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Alpha 2 Sea Lion



  • in my next game coming up (this weekend, pretty excited) how is sea lion done. i mean what is the best way to do it and with what? i would really appreciate this. thanks



  • A common buy for Germany turn 1 is an aircraft carrier and two transports (though some people substitute other naval ships instead of the transports).  You have to sink all of the British fleet in the Atlantic with your air force.  Turn 2 build as many transports as you can and move land units into position.  Turn 3 attack London.

    I haven’t actually tried it myself, though.  This is just how I theorized it.



  • I have tried Sea Lion a few times now and it’s pretty easy if you have a good plan and you execute it accurately. I have an in depth post in the " most common T1 buys for the axis" thread (on the same page as this thread). It deals with purchases and what territories to take G1, no plan is perfect but the good ones all look a lot alike.



  • There are 2 main approaches to Sealion.  G1 buy 2 trns or G2 buy 10.  The 2 trn buy is a bit trickier because if done right you can unload 5 inf 1 aa G2 and then unleash on London G3.

    If going the 10 trns G2 route, don’t be afraid to wait till G4 to take london, provided you can do so with overwhelming odds.  This will make Russia lunge towards your capital, but a timely withdrawl of troops from london combined with proper builds can stem the tide.  Your russian player might also get uppity and send some troops towards Japan.

    Expect Italy to have to lean a bit more towards ground troops if going sealion, Germ won’t be able to help defend the Italian coast so Italy will have to do it all themselves.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    I dont think the two transports is the best option.  DD, SS, AC is probably better, since in Alpha 2 you can’t sink all the British ships because of scrambling.



  • @Cmdr:

    I dont think the two transports is the best option.  DD, SS, AC is probably better, since in Alpha 2 you can’t sink all the British ships because of scrambling.

    I agree, a good sea lion attack requires a lot more than 2 transports and the startup fleet is too vulnerable not to support it early with war ships.



  • @Cmdr:

    I dont think the two transports is the best option.  DD, SS, AC is probably better, since in Alpha 2 you can’t sink all the British ships because of scrambling.

    Well, the two transports immediately forces Britain to defend from sealion, and the AC, BB (possibly damaged), a cruiser and potentially 5 fighters/tacs (2 on AC, 3 from scrambling).  The AC is a free hit because german soil is in range and immediately repaired on G2.

    Britain can field likely at best 3 fighters (4 if germany ignored normandy and 5 if they buy an AC and send the Gibraltar plane), 1 BB, 2 cruisers (if taking one from gibraltar assuming it didn’t die G1), and 1 destroyer (assuming 111 and 112 were cleared leaving 109 and 110 which seems likely).

    That’s likely still a losing battle for Britain even if it damages the Luftwaffe.  So as a single battle, the ss and dd aren’t making the difference between winning and losing, just winning or even more winning.  But that doesn’t mean the two transports effectively plug into the german strat, or if the germans can afford to leave 5 planes in westgermany/sz 112 without sacrficing the italians, though it would completely and utterly remove the brits from the channel.



  • Britain will immediately defend from sea lion regardless of what “type” of boats Germany buys round 1.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Anything that damages the Luftwaffe is good for England.



  • @Young:

    Britain will immediately defend from sea lion regardless of what “type” of boats Germany buys round 1.

    As they should, although the two german transport purchase allows for fewer transports later, or none at all, if germany was feinting.  Germany can ALWAYS take the UK but at a heavy price.  But if they never intend to and never imply it, Britain can spend elsewhere.  And a G2 sealion is possible if Britain tries to attack that fleet and fails (pretty good odds for germany) or if they don’t build in the UK (which again, everyone who understands the setup knows they should).

    @Cmdr:

    Anything that damages the Luftwaffe is good for England.

    Yes.  But in order to damage the luftwaffe in that hypothetical fight, they lose all their planes.  That’s not good for Britain either.

