Russia is too strong in Alpha 2+


  • Customizer

    The US is fine. I disagree with everyone that says US is too strong. They can focus on Japan and neutralize them or remove them from the game and then swing back by turn 8 - 10. I agree with that, but not with forcing them to split their buys - wouldn’t work anyway.

    But … Russia IS too strong. They need to start with less units, or make less money.

    So far Russia played properly can hold its own WITHOUT help. That should not be the case. Even going hard on Russia from both sides and I haven’t been able to crack it.

    Russia needs to be reduced.

    Even with no Sealion, Moscow is not taken. I can get Leningrad and often Stalingrad before I am pushed back. I find that when I can do Sealion (and it can be stopped now) I come closer to getting my cities than when I don’t do Sealion. But Russia builds up enough that they outnumber Germany when trying to make the approach to Moscow. And those 18 inf from Siberia are one hell of a shot in the arm for Russia - even when chased down by Japan.

    I am currently trying to see if there is some better way of putting the squeeze on Russia from all 3 Axis, but I’m not optimistic. Sacrificing Japan to take that elusive 8th city on the Europe side.

    Here are some sample games to illustrate this:

    This game had no Sealion. Just a hard on push to Moscow that stalled and got pushed back due to superior Russian numbers. There were big battles, so dice did not influence the advance. The west could have been handles better, but Russia is holding her own no problem:
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/ind … ic=22566.0

    This game is interesting in that it is Europe only, but there was a successful Sealion. London was not recaptured, and the US couldn’t get into the Med. Italy couyld have been handled better, but Germany was just about flawless:
    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/ind … ic=23589.0



  • Personally I think Russia’s fine, but this is coming from a limited palate of games.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Jim on about 5 occassions, I’ve really been able to deeply experience this “Russian Strength” Enigma.

    I agree with your position.

    What I keep finding is that Russia seems to just have 8 to 10 more infantry than can be beaten or matched.  One of three things happens…

    1. The Germans beat the Russians because Russia obsesses with defending both the north and south at once (Nov + Ukr or Cau)

    2. Germany beats the Russians, because they error, present a medium stack, and the axis player is able to get an edge out of them in the terms of 7 to 10 infantry, evening the playing field.

    3.  The Germans lose.  Out stacked and ill equiped, the game drags out - japan wins, or axis lose.

    The only way I can see correcting this with the current setup, is through a significant change in play style, A superior integration of Axis airpower onto the eastern front with ground assaults “could” present this possibility…  The Axis Arrowhead strategy I presented in another thread (IE for every 1 italian bomber on the board, the russians have to leave 1 to 2 infantry more in a territory to stop canopener blitzing)  This with support from starting German planes could make the difference perhaps??  But I maintain that I think the Russians have atleast 10 too many infantry during G4/5/6 - atleast that’s what my gut tells me.

    Even when I’ve played a strategy of an “Offensive defensive” Axis game, where though moving my stack forward - through a series of half moves, strategic attack/retreats, position holds, mixed air coverage for maximum D. I’ve found that even with having a Defenders edge, against a primary Russian attack, it’s a hard game to win out there for the Axis…  And god forbid you look at the odds if you ATTACK a Russian primary stack…

    A last and final note, I’ve found that Italian success in the middle east / africa, or hell even egypt, go a LONG way to relieving german pressures to commit units to the west. Sometimes giving the axis that required boost agains the reds, and opening up those NO’s in Persia/Iraq.  Any strategies on how that is accomplished?  I don’t see many… seeing as the British have the initiave and move BEFORE The italians all game :S.

    What do you propose?



  • My issue with the stance that Russia is “too strong” is that limiting Russia makes for shorter games and removes much option for alternative strategies and simply promotes a Russia-rush.
    Which are some of the last things I want for this game.

    I think that the reason people feel Russia is too strong, is that Axis can’t eliminate Russia “fast enough” before the rest of the allies (mainly USA) becomes too much of a factor - and not that Axis can’t eliminate Russia period - in which case it isn’t really Russia which is too strong.



  • that´s it! not fast enough…

    because a lot of people still invest in normal infantry only! this unit is too slow! germany has not enough time for playing around. it needs to follow a direct course to moscow, no deviation of money in any way is permitted, imho.
    which means: build mech, build tank, focus on russia! i made astonishing experiences with this. so much flexibility in moving builds up an enormous pressure on russia round by round.
    but this attack has to begin on G2!

    this keeps the allies more sweating than fighting the seas or anything else.

    rock`n roll



  • I find Germany kind of has to pick it’s poison when it goes into Russia.  If it buys all slow units to maximize the amount of units it can buy it just can not get a big enough stack into Russia fast enough.  Then on the other hand if Germany buys fast units to rush Moscow the Germans can endup outnumbered big time if Russia is buying mostly infantry and artillery.

