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Attacking Ussr as Germany



  • i was just looking at the board, and i just realized that you dont even need to attack russia to win the game. you can get all of the victory cities w/o attacking them. yeah, i know that your all thinking that its impossible to capture usa, but if you do a succesful sea lion, then uk is out of the game, and you can focus more on trying the immpossible goal of capturing washington. also, a sealion will allow italy to help you out a bit too. there wont be much interference in the Med. after germany does a sealion G3, they could swim over to quebec, and use that factory to keep pumping units into america. if this doesnt work, it would at least keep USA from spending in the pacific. russia probly will attack you, but if you turtle hard on your land, they wont be able to break through your front line. give feedback  😄 ty


  • Customizer

    Interesting thought.  One problem is that a lot of the German NOs are based on attacking Russia (Leningrad, Stalingrad, Moscow, Caucasus).  However, Germany also gets an NO for Sweeden, which should be easy to keep.  One for United Kingdom, and if you are planning a “fight Western Allies” strategy, you will probably end up doing Sealion and getting that one.  Also, there is another for 1 land unit in Egypt.  Your Italian buddies should be able to help you on that, espeically if you have done Sealion.  It should be relatively easy for them to get Egypt then and they can take one of your men down and land him on Egypt.

    As for Russia, there is also the NO where Germany gets 5 IPCs if not at war with the Soviet Union.  With this strategy, you will obviously get that NO for the first three rounds for sure, since you are moving the bulk of your hardware West and not attacking Russia.  After Round 4, Russia can declare war on Germany, however, if you have built up enough men along the border with Russia as well as fueling the war effort against UK and USA, since Russia starts out kind of weak they may decide that they simply don’t have enough firepower to take on all your men along the border yet.  In that case, Russia may decide NOT to declare war so Germany will keep getting that 5 IPC peace bonus for a while longer.

    It sounds like some possible strategy, but it won’t be easy.  Once USA is attacked by any Axis, or if any territory in North America is captured by the Axis, all their ICs become Major and they get all their NO money, which will bump them up to 82 IPCs each round, depending on what Japan is doing in the Pacific.  If Japan is also being aggressive toward the US, they can cost them 3 of those NOs (15 IPCs) plus possibly another 5 IPCs in territories (Philippines 2, Hawaii 1 and Alaska 2).  I could see it working, but Japan and Germany would have to work together AND keep the other Allies off their backs.  Germany would have to somehow make sure that UK was out of the picture and Russia is held off.  Japan would have some problems with ANZAC, India and China, and possibly Russia, so it would be hard for them to keep from losing too much territory while concentrating on the US.  I think if it didn’t happen in 2-3 rounds, it probably won’t happen.



  • i was thinking with the japanese, you could just turtle on the two mainland VC’s and focus on knocking out india or anzac. you could also take hawaii early, and keep shucking things to western us. if you turtle on the mainland VC’s you can focus more on building a big navy to counter the US, and make them sweat. it would be pretty difficult to defend both fronts, ya know? if germany captures the quebec G5, like i said, three units pumping into usa mainland every round would be pretty harsh, especially if you build 3 bombers, and SBR the shit out of the western us factory. this would force the us to spend money to repair, or be forced to not build navy.



  • Have you ever tried a G4 invasion of England?  If you want to see how close the egg is from breaking, try taking London G4 after 2 full loads of troops from the continent.  Now notice how easy it is for Russia to steam roll Europe.  In fact, the only thing stopping the Russians is your fleet bringing those troops back from England!  I don’t see where you’ll be getting the extra units to fight US while trying to stop the Red tide before it reaches Germany.

    Also when Russia takes 1 german territory, they get an additional 3ipcs.  That quickly adds up, and the paltry forces Italy can cobble together won’t even be enough to hold Yugoslavia when the Russians lunge.

