The French


  • Customizer

    @Endeer:

    What did the French contribute? Other than allowing the English to sink their warships at oran i cant think of much. The french did more harm to the allies than to the axis because of their willingness to give their ships over to the nazis because of mere pride.

    Actually, the French didn’t give up their warships to the Axis.  They scuttled their own fleet at Toulon to keep them out of German hands.



  • But the English did destroy the bulk at Oran because the English admiral did not send a high ranking officer to talk too the French admiral and so the french would not go out and fight with the English… they decided to sit in the harbor and wait for the axis powers to come.



  • There is a game we used to play where once the French fell the fate of the fleet was decided by rolling the dice.  I think it was a 1 & 2 it turned Axis a 3 & 4 it was destroyed and a 5 & 6 it tuned Allied.
      It’s interesting to think of all the different possibilities that could result from the roll of the dice, roll each boat or group separately, the Axis and the Allies split the rolls so that one side doesnt roll all the rolls



  • that actually sounds like a great idea, more historical. In real life the english seized all french ships at The English Isles and Cairo. Than they sent a battle fleet to oran to give the french the options to fight with them, sail to America and disband, or be destroyed. They chose to be destroyed obviously but that does sound like a very realistic rule.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    The game you are talking about is World at War.

    France is fine in my opinion.  And it will groesly imbalance the game to give them a free infantry everyturn.

    Imagine the bulk up in FIC, when the japanese end up attacking.

    What are the Axis getting to balance this change - it better be all of north africa - and southern france automatically.



  • @Gargantua:

    The game you are talking about is World at War.

    France is fine in my opinion.  And it will groesly imbalance the game to give them a free infantry everyturn.

    Imagine the bulk up in FIC, when the japanese end up attacking.

    What are the Axis getting to balance this change - it better be all of north africa - and southern france automatically.

    I agree, It seems unfathomable to give the allies any additional “benefits” while keeping the axis status quo. That would be a gross injustice to game play when the game is already tilted somewhat in the allies favor.



  • You could give Germany control of SFrance and Morocco to Tunisia, leave the units static and sink the French Med fleet.  That would be similar to the old Xeno game, Perhaps add Syria to the mix.

    That old Xeno game was actually pretty good, but I remember it having some big issues, like if Germany didn’t take Poland on the first turn Russia would take it and stack there.



  • @Endeer:

    What did the French contribute? Other than allowing the English to sink their warships at oran i cant think of much. The french did more harm to the allies than to the axis because of their willingness to give their ships over to the nazis because of mere pride.

    The French didn’t hand a single warship over to the Axis. Many French warships were interned in British ports, sunk by the British, or in the case of Richelieu, trapped in an uncompleted state in a inadequate French African port. The rest were based in Toulon in Provence, where the Germans and Italians attempted to seize the French ships (with most of the ships going to Italy as compensation for losses sustained by the Italian Navy against the Royal Navy), but Jean de Laborde ordered the ships scuttled without hesitation. The Germans on the quay announced to Laborde on the Strasbourg that they were boarding, he shouted back “You are too late, the ship is sinking.” Which it certainly did. The French scuttled their entire fleet, they were a professional military organisation and I do not know of any Navy that has ever willingly turned its warships over to anybody. The Germans sailors and officers scuttled their ships in Scapa Flow when they found out the ships were to be parceled out to the Allies. The French Navy is a very old and very proud institution, it wasn’t about to meekly hand over its ships to the Germans, no sir.

    As for the topic at hand, I’m in favour of improving the French position with House Rules. I very much respect the French (probably the only person I know who does), and I was saddened when they were pretty much made cannon-fodder for the Germans. I created a thread some time ago addressing the issue of France, but I digress. I think that the addition of a French infantry in Indo-China, and possibly a cruiser there is a good addition. I was also thinking about adding a naval base there, since Japan’s reason for taking it over was obviously for the naval facilities in Saigon and other ports. I would like to add a battleship too, for historical accuracy, France’s Navy was, after all, superior to that of Italy’s, and France even had an aircraft carrier (the Béarn). However, the Italian Navy is already hard pressed to defend against the existing British Fleet, so the addition of French capital ships would likely guarantee that Italy’s entire fleet will be destroyed on the 1st turn. With only 10 IPC income, Italy cannot hope to rebuild any sort of surface fleet for several turns, by which time the UK and France would have likely thrown what little forces they have in Africa out.



  • I think the reason for France, is to create a variable for the amount of pieces Germany has left on the Euro. Continent. If you do well you have a lot of pieces, If you do poorly then you have less.
      This way no two games will look the same at the end of Germ. turn …… well maybe real close,  I’m sure it could happen.
      Heck France can keep that dd for a long time along with some Inf.    they still have a turn

    P.S. If France doesn’t fall on the opening round, don’t reset keep going. I’ve seen France survive the first round in 3 games,  I think the Axis won one lost one and one undecided. plus they could get liberated.



