• really??? even if germ takes the capital, you still think w usa could hold out against japan, if they’re pumping everything into taking it??

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    @thatonekid:

    really??? even if germ takes the capital, you still think w usa could hold out against japan, if they’re pumping everything into taking it??

    I just did it.  I got suckered by a German invasion I didnt see coming, liberated it that round and I am STILL ripping Japan apart with the American fleet.


  • Well, I feel like I am hijacking this thread by doing this, BUT since Jen says there is no way to take W. US, much less the entire US, try chewing on this:

    We all know that Germany can finish with, at minimum, a loaded carrier, battleship, cruiser, destroyer, sub, and ten transports at the end of G2 in sz 112, right? [Carrier, destroyer, sub purchased G1. Nine transports purchased G2]. And, since everyone reading should be somewhat familiar with Sealion, they know that almost all of the UK fleet can be wiped out. So, I am not going to go into detail on the German part of this equation. On G3, the entire German fleet will sail to sz 91 and offload into Gibraltar and/or Morocco.

    Now, about those Japanese……
    J1, buy three transports and save 5ipc

    Combat:
    1 inf into Chahar
    1inf into Anhwe
    2 inf into Hunnan with planes from Kiangsu and strategic bombers from Japan.
    Ignore Yunnan.

    Noncombat movement:
    Loaded carrier and destroyer in sz 33 moves to sz 27.
    Everything in sz 6 moves to sz 9 with one inf and one tank on the transport (battleship, two loaded carriers with four fighters, cruiser, two destroyers, sub, and transport).
    Everything in sz 19 and 20 moves to sz 6 and transports back with it two artillery (battleship, cruiser, destroyer, sub, two transports).
    I’m not hiding what I am doing here, so all planes not on the carriers move to Japan, except for the four that attacked Hunnan. They go to Kiangsu which will have infantry that remain there. Units in Manchuria move to Korea. Artillery from Jehol moves to Manchuria.

    Place three transports in Japan.

    Japan should collect 29+10+ 5 it saved =44

    J2, buy six transports save 2 ipc.

    Combat…who cares as long as Britain/ANZAC hasn’t declare war. Even if they did, just use your planes in Japan to clear any possible units that could sink your purchased transports.

    Noncombat movements:
    SZ 27 ships (Loaded carrier and destroyer) moves to sz 64.
    SZ 9 ships move to sz 11 (battleship, two loaded carriers with four fighters, cruiser, two destroyers, sub, transport loaded with inf and tank.).
    SZ 6 ships move to sz 1 (battleship, cruiser, destroyer, sub, 5 transports with 5 inf, four artillery, one mech)
    All planes not on carriers are now on Japan.

    Place six transports in sz 6. Now, at this point, if there was something that was threatening sz 6 to begin with that I couldn’t get to and kill, I could always leave a few of my ships that went to sz 1behind. The US can’t attack them yet since they are still neutral and, being in sz 1, they are way out of the reach of anything I know of that the UK could send after them. It really doesn’t matter too much, because if the US throws out a bunch of blockers on US 2, I would clear them and use the six transports in sz 6 during noncombat movement on J3 because……

    Place six transports in sz 6.

    Collect income: 26 (I’ll be generous and say they only have starting income) = 10 ipc NO + 2 ipc saved =38 ipc

    GERMANY round 3,
    German fleet [loaded carrier, battleship, cruiser, destroyer, sub, and ten transports] moves to sz 91 and lands 10 inf, eight tanks, two artillery into Gibraltar or Morocco. Also, I think (but I am not positive) that I would put the remainder of the German air force in Gibraltar.

    JAPAN round 3,

    Purchase…not sure at this point. Transports if they can be protected [of course this depends what the US/UK/ANZAC did in its first two turns]. If they wouldn’t survive, strategic bombers. If troops are needed for defense, then 10 inf…tough to tell for sure.

    COMBAT
    Kind of depends on where the US fleet is and how big it is. I have a direct threat to the West Coast with my entire fleet and six loaded transports. If they under defended sz 10, I would take W. US. This is not too likely, so I’ll go with what I anticipate the most likely scenario to be:
    US is stacked in sz 10 to defend W. US. If they bought fleet the first two turns, I most likely don’t attack it either. If I can afford to split up my fleet a bit I would use my two planes on the carrier in SZ 64 to sink the cruiser and transport in sz 101. If that is not possible, I would move my one loaded transport from sz 11 to sz 64 and take Panama. If there were any
    ships in sz 1, I would clear them and move my five transports from sz 9 to sz 1 and offload one transport (one inf and one mech) into Alaska. The other four unload into British Columbia (four inf and four art) into British Columbia.
    If by some chance something was blocking in sz 7 or sz 8, I would clear them also.

