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Live and let live: Could it be? A British Anti-Sealion Strategy!



  • Hello, this is my second post on these forums, although I’ve been READING the forums for awhile. Cmdr Jennifer made some good points on a inevitable British loss in terms of sealion, if outrageous dice rolls weren’t a factor.

    The basics of this strategy are this: Get the British fleet out of the med, and if necessary you may need to sacrifice a destroyer to cover your retreat, get the fighter from Gil to London B1, and get the TAC and Fighter to Gil from Malta and on the AC to Gil (they will get to London B2). Ferry the Quebec units to London, not very dicey (at German best a sub awaits), you’ll probably get them into London, but it’s not necessary for this strategy to work, but it helps. Form a large enough navy that without German air-support in the sea, the Germans wont be able to land in the first place, reducing the amount of planes used against London itself.

    For the purpose of this strategy let us assume the Germans destroyed the entirety of the British fleet, besides the med and Quebec fleets. First and foremost, get those planes in the correct positions, move from Scotland into London, and don’t scramble, the Germans will take out your fleet anyway, and you don’t want to get Strat bombed. A lot could have happened in France, but let’s assume Germany decimated, and by decimated, I mean annihilated. Germany used blitz, and it was super effective. Germany bought 2 trans and a carrier, obviously. This is the key, use the french and a destroyer as a screen against the Italians and move Fighter, and TAC, Carrier and 2 cruisers to SZ92 (Still B1), REMEMBER to pick the guy up from Malta. Spam infantry.

    Germany prepares.

    You spam more infantry (So optimally you have 1 Armor, 27 Infantry (Frenchies and the Guy you picked up from Malta), 5 fighters, in London), and your fleet is now stationed in SZ110 w/ 2 Cruisers, 1 Destroyer, 1 AC w/ 1 Fighter and 1 TAC, and the Germans are hanging out in SZ112, w/10 trans, 1 BB, 1 Cruiser, 1 AC w/ 1 Fighter and 1 TAC.

    If the German player waits another turn he’ll never get London, so let’s say he attempts. He can’t win the sea battle with only his fleet, so he has to draw some of his aircraft to the fight, in addition, you scramble! Just to get under his skin he has to contribute even more of his planes to the fight. Let’s say he wins this, which, in fact, he may not (also you may have some survivors from the onslaught of the British fleet, which makes it almost impossible to do a sealion). TO HAVE A 60% CHANCE of winning that sea battle, he will only have 1 TAC and 1 Fighter for the actual battle. No coastal bombardment, 10 inf + 5 art + arm + 1 tac + 1 ftr vs. 1 arm + 27 inf + 2 ftr + AA (which could make that battle even easier to win). Germany have very, very low odds of winning that battle.

    The catch, Italy becomes God. But at least you still have your cozy home in Dover.



  • See any flaws, know of any improvements? Please post.



  • I like this!

    The only potential weakness I see to this is if Germany, as they did when I played them, drops 5 subs turn 1. Those subs, along with around 1-3 more depending on how turn one battles went, could go after your fleet, which I believe would likely not have a destroyer present if you use the one in the Atlantic to screen. This would mean a lot of sneak shots plus no aircraft could defend. So if I am not mistaken (once again depending on how much of your fleet survives turn 1) it could be about 5 or so subs against 1 carrier and 1 cruiser.

    However, I think most German players are unlikely to drop the subs turn 1.



  • The destroyer I included in combat was from Quebec, but wouldn’t participate in combat until B2, so the sub strategy would work, but the issue is that buys, A LOT of time for England to get its act together.



  • I guess you could always just build a destroyer turn 1  😛 I am a little hesitant though to be putting ships in the water instead of infantry in London, though for your scenario it might just be worth it. Also, not sure if you mentioned it but what about brining a tank and infantry from Africa as well to bolster your defense of London? I know its leaving Africa scarce but I think the game is already essentially won if Germany fails at Sea-Lion, especially if they lose though aircraft, which they will likely do if they go all out.



  • *those aircraft



  • I was thinking the infantry from Malta, rather than from Africa, makes himself useful.



  • Oh, and the title “live and let live” kind of has a double meaning. Let the Italians do what they want so that you may live, and an option for the Germans, destroy their own fleet and the British one as well, or just go their separate ways.



  • Yes good point. So infantry from Malta and possibly tank from Alexandria. I was thinking, even if your fleet is sunk by German subs, it definitely worth getting up 3 extra aircraft to London, as usually I only flew up the one from Gibraltar. British airpower based out of London always comes in handy later in the game! I typically buy infantry in London b/c I am expecting Sea-Lion. However once I see the threat is gone I save for a couple turns, then BAM drop a big fleet in the Atlantic, which immediately demand his attention in the west, giving Russia breathing room. With all of those aircraft your in a similar situation as Japan in that all you have to do is drop the carriers. I like the carriers b/c then you can threaten Norway, West Germany, etc. I think you may have just secured Allied victory even more lol. The Axis already had an uphill battle but now I see it as even harder to take London.