  • What about Oran? The french said they wouldn’t fight with the british because they sent a low ranking officer to meet them, instead they sat in the port and waited for the Nazis. The British than destroyed the French fleet and went home.


  • Customizer

    I think the French have gotten a really bum rap concerning WW2.  A lot of you guys make it sound like the first German boot stepped on French soil and France just gave everything up.
    I have seen footage from the Spring 1940.  The French army fought very hard and bravely against the German invasion.  The problem was their leaders were not ready to handle the German “Blitzkrieg” style of warfare, which at that time was fairly new.  The Generals of the day were still using WW1 type tactics and were simply overwhelmed by such a fast-moving type of offense.
    The French sacrificed a lot of troops killed and captured at Dunkirk so that mostly British troops could get away.
    They made Paris an ‘open city’ to keep it from getting bombed into ruins like Warsaw and Rotterdam, thus saving civilian lives.
    When the Vichy government was created, Marshal Petan, a hero of WW1, was put in charge and cooperated with the Germans in order to keep his people safe.  For trying to protect his citizens, he faced a War Crimes trial.
    At Oran, the British fleet basically gave the French fleet an ultimatum, “Surrender immediately or be destroyed”, and gave little time for a response before opening fire and killing 1,000 French sailors.
    Also, when the US and British landed at Morocco in Operation Torch, the Vichy French practially let them land almost totally unopposed so they could defeat the Axis, although they did put up a fight against the Allies in Algeria for some reason.
    Also, the French stopped Italy cold in Southern France.  It was only after the French had to surrender to Germany that Italy got any French territory.  By the way, what about the Italian contribution to the Axis?  They had to pretty much get bailed out by Germany in every campaign.  I don’t hear anyone saying they are wussies or panzies.
    I just think you all should cut France a break and stop bashing them all the time.  They weren’t cowards or sissies, they were just faced with an overwhelming force.



  • How many does it take to defend Paris?

    …who knows, they never tired 😄



  • @knp7765:

    Also, the French stopped Italy cold in Southern France.

    Well, so did almost everybody else the Italian went up against 😄

    @knp7765:

    I just think you all should cut France a break and stop bashing them all the time.  They weren’t cowards or sissies, they were just faced with an overwhelming force.

    Sure - France has a very bad rep - not only when it comes to WW2, but military in general - it’s just an internet thing most of the time.
    However much of the situation for how France is handled in this game is due to game balance.  It’s difficult, if not impossible, to accurately map up a strategy game mimic real life’s complexity. It’s not - I hope - because the makers are anti-French, it’s just that the game would be hard to balance as a 1940 game, without doing some very tricky rules.



  • Someone forgot to tell the Italians that when you take a dive in war, you don’t get back up.



  • @Endeer:

    What about Oran? The french said they wouldn’t fight with the british because they sent a low ranking officer to meet them, instead they sat in the port and waited for the Nazis. The British than destroyed the French fleet and went home.

    That’s not what happened at all. Gensoul was angered that the British wanted to negotiate using a lower ranked officer than him, but all the evidence suggests he was going to fight the whole time. He informed Somerville repeatedly that he was not going to allow the French ships to fall into Axis hands, and that he was not going to be sailing anywhere. The British responded that they would open fire, so Gensoul repeatedly asked for extensions. Somerville was a damn fool to allow this, as the French, during these extensions, were seen by the British delegation to be clearing their decks, calling their men back from the shore and loading their guns, and firing up their boilers. I.e., the French ships were preparing to fight, and the extensions were just a stall to get better prepared. The lower ranked officers is entirely irrelevant.

    @knp7765:

    At Oran, the British fleet basically gave the French fleet an ultimatum, “Surrender immediately or be destroyed”, and gave little time for a response before opening fire and killing 1,000 French sailors.
    Also, when the US and British landed at Morocco in Operation Torch, the Vichy French practially let them land almost totally unopposed so they could defeat the Axis, although they did put up a fight against the Allies in Algeria for some reason.

    I agree with most of your post, except this bit. The Vichy French, being neutral, resisted the British in Syria, in Madagascar, at Dakar, and finally during the Torch landings. They only surrendered after being forced to surrender, and some British soldiers wrote that fighting the French in Syria was hell compared to fighting the Germans in Egypt.