    NONCOMBAT:
    All warships move to sz 11.
    Six transports in sz 6 can now move to sz 1 and offload nine infantry, two artillery, and one aa gun (he, he, he) into British Columbia.

    For the sake of argument, I am going to speculate that I couldn’t attack sz 101 with my fighter and tac from sz 64. They were needed to join up with the rest of my fleet for defense in sz 11 which now has all the Japanese war ships (two battleships, two cruisers, four destroyers, two subs, three carriers, five fighters, one tac).

    So, at the end of J3:
    Alaska: Japanese with one inf and one mech
    British Columbia: Japanese with 13 inf, six artillery, and one aa gun
    Panama: Japanese with one inf and one tank
    SZ 11 (blocking any US ships from moving to the Atlantic) has two battleships, two cruisers, four destroyers, two subs, three carriers, five fighters, one tac

    COLLECT INCOME
    Not 100% sure. China, UK, and ANZAC have only had two turns so far, so they could have take some stuff. But, Japan made some up by taking Alaska, British Columbia, and Panama. However, they collect no national advantage. So, I’ll just call it somewhere around 26.

    I’m going to be a little bit glib here, but to all of you Kill America first naysayers, what does the US do now?Huh? Germany is sitting in sz 91 with a carrier, two fighters, battleship, cruiser, destroyer, sub, and ten loaded transports. This directly threatens Washington. Japan has its entire fleet of warships in SZ 11 blocking any ships moving to the Atlantic from the Pacific. British Columbia has 13 infantry, six artillery, and an aa gun bordering the W. US. What does the US choose to do?HuhHuhHuh
    As a hypothetical, let us say they stacked Washington enough to save it. On G4, Germany could land 20 ground units (10 inf, eight tanks, two artillery) into C. US instead and downgrade its complex. Now you may say, “But hey, the US could’ve built in sz 101 on US 1 and US 2!” Really? Japan moved its entire fleet off of the W. US in sz 9 and sz 11 and you are going to tell me that on US2, with the German fleet still in sz 112 that you would be building in sz 101? I doubt that. Most players will be building in sz 10 or (less likely) ground units for defense.

    Now, it is J4 and Japan could take W. US (I am assuming all of my transports are dead for the sake of argument since I didn’t cover them) with all of my units from British Columbia and six planes attacking. Then in noncombat, I would have the opportunity to land my surviving carrier planes in C. US to defend the German position. Also, the remainder of my entire Japanese air force would fly to British Columbia from Japan (yes, this is five movements). Hopefully Japan was able to buy a few strategic bombers on J3 because now that my entire air force is in North America, I can strategic bomb Washington. My planes should still vastly outnumber his, so bring on any puny intercepting US fighters!  :evil: :evil: :evil:
    Ohh, I forgot to mention I would most likely build a minor complex in Alaska this round (J4). So, even if the US retakes C US, I am still making six units a turn in N. America.

    Other odds and ends I’ve been thinking about.

    Can I somehow get Mexico on J4 so that a complex can be built there too?

    One less German artillery and instead carry an aa gun?

    If I flew my German planes to Gibraltar on G3 like I am considering, AND if Japan still held Panama, I would land them their. This is part of the reason I would see if I could somehow get the starting German transport to sz 91 on G2. This way on G3, it could move to sz89 and take Southwest Mexico and shield Panama from a blitzing recapture. Also, if Japan would be able to keep Panama, the entire Japanese fleet could sail from sz 11 to 64 if needed for an unknown reason.

    What are the US purchases? This is hard to know for sure, but since Japan showed its hand on J1, I would speculate US1 and US2 would be naval build in the Pacific. I would be hesitant to attack sz 10 if they amassed their starting fleet plus purchases and air force there. Now, on US 3 they are at war, so their complexes are upgraded to majors, BUT, with only 52 ipc, what do they build??? Japan already has 23 ground units in N. America and Germany will land 20 more before US 4 even happens. I speculate the US would most likely make a max defense build. That would mean, at most, 17 units built US3. They start with 11 ground units and 7 planes in N. America. If they bought all naval on US 1 and US2 that would mean a total of 35 units to defend N. America on G4 and J4. Even if they purchase all ground units on US 1 and US2, that would only add 18 more units for a total of 53. How realistic is it that they would build all ground units on US1 and US2? Japan would have captured the W. US on J3 if they did that.

    Wait, wait, wait, what about the US juggernaught of an economy? Well, the continental bonus would be gone, they don’t own 5 of 7 islands, they don’t get the bonus with Alaska, and they don’t get the bonus with Panama (well, maybe this one. They could POSSIBLY expend units to take this, but would they really seeing everything against them? They do get the Philippines NO for +5. But they lost W. US. Even if I say they retake C. US, they most likely would only be collecting 40 or just a few ipc more.