  • I love getting on these forums, because the group I play with uses mainly psychological strategies, and it is kind of nice to see some pure strategy, game-theory-like strategies. I know my Japanese strategy “The Australian Pump-Fake”, would be really effective, but requires psych-outs and the whole sort, and it would just get torn apart in these forums.
    Which brings me to the fact that I wrote this because Cmdr Jennifer (perhaps one of the most proud people on these forums) said that Sea-lion was inevitable, and I took it as a challenge, and I’m glad that someone took a liking to it, even if it ends up being fatally flawed in some other aspect.



  • Back to the subject at hand, a way to counter this is to follow the British fleet with the Italian one, but come on, really?



  • One, the Italians would have to control Gibraltar at the beginning of their turn. I also think the UK could possibly roadblock the Italians in SZ 104, though theoretically German aircraft could take care of a lone destroyer. If Italy comes out I feel like they are kind of taking their eye off the ball in Africa, which as the UK I would welcome. It is only worth it to me if it helps guarantee a successful Sea-Lion.

    Using your strategy, I am actually considering next game turn 1 buy for the UK: 1 carrier, 1 destroyer, and an infantry. (It kind of depends on what Germany buys)

    This will give London the following units to defend for possible turn 2 Sea Lion: 6 infantry, 1 tank, 1 tac bomber (french) plus possibly 1 infantry and 1 tank from Quebec.

    To assault London turn 2 Germany will have to go through the following: 2 carriers, 6 fighters, 1 destroyer, 1 cruiser (possibly a second depending on battle in SZ 91). On top of that, depending on the dice roll, I oftentimes have a battleship or cruiser or destroyer that survives his assault in the Atlantic.

    This strategy depends largely on the following:
    1. What Germany builds turn 1
    2. Where Germany positions their aircraft at the end of turn 1
    3. How much of my fleet, if any, survives the German turn 1 assault



  • I completely forgot about my own strategy and that rule, damn.



  • Not to poke holes in this, but don’t forget that Germany has a naval base in W. Germany.  They can sail from sz 112 to sz 109 to land in the UK.  The UK would have to block in sz 111 or 119 to stop this route.



  • DAMN!



  • Wait, that’s an easy fix, just move the destroyer to SZ111…



  • well, the way i do sealions is to SBR the shit out of the english factories. you also attack the fleets around england so the english players like s*** what should i do? scramble or intercept?!?!?!? you also should buy SB G1 + acouple trannies. then G2 you can land six units on scotland. and use those same transports again to land six more units on england the following turn. this is all assuming the UK player doesnt see landing in scotland as an option, and doesnt attack your fleet in the north sea.



  • I guess it depends on where the German transports are. In our games they are usually in 113, so they would have to go through 110 to land that turn. If they are in 112 then yes you have to roadblock. If your destroyer from 106 is not attacked turn one, then you could use it.



  • I’m talking about the one from Quebec.



  • Don’t scramble, your fleet is going to die anyway.



  • Perhaps you should just get the carrier and cruiser over to SZ 91, then move all aircraft to London, then move the carrier and cruiser to a safer place, possibly towards South Africa.



  • Then you could buy all your infantry at least the first round to be safe, and now you have the following for defense of London.

    6 fighters
    1 tac bomber (unless you want to keep this in the African/Middle East theatre for a little punch.)
    4 infantry + Malta infantry & tank from Alexandria, unless once again you want these in Africa
    Possibly 1 infantry and 1 tank from Quebec
    9 infantry turn 1 buy

    Thats going to make London really hard to take!

    Another option is send carrier and cruiser up to SZ 106 as a consolidation point. If your transport and destroyer survived, you already have a little fleet in the Atlantic!



  • The only problem I see is that in all my games the german player sends 1-3 subs after the Quebec destroyer, it never lives. As canada is easy to convoy.



  • The more subs not used against the main fleet outside of Britain, the better.



  • One thing I try to do as Germany is to attack that trn off Canada, I leave sz 109 alone. (it can be covered by 4 scrambling aircraft)

    This does two things, it prevents the canadian armor from coming to UK, if UK wants to counter these subs they have to go way out to canada and any aircraft will not be able to return in time.  Also as Germany I would rather leave the trn alive off England than Canada.  Best case scenario UK weakens their london defense by pulling 2 units off!  I also hit the BB/DD so that UK is left with only 1 dd alive UK1.

    I think the best way to counter sealion with UK is to purchase 2 CV’s UK2.  32 ipcs, which should be possible with UK’s income, combined with the Med fleet means that Germ cannot invade London, provided you can block off Scotland.


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