    Europe is hard enough of an objective with all your troops added to the mix, if you send your army away you won’t be able to hold your capital let alone take on Russia.  I prefer to fight the Russians and occasionally add a dd or sub to the atlantic.  I like have excess subs so when US switches to Atlantic I have plenty of blockers ready.



  • @JimmyHat:

    Have you ever tried a G4 invasion of England?  If you want to see how close the egg is from breaking, try taking London G4 after 2 full loads of troops from the continent.  Now notice how easy it is for Russia to steam roll Europe.  In fact, the only thing stopping the Russians is your fleet bringing those troops back from England!  I don’t see where you’ll be getting the extra units to fight US while trying to stop the Red tide before it reaches Germany.

    Also when Russia takes 1 german territory, they get an additional 3ipcs.  That quickly adds up, and the paltry forces Italy can cobble together won’t even be enough to hold Yugoslavia when the Russians lunge.

    of course, you would have to take england G3. and you would also need to dedicate resources to building lots of infantry on the front line. if russia is played correctly, not all of their forces will be on the front line anyway to start. russia’s goal is pretty much “give up land, and keep the VC’s and factories.” it would be easy to turtle on the 3 counrties on the front line, especially if russia buys only inf. like a normal buy.

    oh and also, you cant use subs as blockers. it just cant be done.



  • Well we must play our russia’s differently.  I feel that if Germ is going Sealion, I then want to have more tanks then Germany does on the front lines.  So I usually buy inf/art R1, inf/art R2, inf/art/arm R3, inf/art/arm R4.  After that I try and stay above Germany in tanks.  This is so that I can lunge.  I also want to have a strong army, even if falling back.  Inf are only good for defense.

    If Russia cannot bring the fight to the Germans, then they are playing a passive game.  Willingly ceding initiative…not me!

    And obviously I meant dd’s block, subs cannot block a thing.  Just a typo.



  • interesting, i just feel that buying infantry whose combat values are 1/2 for 3(so 3 for 3) is better than tanks whose combat values are 3/3 (6 for 6). at least for russia, their main goal early in the game is too defend against germany, and if it looks like germ is gonna do a barbarossa by having all of their stuff on the front lines, its probly better to defend at first.



  • This is an interesting thought about Russia. I’ve always found in all the games I’ve played as Russia, that Russia is way stronger than it looks. I’ve played against people who don’t really know how to play as Russia, and I can easily defeat them. But when I play as Russia, I play to attack.

    Have you ever played for or against Russia where it attacks full force?



  • @thatonekid:

    interesting, i just feel that buying infantry whose combat values are 1/2 for 3(so 3 for 3) is better than tanks whose combat values are 3/3 (6 for 6). at least for russia, their main goal early in the game is too defend against germany, and if it looks like germ is gonna do a barbarossa by having all of their stuff on the front lines, its probly better to defend at first.

    While I normaly prefer a mixture of inf/art as Russia I would buy tanks if I smelled a Sea Lion coming.  If Germany does a bloody G3 Sea Lion there is a window for Russia to punch into Germany and get a lot of IPCs as well keep the war far from Moscow.  That being said without American intervention Germany can rebound against Russia with all the cash it will have from sacking London.  Now I have never tried a G4 Sea Lion or played against one.  My gut tells me it could be a heck of fight just to keep the Communists out of Berlin in that scenario.



  • the main point is, although russia may be able to gain some german ground, it wont really matter if the axis takes america, which, like i said before, would be pretty easy with japan knocking on their door in the pacific, and 3 units/turn coming to assault washington directly. also, italy can get a foothold in the mid-east, and help redirect the russian assault.


  • Customizer

    I think that if this plan works, and between Japan and Germany you end up taking USA out, then Germany should be able to go back and deal with Russia.  Yeah, Russia will be pretty strong with several rounds of building and they will probably take some German territory at first.  Once USA is out though, Germany can focus all it’s money into first holding Russia off then driving them back.  Once Germany is able to deal with the main Russian front armies that are doing all the damage, I don’t think that Russia will have as much in reserve to back up.  Meanwhile, Germany will be able to build a steady stream of armor and mechs that will steadily punch it’s way back into Russia thanks to all the money they will be getting from UK and USA.