    Then there is the fact the Germany has to worry about UK London also, who I think the Germans can keep at bay but it does not end there.  There is also mega America that can very quickly threathen Germany and Italy with planes, bombers, and transports.

    I have tried rushing Moscow as fast as possible and was even able to sack it but I had to do it at the expense of not growing the German economy like I needed and watching Italy get kicked out of Africa with authority.  I still had to concede the game.

    I think Russia needs to get weaker or Italy needs to be allowed to play and be somewhat of a force.  The third option would be to add units to Germany.


  • Customizer

    I think Russia needs to get weaker or Italy needs to be allowed to play and be somewhat of a force.  The third option would be to add units to Germany.

    I agree with this.

    If someone has a game that shows how it is done, would you mind providing the link to your game?

    CHeers



  • @rock`n:

    that´s it! not fast enough…

    because a lot of people still invest in normal infantry only! this unit is too slow! germany has not enough time for playing around. it needs to follow a direct course to moscow, no deviation of money in any way is permitted, imho.
    which means: build mech, build tank, focus on russia! i made astonishing experiences with this. so much flexibility in moving builds up an enormous pressure on russia round by round.
    but this attack has to begin on G2!

    this keeps the allies more sweating than fighting the seas or anything else.

    rock`n roll

    Like


  • '10

    Is Russia too strong ? Maybe in E40, but i’m not sure in Global. I have cracked it at least half a dozen times with Germany, and some of my oponents were as skilled as me (or as unskilled as me lol !).

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=23428.0
    Here is a typical game : US has been spending massively in the pacific, and indeed, my japanese are having a bad time, even with the help of a big Italian fleet. But in the last few turns, i’ve been pumping more units in Russia with just Germany than Russian can create each round. The result is a position where Russia is going to fall within 4 to 6 more turns. Seems a long time, but i don’t really see how it could be prevented or what the allies could to to prevent an Axis win (if they don’t finish up the japs, they will rise again).

    Also, what i’m finding, is that most of the players are USED to be able to put some good pressure on Russia in just 2 or 3 turns maximum. It has been the case from ALL the previous versions of A&A, and so people think that what they have done in every other AA version can be applied easily in GLOBAL. I think it’s the most common mistake i can observe in my global games. This global map is bigger than any map before, and there are more units on the board in Global than in any other version before. People NEED to really think about it and adapt properly their play for this big map. Taking Russia in 6-9 rounds in Global ? Just forget about it. Doesn’t necessarily mean it’s unbalanced, it might just mean we must change our standard strategies from previous AA games and come with new ones.

    Just my 2 cents on that subject. That said, i admid i might very well be wrong and maybe Russia is too strong. I’m just not convinced of that yet.



  • i think there is no other way than taking russia in 6-9 rounds. otherwise it is the end for germany, for sure.
    you buy for four turns absolutely only stuff for russia, fast units. no infantry! on turn four it could be tricky, because you have to decide whether you buy defensivly or not. depends on the russian player. the US cannot be able to pressure germany before turn 5. the UK not before turn 4. so there is plenty of time to fulfill the one task germany has.

    i agree with you, axisplaya, that people should get more familiar with this huge map and adapt their moves to it! i like its huge size. better than any version before. and you are right in demanding to leave “old” standard strategies - which meant investing mostly in foot-soldiers, imho.

    @jim10:
    i did not play in this forum, but it worked well what i have tried in a f2f-game, even with a russia not-weakened. if you want an explanation, i can tell you.

    greetings



  • i agree with rock’n roll. fast units are what takes Moscow.  mech tanks and air are what win you the eastern front. i don’t necessarily thing that they are too strong, usually in our games, Germany’s  knocking on  at least Stalingrad an/or Moscow with Leningrad usually under German control.


  • '10

    @rock`n:

    i think there is no other way than taking russia in 6-9 rounds. otherwise it is the end for germany, for sure.

    NO. Sorry, but no. Just NO.

    See ? This is exactly the kind of attitude i was talking about in my post. You come to play Global with the conceptions of previous AA games, where what you say was right.
    It ain’t in Global.



