as well, having more freedom in the Middle East/Egypt, because America/UK didn’t focus on it before Germany.

    In addition, Russia has a third front to consider, as there is a Turkish army steaming in to the Caucasus.
    Ultimately Germany won’t win - America will simply sap too much from the East Front.
    However it probably won’t boil down to something so decisive as taking Moscow/Berlin.  Rather it would probably become Russia bottled up in Moscow, but indestructible.  At the same time, Germany will turtle up in West Europe against the Allies.  Who would actually win this fight is fairly irrelevant, simply because of how long it will take.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I believe the point is to sap the strength of Russia with Japan early (aka, before Germany declares war) and then finish it off with MI/Armor from Japan + Inf/Armor from Italy and ground forces from Germany (to physically take Moscow, Novgorod and Volgorod maybe Caucasus if you dont give it to Italy).

    If America is landing in Spain, I can bottle them up there pretty easily or invite them to liberate Paris and shoot themselves in the foot (note: no German or Italian objectives for holding Paris, so I dont HAVE to have it, not that it hurts to have the complex and 4 IPC for having it.)

    Once Russia is down, it’s a simple matter to push the Allies out of Spain again.  Yes, China, India and England are free in my perspective, but now that Russia is gone (with a significant German fleet remaining and a significant Japanese one) all that equipment can turn south to India while new German units can focus on Spain and new Japanese ones can focus on the Pacific again.


  • Thank you for the feedback, It will help me refine the specific plan I put together.

    I’ll let you know how it turns out.

    Looks like there are two or three styles to consider:

    1) Conservative (especially in the east):
    USA may want to focus on Japan early, then try Spain by turn 6. Specifically, I’m thinking first three productions would be needed in the Pacific, to tie in with a UK fleet and the use of an Anzac shuck to lock down Asia if that can get going by turn 7.

    Russia may want to cool its jets, and let Asia play out “naturally” and focus on defense since USA will be delayed. They will prepare for a round 4 assault on Turkey to do a hit and run in order to reduce that stack or prevent Italian naval passage through the straight.

    2) Hyper Aggressive: Risks early loss to Axis
    USA rushes Spain Earlier than round 4: This requires vacating UK on turn 1 to permit a USA DOW turn 2 after Germany seizes London.

    Since USA will be in war round 2, first production will be split, second will focus on Atlantic. Surrendering London does not force Germany to build as large of a navy, and Italy is not likely to be free to help as UK will have concentrated assets in Mediterranean. After 3 rounds of Atlantic, builds will begin against delaying Japan’s 6 cities.

    USSR will go defensive, India and Anzac will go Land as the Med navy is messing with Italy.

    USA will seize Portugal or Gibraltar first, then with second wave, move into Spain in force. If German is too prepared, stage 2 rounds in Portugal, then move larger force into Spain on third turn.

    3) Moderate strategy
    Spain on turn 4 as discussed, play test to see if viable, then move to 1 or 2 above to test results.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I honestly wish that America would be moved to play before Japan, as Japan really needs to determine what their strategy is after they see what America is doing, but Larry said no go.

    I see the following for Japan:

    1)  Russia and help Germany get 8 Victory Cities
    2)  Turtle and wait for Germany to get 8 Victory Cities
    3)  China into Russia again to help Germany get 8 Victory Cities
    4)  India (probably timed to coincide with Sea Lion to remove the entire British power)
    5)  Australia + SE Pacific
    6)  Kill America First (requires a major investment from Germany and a blind America)


  • I’ve always wanted to fight someone who would stack in Amur and the Spain thing sounds fun too. If you want a challenge right now James, I am up for it.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Spain just doesnt sound effective because of the moving through Turkey thing.


  • Jen -
    The issue I see with that kind of turn order change is that the Allies are the reactive power, not the Axis.  Just like UK’s every action, particularly early game, is entirely based on what Germany does, Japan-American has the same sort of relationiship.  Japan has the initiative and freedom, while America has the ability to react to their moves.  It seems to me that that relationship is fundamental to the Axis-Allies dynamic.


  • @Kobu:

    I’ve always wanted to fight someone who would stack in Amur and the Spain thing sounds fun too. If you want a challenge right now James, I am up for it.

    I’ll give it a whirl, but I am new to forum games, so you’ll likely need some patience. I can post moves every other day I believe. Do you want to create the game, and play Germany, then I’ll see if I can load the map and post my moves as well. Abattlemap is what I have, and I believe I know how to roll dice. This way, the others can watch the play and see how to respond.

    I will say, its a bit of a stretch since you know what I am planning. Probably not advisable since you will likely prepare from the get go. I’ll test this idea, but I won’t let you know if I’ll do the aggressive, conservative or moderate approach.

    Oh, well, if it works after you know what I am going to do, then it has merit.

    Here is a sample of the Abattlemap if I can load this right, I’ll also need to learn how to update the various boxes.

    sample.AAM


  • There’s not much Axis can do in anticipation in my opinion. I’ll have Germany done tonight and PM you. I’ll need scramble orders for the attack.


  • @Kobu:

    There’s not much Axis can do in anticipation in my opinion. I’ll have Germany done tonight and PM you. I’ll need scramble orders for the attack.

    Well, if you send in enough to clear in one round, I won’t scramble….the only place I would might be sz 109.
    If this helps, as long as there are more than 4 pieces in 110 and 111 I’ll keep my planes on land.

    3 or 4 I will have to consider. Also if you are hitting London to clear planes, and there is a sea battle to escape too, thats a good time to scramble as well 🙂


  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @Alsch91:

    Jen -
    The issue I see with that kind of turn order change is that the Allies are the reactive power, not the Axis.  Just like UK’s every action, particularly early game, is entirely based on what Germany does, Japan-American has the same sort of relationiship.  Japan has the initiative and freedom, while America has the ability to react to their moves.  It seems to me that that relationship is fundamental to the Axis-Allies dynamic.

    Agreed, in part.  My thoughts were thus:

    1)  America would not be able to declare war until Round 4, otherwise, the turn order would screw up the balance of power as it currently stands.

    2)  It’s already a pain in the butt to run 5 allied nations online. (America, China, England, India (which literally is part of England, but realistically feels like a seperate power) and Australia.)


  • 1 - I understand that, but my original point remains valid, I think.

    2 - I say this lovingly, as I feel the same way sometimes:
    Suck it up, Princess.  :lol:


  • Nice thread James!!! 🙂

    I’ve thought about an Allied Spain gambit for a while.  I believe if the Allies can somehow get Turkey and Spain it could work.  I definitely think that Spain can’t be taken early- I think its a late game tactic when the Germans press into Russia and leave France/Italy open- Spain maybe be a necessity to stop the VC win and gain an advantage.

    I think a Spain gambit is tough, but someone is gonna figure a way to pull it off in certain situations.  Maybe you’ll be the one- keep thinking. 🙂

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