    I’m not saying it’s a good strat but I don’t think it’s a bad strat either.  It has a place, just as the AC/DD/SS purchase has and isn’t significantly weaker (though maybe a little, bit depending on how everything goes and the skills of the players).  The two transport purchase simply doesn’t mean the german fleet will die.  If Britain attacks it, they’ll most likely lose everything and still see the German transports floating.  That means they probably won’t attack it because they probably won’t have enough to field to significantly hurt the luftwaffe.  That best case battle meant Britain lost everything more often than not (I think 3% of the time britain wins with a surviving something, and 40% of the time only the transports remain). It also means that Britain must build on the home islands, or a G2 sealion is possible.  And it means that Germany can choose not to sealion but the three transports are still useful for securing norway, etc.

    It’s simply an option, i don’t see it as significantly worse or better.  But a viable option.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Eh, one would think so, but then again, I feel that England has enough planes they can bring back, along with planes they can purchase that devastating the Luftwaffe to the point that Sea Lion becomes improbable, is well worth it, even if I lose a lot of planes.


  • Customizer

    @Cmdr:

    I dont think the two transports is the best option.  DD, SS, AC is probably better, since in Alpha 2 you can’t sink all the British ships because of scrambling.

    You can get sz110 and sz111 for sure.  Sz106 is a 50%.  That is enough to allow a buy of 1 CV and 1 TT (maybe 2).

    But UK can defend with enough in Alpha 2+ to get the odds of success for Sealion at 50% or lower.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Generally, I see SZ 111, not SZ 110.  Not enough units to hit everything reliably and counter a 3 fighter scramble from England.


  • Customizer

    @Cmdr:

    Generally, I see SZ 111, not SZ 110.  Not enough units to hit everything reliably and counter a 3 fighter scramble from England.

    2 sb, 3 fht, 3 tac on sz110

    2 sb, 1 fht, 1 tac, 1 bmb on sz111

    If he scrambles in either one, he loses not just his ships, but planes needed to defend London.  Scrambling wouldn’t be wise.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    @jim010:

    @Cmdr:

    Generally, I see SZ 111, not SZ 110.  Not enough units to hit everything reliably and counter a 3 fighter scramble from England.

    2 sb, 3 fht, 3 tac on sz110

    2 sb, 1 fht, 1 tac, 1 bmb on sz111

    If he scrambles in either one, he loses not just his ships, but planes needed to defend London.  Scrambling wouldn’t be wise.

    France
    West France
    South France
    Yugoslavia

    However, that gives me an idea, how bad would it be NOT to hit France on Round 1, instead, using all your planes to cripple England?


  • Customizer

    France
    West France
    South France
    Yugoslavia

    Leave West France until turn 2.

    South France is taken by Italy.

    3 tanks and as many inf as you please on Yugo?  Don’t need a plane on Yugo.

    And there is more than enough ground units to take Paris.


  • Customizer

    This is 1 opening I use.  A safer one is 3 fht and 3 tac to sz110.  This is based off my Sealion 1.0 posted way back last year.

    Germany

    Buys

    1 CV, 2 TT

    CM

    Norway to sz111
    1 fht

    Ger to sz111
    1 bmb

    sz124 to sz111
    1 sb

    sz118 to sz111
    1 sb

    sz108 to sz110
    1 sb

    sz103 to sz110
    1 sb

    sz117 to sz106
    1 sb

    Hol to sz110
    1 fht

    Wgr to sz110
    2 fht, 3 tac

    Ger to sz111
    1 tac

    sz113 to sz112
    1 BB, 1 CA

    Sge to Yug
    2 inf

    Hun to Yug
    2 inf, 1 tank, 1 fht

    Rma to Yug
    1 inf, 1 tank

    Pol to Yug
    1 tank, 1 tac

    Wge to Paris
    3 inf, 1 art, 4 mec

    Sge to Paris
    2 tank

    Hol to Paris
    3 tanks, 2 art, 1 inf

    NCM

    Yugo to Sit
    1 fht, 1 tac

    Rma to Bul
    1 inf

    Nwy to Fin
    1 inf

    sz113 to sz112
    1 TT (load from Den 2 inf to Nwy)