  • Russia is well represented.



  • The battle on the eastern front is not a quick easy win. If it was easy the Axis would win every time. Like the rest of the game you have to out think your oppenent to achieve victory. You have to hit them where they do not expect and you have to be careful to protect your front.

    I have had little difficulty cracking the red army shell. You have to be careful and calculated. The few times I have not taken moscow was due to either mistakes or bad luck. Russia is not too strong but strong enough that victory is not assured and you actually have out-play the russians to take moscow just like they have to out-play you to keep you from taking moscow.



  • I don’t get how everyone is killing Russia with fast units and planes.  Aren’t you ending up way outnumbered when the Soviets focus on cost effective infantry and artillery?  And if the planes are being used extensively on the eastern front doesn’t that mean UK can start doing landings on German soil as the Air Force is not there to keep them honest?  That doesn’t even begin to address the nightmares the US can cause for the Axis just by heading to Gibraltar.

    The past ten games I have played have resulted in Allied wins and it does not matter who is playing which side.  Our group has seen the Allies win by reducing Italy to irrelevant quickly and we have also seen the Allies win by messing up Japan’s day first as well.



  • This is off topic, but wouldn’t it be cool if commander units could produce a few infantry a turn in the territory they are currently in (reorganization of disbanded units). I might try this when I get FMG pieces.

    Back on topic…All the games I played (probably not as many as you guys) it seems like I can’t get enough enough units deep into Russia to threaten Moscow. Even when I build fast units eventually it takes a few turns to get them to the front lines and I don’t want to slow down my advance because I feel like I have the russians on their heals, but eventually I will get just a little too deep too soon and Russia will bounce back and take out a bunch of expensive tanks and mechs. (mostly tanks by that time since I took the mechs as casualties in previous battles).

    I like how much money Russia has, but I think Germany needs a little more since they have to buy expensive units to push into Russia.


  • Customizer

    @Frank:

    I don’t get how everyone is killing Russia with fast units and planes.  Aren’t you ending up way outnumbered when the Soviets focus on cost effective infantry and artillery?

    I am.  I certainly buy some tanks, but find I have to keep up with the Russian stack as well.

    And if the planes are being used extensively on the eastern front doesn’t that mean UK can start doing landings on German soil as the Air Force is not there to keep them honest?  That doesn’t even begin to address the nightmares the US can cause for the Axis just by heading to Gibraltar.

    Yup.  I usually need my planes witin range of UK seazones (if there was no Sealion), or Gibraltar.  Effectively removing them from Russia.  I bring them in when I am ready to make my final push, but find I’m outnumbered.

    The past ten games I have played have resulted in Allied wins and it does not matter who is playing which side.  Our group has seen the Allies win by reducing Italy to irrelevant quickly and we have also seen the Allies win by messing up Japan’s day first as well.


  • Customizer

    I’m seeing a number of Russian threads pop up now.  Maybe we should pick one and keep the discussions contained.



  • A few things to consider :

    #1). Has anyone tried building a Major IC in Romania, combined with moving units from Germany north through Pol and Bal. The Major IC in Rum moves units through Bes and Sukr. I’ve found a two pronged attack into Russia is necessary. Most German players go one direction, rather than two.

    #2). What about stalling the US DOW until Turn 4?

    Thoughts?


  • Customizer

    Haven’t done 1 yet.  I am in the process of 2, however.  Trying to do a Russia forst all out and see if I can crack it, or come close.



  • Try building a major IC in Romania on Turn 2. Attack Russia on Turn 3. Used a two prong attack. You might find different results.


  • Customizer

    I’ll give it a shot, but dong a rush on Moscow form turn 2 (I even took Leningrad turn 2 via 3 TTs), and it looks like I will get stalled in Bela.

    In a different game I have 11 TTs but took Lenin instead turn 3 with 22 units.  That one may work out better, but only because I probably rattled my opponent.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Russia is not too strong, if anything, I find they are a bit weak.  Obviously, they are not the push-over country they once were!  I mean, common, in Revised, Anniversary and Classic if the Allies didn’t rush to dump massive amounts of troops into Russia, Russia fell to the Germans very easily.  That’s very ahistorical and not a very good game, IMHO.

    Now, if to state that Russia is too strong, to me, means that Russia has a decent chance of taking Berlin.  That does not seem to be the case.  The whole objective for Russia to take Berlin seems like a sick joke to me as the odds of Russia ever getting Berlin appears to get darn close to zero, whereas the odds of Germany attaining victory in Moscow will, eventually, be assured, without significant Allied involvement.