    However, if something goes wrong and they can’t take Washington, eventually Russia will surround and take Berlin, swoop down and gobble up Rome, liberate Paris and London then poor Japan will be all alone.



  • This strategy won’t work. First of all, the US is strong enough to defend against Germany and Japan attacking it at once. If it needs to, it can build up a major defensive land force, capable of defeating anything the Germans or Japanese try to attack it with. The reason being is, as some folks have pointed out, while Germany and Japan are attacking the US, who is defending the German and Japanese IPC hexes from the Russians, Anzac, China and UK India? It won’t be long before your IPC base is toast and you start losing major territories. IF you’re able to beat the US, then the Allied player(s) are very weak! I just don’t see any scenario, even after a successful Sea Lion where the US falls, w/out the Germans & Japanese being steamrolled by the other Allied countries. The Axis would have to protect their IPC territories AND conquer the USA. I just don’t see this as being possible. Keep in mind, it’s easy to block SZ’s w/1 DD, making it difficult for the opposing player to make any headway.

    I believe, after a successful Sea Lion that the path to easiest resistance is attacking Russia, especially if the Japanese are also focused on this effort. You use a two prong attack, w/the help of the Japanese through China and Soviet Far East. And the Italians down south.

    Also, as some folks have pointed out on this thread, if you see on G2, Germany builds a bunch of transports, then Russia should IMMEDIATELY switch to offense and switch their builds from mostly infantry to mostly artillery and tanks. In the beginning, it is good for Russia to build mostly infantry but not ALL infantry. I believe this is a mistake. With 37 IPC’s a turn, I think it’s best to build about 9 Inf a turn. Then build Art, Mech & Tanks. By the time Germany attacks Russia, usually Turn 3 or Turn 4, Russia will have a nice sized attacking force. But, if the Russians are still building infantry, after the Germans have tipped their hand that they’re doing SeaLion, then you’ve made a HUGE mistake as Russia.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Yes, but while you’re taking out the US, the USSR is taking out you.



  • one of the big points is that, even if Russia steamrolls on the europe map, if japan and germany and italy team up to take out us, then the only ones defending the pacific are Uk, anzac, and china. forces easily dealt with by mighty japan. you only need to win on ONE board. and you only need ONE capital. so if germany builds all they can and sends it over to take out usa, it would TOTALLY be worth it to free up the japanese.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    I’ve yet to see USA be taken out.  I have seen the Americans lose their capitol and then, in the same game, still end up slaughtering Japan like an over fattened pig at market.



  • Something to keep in mind, the axis do not win for capturing captials, but the allies do.  If the axis are able to take US, Russia will take Germany.(its too far to bring your troops back…and your fleet…and your aircraft.)  If Russia takes Germany, I think they will take Italy too.

    So now its Japan against the minors and a huge Russia, and a large Axis prisoner of war camp on America.



  • japan against uk, anzac, and china wouldn’t be that hard. and the remainder of the german and italian forces could deal with russia until japan wins. and if japan takes western us, and has hawaii, japan, hong kong, shanghai, and the phillipenes, it wont even need to go after either of the other two capitals.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Yer dreamin if you think Japan is getting W. USA.



  • wanna play a game, i bet i have probly about a 40/60 chance of taking america by implementing this strategy. i cant play for a few days, but when i get back from this trip ill totally kick your __insert word here.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    I’ve seen E. USA go down, but never W. USA.  Even if E. USA goes down, I don’t see W. USA going down!



  • really??? even if germ takes the capital, you still think w usa could hold out against japan, if they’re pumping everything into taking it??


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    @thatonekid:

    really??? even if germ takes the capital, you still think w usa could hold out against japan, if they’re pumping everything into taking it??