    Keep in mind that having lost W. US and C. US, they would be limited to building 10 units a turn. Even if they retake C. US, it is now a minor.

    What about Russia attacking into Germany??? Well, G3 and G4 can be all infantry. That would be enough to defend any initial onslaught from the Bear.

    ANYTHING Italy could do to help would be awesome. I haven’t planned anything significant for them because they are too variable. Any help by them would be icing on top of the cake.

    More thoughts….What if the US willingly gave up the W. US on US so max defend C. US and E. US. I don’t know what this would do. It is dependent on what they built previously I guess.

    Except for two German fighters on the carrier, I would be willing to sacrifice the entire German air force to clear the Atlantic of any potential blocking ships.

    Still more…what if Germany built a carrier an two transports on G1 instead of carrier, destroyer, and a sub?

    Another thing…

    Maybe I just take my whole darn fleet in sz 11 and kamikaze attack the US fleet in sz 10 on J3 if the battle would be even close. Then, if Germany had an attack on Washington, there would be way less punch in the US defense because it lost a lot of fighters defending sz 10.

    Just another variation on this plan.

    I had a few other tid bits floating around in my head, but my mind is racing so much right now I seem to be forgetting them at this moment.

    Is this a recipe for success? I don’t know for sure, but there would be one hell of a battle going on in North America and I feel reasonably confident this would kill the US 100% Pacific strategy . I could be wrong, but that is why I am throwing this out. This is a detailed plan, so check it out and let me know where I’m wrong.


  • Now, I have a few other tweaks or directions that this could go.  Germany could sail to sz 106 and land in Quebec for one.  Japan could peacefully sail to sz 1 on J3 and sit there.  Then with Germany threatening Washington, they might have a direct amphibious attack on the W. US on J4.  I have figured out some stuff Italy could do to help.  At this time, it is just hard to tell all of the different directions that this may go without trying the strategy out a few times since it would be dependent on what the Allies purchase.  I just don’t play frequently enough to try this out.  I wouldn’t mind playing abattlemap, but someone would have to show me.  That thing is totally foreign to me when I open the program up and try to figure out how to use it.

    No offense was meant to you Jen with the other post.  I was just trying to think of how to use the political rules and limitations placed on the US before they are at war against them.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I will test this.  However, I really don’t see this working, it assumes the Americans don’t act to counter it - I think.  Just first blush thoughts on it.

  • '22 '21 '16 '15

    Sorry that I came back to the topic but I think a surprising way to attack Russia is the way over Turkey.
    In G1 i get all 3 tt of France with Germany Yug and Fin. In this case, Italy can send his little armee from NItaly to Yug and conquer Greece with transports and Jets and take of course Bulgaria. Normally the brit. fleet is at Gibraltar at this point. Second round with Germany i buy mechs for berlin and paris and go with 3 tanks from yug to greece. The rest art and Inf from Yug goes to Romania.
    Italy takes now with all they can Turkey in Round 2. So Germany can blitz through and take Caucassus and Iraq. In the same Round Germany take Spain and eventually Sweden. So my opinion is that I can hold the eastern front with the Inf and arts from Germany and Italy (in Romania). And I get pressure on Russia from the South.
    What do you think about this strategy?
    It´s not complety thought to the end but I think this has some potential.
    Sorry for my bad english  :-)

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    First thought:  With all that stuff in SZ 9 (right next to W. USA) why isn’t america dumping 9 ground units a round into N. America?  It’s only 27 IPC and they can save up 25 more!  (or just get a lot more tanks).

    Shouldnt that be MORE than enough to stop Japan from taking America?


  • @Cmdr:

    First thought:  With all that stuff in SZ 9 (right next to W. USA) why isn’t america dumping 9 ground units a round into N. America?  It’s only 27 IPC and they can save up 25 more!  (or just get a lot more tanks).

    Shouldnt that be MORE than enough to stop Japan from taking America?

    True.  I do think that having the US buy 9 ground units on US 1 and 2 would be more than enough to stop the Axis from taking out the US first.   However, I mainly think of this as a counter to your 100% US Pacific strategy.  If the US buys ground units on US1 and 2, Japan should be able to sink the US starting fleet handily and be on it’s merry way.  No commitment needed from Germany or placing all those transports into N. America.

    However, if the US does build all Pacific naval on US 1 and US 2, I thought there would be a fighting chance that the Axis could take W. US and C. US or even E. US if the US doesn’t defend it properly.  Then with all the Japanese planes in N. America, a proper bombing campaign could help to defeat the US first.  Just an idea of course until someone tries it out though….