    Have you considered using the Italians in Russia?  I know, a strange thought!  After all, because all the Italian NOs are in or near the Med, we feel we have to invest 20 rounds of Italian income into attaining and maintaining them!  But do we really?  Are the objectives how you win the game?  No.  How do you win the game?  You get victory cities.  How do you get victory cities?  You move into position and attack them.

    Now, Russian stacks CAN be an obstacle, I do not disagree.  It is wise to have German aircraft present with your armies so as to dwindle the odds of any Russian attack!  But you cannot stack aircraft on newly conquered land!  But wait!  YES YOU CAN!  Italy attacks the territory, taking their lumps (which will be countered, in part with the income from the land) and Germany moves in to reinforce!  Now you CAN land your planes preventing Russia from attacking your armies!

    This puts Russia in the position of having their armies circumnavigated or retreating them!  Sure, they could swing around north or south to get around your armies, perhaps moving in to threaten your reinforcements, but common, is that really a threat?  Really?  Germany is earning 50-60 IPC, Russia is earning 30-40 IPC.  You don’t think you couldnt build a second army and squeeze the Russians to death between them?  Or perhaps you use one to hold the Russians out and the other to beat them into submission in their victory cities?

    The whole point is:  Use the Italians like a can opener.  It’s slower on land, but it is also more effective on land!  Russia CAN be beaten if the Americans don’t help, just like in every other version of the game.  However, unlike other versions of the game, you actually have to think of a plan to defeat Russia, it isn’t just a given.  Germany has 8 Tanks, Russia has 2 Tanks.  Germany has 11 Aircraft, Russia has 3 Aircraft.

    Yes, Russia CAN slow the Germans down.  Yes, the Americans WILL isolate and neutralize Japan (how could it be else when America is so massively over powered?) but with Italian support, you might be able to break Russia before America can swing around and stop you.  That’s how you win against an American Pac-Strat.  It requires a sprinkle of luck, a modicum of persistance and a heaping helping of wit and strategy.  But it can be done!

    PS:  I’d like to see it permissible for America to attack Japan if Japan invades Russia.  It’s just plain silly that Japan can invade Russia to begin with. It’s always been silly, and it will remain to be silly!  But I see the utility in it, I just think the America people would get ROYALLY TICKED OFF if Japan just started driving through Russia.

    PPS:  I wouldn’t mind moving the 2 Infantry in Karelia and 3 Infantry in Vybork back to Novosobirsk or Timguska to alleviate some pressure on Germany.  I don’t think it’s really needed most of the time, but I could see an issue if the dice go really sour for Germany.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    @Commando:

    Try building a major IC in Romania on Turn 2. Attack Russia on Turn 3. Used a two prong attack. You might find different results.

    I have tried it against Botider, Mollari (Vir), and a few other players.  The cost of the factory never gets recouped to justify the strategy.  IMHO.

    Have you tried the Infantry Push Mechanic?

    Germany 2: 68 IPC to spend
    Germany 3: 49 IPC to spend

    Russia 1-3: 111 IPC

    Germany, having spent all in the water on round 1, still has 6 IPC more to spend before attacking on Round 4 than Russia does.  Something to consider, since you massively out number them in the air and on land.

    1. Infantry in Berlin
    2. Infantry/Artillery in Berlin
    3. Artillery in Berlin
      4-8) Armor in Berlin
      (Primary units being purchased, not meant to be used exclusively.)

    Italy takes E. Poland, Germany reinforces
    Italy takes N. Ukraine, Germany reinforces
    Italy takes S. Ukraine and Bryansk; Germany reinforces Bryansk
    Italy builds in S. Ukraine, takes Tam or Ras; Germany blitzes Volgorod and reinforces the Italians

    From there, Italy moves to the Middle East for the NOs, while Germany moves into position against Russia.  (Assumes Japan’s coming in the back door as well.)

    Further, 3 Strategic Bombers is equivalent to 12 damage to Russia’s complex, on average, and costs Germany about 6 IPC in replacing bombers.  (Russia will NOT throw up interceptors, they cannot afford to replace them, Germany starts with 5 escorts, they’d have to lose all 5 to need to start replacing fighters as they still have 5 tacticals.)


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Good point on SBR, never thought to make the russians suffer that way in this version… I like it.


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