    I just did it.  I got suckered by a German invasion I didnt see coming, liberated it that round and I am STILL ripping Japan apart with the American fleet.



  • Well, I feel like I am hijacking this thread by doing this, BUT since Jen says there is no way to take W. US, much less the entire US, try chewing on this:

    We all know that Germany can finish with, at minimum, a loaded carrier, battleship, cruiser, destroyer, sub, and ten transports at the end of G2 in sz 112, right? [Carrier, destroyer, sub purchased G1. Nine transports purchased G2]. And, since everyone reading should be somewhat familiar with Sealion, they know that almost all of the UK fleet can be wiped out. So, I am not going to go into detail on the German part of this equation. On G3, the entire German fleet will sail to sz 91 and offload into Gibraltar and/or Morocco.

    Now, about those Japanese……
    J1, buy three transports and save 5ipc

    Combat:
    1 inf into Chahar
    1inf into Anhwe
    2 inf into Hunnan with planes from Kiangsu and strategic bombers from Japan.
    Ignore Yunnan.

    Noncombat movement:
    Loaded carrier and destroyer in sz 33 moves to sz 27.
    Everything in sz 6 moves to sz 9 with one inf and one tank on the transport (battleship, two loaded carriers with four fighters, cruiser, two destroyers, sub, and transport).
    Everything in sz 19 and 20 moves to sz 6 and transports back with it two artillery (battleship, cruiser, destroyer, sub, two transports).
    I’m not hiding what I am doing here, so all planes not on the carriers move to Japan, except for the four that attacked Hunnan. They go to Kiangsu which will have infantry that remain there. Units in Manchuria move to Korea. Artillery from Jehol moves to Manchuria.

    Place three transports in Japan.

    Japan should collect 29+10+ 5 it saved =44

    J2, buy six transports save 2 ipc.

    Combat…who cares as long as Britain/ANZAC hasn’t declare war. Even if they did, just use your planes in Japan to clear any possible units that could sink your purchased transports.

    Noncombat movements:
    SZ 27 ships (Loaded carrier and destroyer) moves to sz 64.
    SZ 9 ships move to sz 11 (battleship, two loaded carriers with four fighters, cruiser, two destroyers, sub, transport loaded with inf and tank.).
    SZ 6 ships move to sz 1 (battleship, cruiser, destroyer, sub, 5 transports with 5 inf, four artillery, one mech)
    All planes not on carriers are now on Japan.

    Place six transports in sz 6. Now, at this point, if there was something that was threatening sz 6 to begin with that I couldn’t get to and kill, I could always leave a few of my ships that went to sz 1behind. The US can’t attack them yet since they are still neutral and, being in sz 1, they are way out of the reach of anything I know of that the UK could send after them. It really doesn’t matter too much, because if the US throws out a bunch of blockers on US 2, I would clear them and use the six transports in sz 6 during noncombat movement on J3 because……

    Place six transports in sz 6.

    Collect income: 26 (I’ll be generous and say they only have starting income) = 10 ipc NO + 2 ipc saved =38 ipc

    GERMANY round 3,
    German fleet [loaded carrier, battleship, cruiser, destroyer, sub, and ten transports] moves to sz 91 and lands 10 inf, eight tanks, two artillery into Gibraltar or Morocco. Also, I think (but I am not positive) that I would put the remainder of the German air force in Gibraltar.

    JAPAN round 3,

    Purchase…not sure at this point. Transports if they can be protected [of course this depends what the US/UK/ANZAC did in its first two turns]. If they wouldn’t survive, strategic bombers. If troops are needed for defense, then 10 inf…tough to tell for sure.