  • Jen,

    When you do try this out, could you link to the game or PM and let me know which one it is?  I would really like to follow it if possible to see it placed into action.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    Well, USA buys 9 ground units for 3 rounds + 1 airbase for C. USA, moves the fleet and aircover to E. USA/C. USA.  The starting fleet is more than saved, there’s nothing Germany is really going to do against 6 planes and boats but it does pull them out of the Pacific for the first round of American play.  Left over cash is building up so that when all those ICs are upgraded to Majors America can quickly dump small ships in the water.

    This puts the axis in an awkward position.  Now they either tie up their fleets threatening the US or they leave allowing the US to do exactly as it wanted to do.  Either event, it’s really only a matter of time before Japan is gone and America has those extra ground units it now does not need to build to move into Africa with. (by the end I generally have 24 transports shuttling 24 units a round into Africa.)


  • @Cmdr:

    This puts the axis in an awkward position.  Now they either tie up their fleets threatening the US or they leave allowing the US to do exactly as it wanted to do.  Either event, it’s really only a matter of time before Japan is gone and America has those extra ground units it now does not need to build to move into Africa with.

    Look, I readily admit that I don’t have a lot of experience doing or playing against your 100% US Pacific strategy.  But isn’t the strategy premised on time?  The US neuters Japan before the Euro-Axis get 8 VC?  If your fleet is now in sz 101 doesn’t it add an extra round (if not two) to get them where they need to be in the Pacific?  That wouldn’t help Japan at all?  The Germans could still do Sealion instead of moving to Gibraltar on G3.  How many people are honestly going to build ground units on US 1?

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    My question is does it hurt Japan MORE than it hurts America?  If the answer is yes, then it is in America’s best interests for you to do this.

    Why might it?

    • Less threat in teh South Pacific
    • No threat to NSW
    • No threat to India
    • Less threat in China
    • Less threat in Russia
    • Less income for Japan
    • More Income for India/Australia

    Maybe it is worth it?  Maybe not.  I only ask the questions.


  • All good questions, which is what I mostly have at this point too.  I am pretty much selling the house to bring all the pressure I can on the US to see if it can fall first.  If it can fall (or to a lesser extent be neutralized), then it may be worth it.

    US
    -loss of W. US (-10)
    -loss of continental continuity bonus (-10)
    -loss of Alaska (-2)
    -loss of Alaska bonus (-5)
    -loss of C. US (-12) (it better fall at least once initially or I don’t envision this being a worth while strategy) (or, possibly traded as dead zone for a few rounds?)
    -loss of Mexico bonus (-5)
    -no 5 of 7 island NO bonus (-5)

    Axis
    +W. US (+10)
    +Alaska (+2)
    +C US (+12)

    • strategic bombing of the only US major complex, Washington?
    • could build minor complex in Alaska (J4) and Mexico (J4 or J5)
    • UK Europe would lose some Canadian $
    • Germany can go to sz 101, 89 or 106 to land troops.
    • Italy could try to do can openers on the US…wouldn’t that be interesting to see?

    I have been thinking about what you said with the US buying nine ground units on US1 and US 2 once they see Japans opening move (I had thought that would be the weakness of this strategy too) and Japan could conceal its intentions a bit by purchasing three transports on J1 and moving everything to sz 6 instead of out towards the US.  Who would be buying ground units and moving the fleet towards Washington on US 1 if Japan’s naval units are in sz 6?  Japan would then wait to move out on J2.  Of course the US could buy nine ground units on US 2 and still move the fleet to Washington, but maybe that is enough of an opening for the Axis?  I don’t know.

    Again, I don’t exactly know how viable this is.  For sure, it benefits the Axis if the US buys naval units since they can be bypassed (for the most part) to land troops in North America.

    You at least can see how this has potential don’t you?  Jen, are you even interested in trying this out?

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    I will try it out.  It’s new, so who knows, it might work, it might fail.  “They charged valiantly!”  “Yes, sergeant, and they died valiantly!”


  • We got this to work in one of our games, but it was using OOB rules. You know, way, way back. Italy got in on the action too; had them scoop up West Indies and Mexico, and used them to harass Central America and Eastern America to pave the way for Germans coming down out of Canada. Once the Japanese airforce got a foothold in Alaska, it didn’t go well for the US. I should note however that the US player did not see this coming, and was staging to counter Sealion, which left the Pacific a little open.

  • '18 '17 '16 '11 Moderator

    It is hard to tell whether or not a counter-Sea Lion (as you put it) helped or hurt America.  For one, all those ships had to have made Germany and Italy’s jobs harder, but on the other hand, that’s less ground units to push out the Japanese.

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