    sz111 to sz112
    1 tac

    Sge to Wge
    2 inf, 2 art

    Ger to Wge 2 inf

    Pol to Ger
    3 inf

    Sge to Ger
    2 inf

    Wge to Hol
    1 AA

    sz111 to Wge
    1 bmb

    Ger to Wge
    1 AA

    sz111 to sz112
    1 fht

    sz110 to Hol
    3 fht, 1 tac

    sz110 to Wge
    2 tac

    Place

    sz112

    1 CV, 1 sb, 1 TT

    Collect

    $49 + $1 + $19 = $69

    jimandstirl_vs_Questioneer_1ager.AAM



  • I’m a bit more conservative with my G1.  I only hit the bb in sz11 and the CA off gibraltar.  This way I can perhaps get a sub from the atlantic to join my fleet off Denmark.  I also have been purchasing the 2 trns 1 CV on G1 so that I have a credible threat on a G2 invasion of Scotland with 5 inf 1 aa.  I have been leaving the Italian army to die in Tobruk lately and landing 2 ftr 1 tac in SItaly.  This way most of my airforce is available to clear the English channel if needed G2 but most likely their prescence will keep the remaining UK ships away from the coast of Europe.  G2 land in Scotland.  G3 land in london.  G2 expect to buy 1 dd rest trns, the dd is to add a cheap soak wound in case UK tries to sink the 8 or 9 trns in the Skaggerat.

    I’m more conservative G1 because I don’t want my opponent to scramble, so I send maximum attackers so it is unwise for him.  I also hit Normandy.

    I think when going 1 CV 1 dd 1 sub G1 that you are actually better suited to switching to Barbarossa and hitting Russia G3.


  • Customizer

    I, too have landed in Scotland turn 2.

    Removing all UK ships from play I like better than just hitting 1 sz, as it removes options for him.  The fewer options he has, the better.  With 6 planes on sz110, he would do better to not scramble.

    And if he does scramble, barring luck, you will win, and he loses 3 planes for your 1-2.  I like this, too, as it also removes more possibilites for him, and Seaion just became more viable.

    All that being said, I repeat that with alpha 2, Sealion can be stopped cold.  I still use this opening, as it still kills the UK fleet, and UK MUST respond properly, making UK moves predictable.



  • Is there some build besides solid infantry that will stop sealion?


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    @edfactor:

    Is there some build besides solid infantry that will stop sealion?

    I like an armor and some extra aircraft myself.


  • Customizer

    @edfactor:

    Is there some build besides solid infantry that will stop sealion?

    No.  You need to max out your factory both turns.  That means 9 units turn 1 and 10 turn 2.



  • @edfactor:

    Is there some build besides solid infantry that will stop sealion?

    I spend my money in Quebec while I still have some. I than prepare and execute a plan to liberate London with the Americans, I Usually buy warships in the first turn or two including an aircraft carrier to retreat my fighters on, I call it operation Albatross.


  • Customizer

    @Young:

    @edfactor:

    Is there some build besides solid infantry that will stop sealion?

    I spend my money in Quebec while I still have some. I than prepare and execute a plan to liberate London with the Americans, I Usually buy warships in the first turn or two including an aircraft carrier to retreat my fighters on, I call it operation Albatross.

    Why?  You can hold UK.  Why give it to the Germans?



  • Well, not sure how you can hold UK but it might be possible.  What if Germ buys 2 trns G1 and then 10 more G2?  Now he can land with 13 loads in Scotland G3 and hit london with 26 ground plus aircraft G4?

    I’d love to be able to hold UK, just not sure how to do it, does it include a US1 buy of a carrier to station in the Atlantic to ferry additional ftrs?


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