    COMBAT
    Kind of depends on where the US fleet is and how big it is. I have a direct threat to the West Coast with my entire fleet and six loaded transports. If they under defended sz 10, I would take W. US. This is not too likely, so I’ll go with what I anticipate the most likely scenario to be:
    US is stacked in sz 10 to defend W. US. If they bought fleet the first two turns, I most likely don’t attack it either. If I can afford to split up my fleet a bit I would use my two planes on the carrier in SZ 64 to sink the cruiser and transport in sz 101. If that is not possible, I would move my one loaded transport from sz 11 to sz 64 and take Panama. If there were any
    ships in sz 1, I would clear them and move my five transports from sz 9 to sz 1 and offload one transport (one inf and one mech) into Alaska. The other four unload into British Columbia (four inf and four art) into British Columbia.
    If by some chance something was blocking in sz 7 or sz 8, I would clear them also.

    NONCOMBAT:
    All warships move to sz 11.
    Six transports in sz 6 can now move to sz 1 and offload nine infantry, two artillery, and one aa gun (he, he, he) into British Columbia.

    For the sake of argument, I am going to speculate that I couldn’t attack sz 101 with my fighter and tac from sz 64. They were needed to join up with the rest of my fleet for defense in sz 11 which now has all the Japanese war ships (two battleships, two cruisers, four destroyers, two subs, three carriers, five fighters, one tac).

    So, at the end of J3:
    Alaska: Japanese with one inf and one mech
    British Columbia: Japanese with 13 inf, six artillery, and one aa gun
    Panama: Japanese with one inf and one tank
    SZ 11 (blocking any US ships from moving to the Atlantic) has two battleships, two cruisers, four destroyers, two subs, three carriers, five fighters, one tac

    COLLECT INCOME
    Not 100% sure. China, UK, and ANZAC have only had two turns so far, so they could have take some stuff. But, Japan made some up by taking Alaska, British Columbia, and Panama. However, they collect no national advantage. So, I’ll just call it somewhere around 26.

    I’m going to be a little bit glib here, but to all of you Kill America first naysayers, what does the US do now?Huh? Germany is sitting in sz 91 with a carrier, two fighters, battleship, cruiser, destroyer, sub, and ten loaded transports. This directly threatens Washington. Japan has its entire fleet of warships in SZ 11 blocking any ships moving to the Atlantic from the Pacific. British Columbia has 13 infantry, six artillery, and an aa gun bordering the W. US. What does the US choose to do?HuhHuhHuh
    As a hypothetical, let us say they stacked Washington enough to save it. On G4, Germany could land 20 ground units (10 inf, eight tanks, two artillery) into C. US instead and downgrade its complex. Now you may say, “But hey, the US could’ve built in sz 101 on US 1 and US 2!” Really? Japan moved its entire fleet off of the W. US in sz 9 and sz 11 and you are going to tell me that on US2, with the German fleet still in sz 112 that you would be building in sz 101? I doubt that. Most players will be building in sz 10 or (less likely) ground units for defense.

    Now, it is J4 and Japan could take W. US (I am assuming all of my transports are dead for the sake of argument since I didn’t cover them) with all of my units from British Columbia and six planes attacking. Then in noncombat, I would have the opportunity to land my surviving carrier planes in C. US to defend the German position. Also, the remainder of my entire Japanese air force would fly to British Columbia from Japan (yes, this is five movements). Hopefully Japan was able to buy a few strategic bombers on J3 because now that my entire air force is in North America, I can strategic bomb Washington. My planes should still vastly outnumber his, so bring on any puny intercepting US fighters!  :evil: :evil: :evil:
    Ohh, I forgot to mention I would most likely build a minor complex in Alaska this round (J4). So, even if the US retakes C US, I am still making six units a turn in N. America.

    Other odds and ends I’ve been thinking about.

    Can I somehow get Mexico on J4 so that a complex can be built there too?

    One less German artillery and instead carry an aa gun?

    If I flew my German planes to Gibraltar on G3 like I am considering, AND if Japan still held Panama, I would land them their. This is part of the reason I would see if I could somehow get the starting German transport to sz 91 on G2. This way on G3, it could move to sz89 and take Southwest Mexico and shield Panama from a blitzing recapture. Also, if Japan would be able to keep Panama, the entire Japanese fleet could sail from sz 11 to 64 if needed for an unknown reason.

    What are the US purchases? This is hard to know for sure, but since Japan showed its hand on J1, I would speculate US1 and US2 would be naval build in the Pacific. I would be hesitant to attack sz 10 if they amassed their starting fleet plus purchases and air force there. Now, on US 3 they are at war, so their complexes are upgraded to majors, BUT, with only 52 ipc, what do they build??? Japan already has 23 ground units in N. America and Germany will land 20 more before US 4 even happens. I speculate the US would most likely make a max defense build. That would mean, at most, 17 units built US3. They start with 11 ground units and 7 planes in N. America. If they bought all naval on US 1 and US2 that would mean a total of 35 units to defend N. America on G4 and J4. Even if they purchase all ground units on US 1 and US2, that would only add 18 more units for a total of 53. How realistic is it that they would build all ground units on US1 and US2? Japan would have captured the W. US on J3 if they did that.

    Wait, wait, wait, what about the US juggernaught of an economy? Well, the continental bonus would be gone, they don’t own 5 of 7 islands, they don’t get the bonus with Alaska, and they don’t get the bonus with Panama (well, maybe this one. They could POSSIBLY expend units to take this, but would they really seeing everything against them? They do get the Philippines NO for +5. But they lost W. US. Even if I say they retake C. US, they most likely would only be collecting 40 or just a few ipc more.

    Keep in mind that having lost W. US and C. US, they would be limited to building 10 units a turn. Even if they retake C. US, it is now a minor.

    What about Russia attacking into Germany??? Well, G3 and G4 can be all infantry. That would be enough to defend any initial onslaught from the Bear.

    ANYTHING Italy could do to help would be awesome. I haven’t planned anything significant for them because they are too variable. Any help by them would be icing on top of the cake.

    More thoughts….What if the US willingly gave up the W. US on US so max defend C. US and E. US. I don’t know what this would do. It is dependent on what they built previously I guess.

    Except for two German fighters on the carrier, I would be willing to sacrifice the entire German air force to clear the Atlantic of any potential blocking ships.

    Still more…what if Germany built a carrier an two transports on G1 instead of carrier, destroyer, and a sub?

    Another thing…

    Maybe I just take my whole darn fleet in sz 11 and kamikaze attack the US fleet in sz 10 on J3 if the battle would be even close. Then, if Germany had an attack on Washington, there would be way less punch in the US defense because it lost a lot of fighters defending sz 10.

    Just another variation on this plan.

    I had a few other tid bits floating around in my head, but my mind is racing so much right now I seem to be forgetting them at this moment.

    Is this a recipe for success? I don’t know for sure, but there would be one hell of a battle going on in North America and I feel reasonably confident this would kill the US 100% Pacific strategy . I could be wrong, but that is why I am throwing this out. This is a detailed plan, so check it out and let me know where I’m wrong.



  • Now, I have a few other tweaks or directions that this could go.  Germany could sail to sz 106 and land in Quebec for one.  Japan could peacefully sail to sz 1 on J3 and sit there.  Then with Germany threatening Washington, they might have a direct amphibious attack on the W. US on J4.  I have figured out some stuff Italy could do to help.  At this time, it is just hard to tell all of the different directions that this may go without trying the strategy out a few times since it would be dependent on what the Allies purchase.  I just don’t play frequently enough to try this out.  I wouldn’t mind playing abattlemap, but someone would have to show me.  That thing is totally foreign to me when I open the program up and try to figure out how to use it.

    No offense was meant to you Jen with the other post.  I was just trying to think of how to use the political rules and limitations placed on the US before they are at war against them.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    I will test this.  However, I really don’t see this working, it assumes the Americans don’t act to counter it - I think.  Just first blush thoughts on it.


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