    As for Oran, that was the plan but it didn’t quite work out that way. Somerville arrived around 12 o’clock noon, and informed the French of their ultimatum and said they had until 1:30 until he opened fire. Somerville, however, was a personal friend of Gensoul and said that he was absolutely sickened by the operation. So he repeatedly granted the French extensions to their deadline, even though the French were clearing going to resist, as I posted above. Anyhow, the British did not open fire on the French until almost 6 P.M., thus giving the French nearly 6 hours to decide. Furthermore, he let the French battlecruiser Strasbourg escape, claiming that it was too fast. In actuality the Strasbourg was only making 17 knots, having been hit at least once, while Somerville on the HMS Hood was making about 24 knots. At full capacity the Strasbourg would outrun the Hood, but since it was damaged it could not. Somerville didn’t bother launching any planes to try and stop it, and only gave chase for about 20 minutes, thus leading me to assume he let it go on purpose, as he seemed to not even try.

    @Xandax:

    Sure - France has a very bad rep - not only when it comes to WW2, but military in general - it’s just an internet thing most of the time.
    However much of the situation for how France is handled in this game is due to game balance.  It’s difficult, if not impossible, to accurately map up a strategy game mimic real life’s complexity. It’s not - I hope - because the makers are anti-French, it’s just that the game would be hard to balance as a 1940 game, without doing some very tricky rules.

    I don’t think they are anti-French. Larry Harris wrote in the Rulebook for AAE1940 “I quickly decided that the game had to start with the Battle of France. France had to fall, and fast. The problem was, France was no small, token nation, and it’s military was first class.” So I think he’s explaining why France had to be so weak, otherwise the game would be Allied victory every time. As for the French getting a bad rep, it’s because people are ignorant of History. People tell me all the time “France hasn’t won any wars.” Then I ask them if they even know any wars that France has been in besides WWII, and of course the answer is always no. France has one of the most glorious military history’s in the World, and have had some amazing victories. Not even mentioning Napoleon, Charles Joseph Patissier defeated an Indian Prince in the Deccan at 10 to 1 odds at Velimdonpet in December, 1750. A French soldier wrote “Nobody in France will believe this could even possibly have happened.” Then at Carillon in July, 1758 (Ticonderoga to the British/Americans) Louis Joseph de Montcalm defeated James Abercrombie at 4 to 1 odds, and that was against the much reputed British Regulars, no small feat. The Americans never achieved anything close to that during the American Revolution. Then of course Herman-Maurice de Saxe defeated Cumberland repeatedly in the Austrian Netherlands during the war of the Austrian Succession, most famously at Fontenoy in May, 1745. That’s just a few examples of French military prowess. As for WWII, I think it should be remembered that France had a far better Army than the US in 1940, as the US had an army smaller than Portugal, and about the same size as Bulgaria (if you count the pieces in game the French actually have more land units than the US, US 13, France 20). It should also be remembered that the French had more men in the field in 1940 than the US had in 1945, and the Battle of the Bulge could possibly have been a replay of the Battle of France if the Allies hadn’t had air superiority, and if Roosevelt and Churchill had not begged Stalin to attack Germany in the East, which he promptly did. The French soldiers in 1940 did not have control of the air, nor did they have the comfort of 8 million Russians knocking on Germany’s back door. If the US Army was in similar circumstances it would have been defeated as well, probably even sooner than the French. And what of the British? Nobody calls them cowards yet the Germans threw them out of Europe 3 times, from Narvik, from Dunkirk, and from Piraeus in Greece. Everybody who fought the Germans lost, except for the Russians, but they suffered immensely for it, losing almost as many people as the entire population of France (French population in 1940, 38 million, Russian losses in WWII, approx. 30 million). So why do the French get singled out?



  • @Lord:

    As for the topic at hand, I’m in favour of improving the French position with House Rules. I very much respect the French (probably the only person I know who does), and I was saddened when they were pretty much made cannon-fodder for the Germans.

    Have you seen my name? I share your opinion as well. I love the French and beleive if just some mistakes had not been made in WW2, the French would have prevailed. Now you have to understand, this game is not an exact historical replay. Balance must be maintained otherwise the game is no fun. France will have its day in a WW1 game some day, but until then, you have to understand that France will never be a great power in any Axis and Allies games except for maybe a 1939 one. It hurts I know. Every game of Global 1940 regardless of side, Im always rooting for the French to win. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesnt. Its a game of chance.

    ^Above I beleive the reason France is given so much bad rep, is because they surrendered. They were a first class military and they surrendered as a whole country. Countires like Greece or Holland or Belgium, stood no chance against Germany, and they surrendered. But France outnumbered the Germans and I think most people see this as a prime reason for giving France crap. They had better armored tanks and more men, but they surrendered. And it was a quick campaign of France too. Great Britian, though they had many defeats, never gave up their country. They were prepred to fight to the death. Not to say France didint fight, no they gave the Germans hell and many French and Germans died in the process. I think the shock of French military defeat is probably why they are made fun of. The country that bore Napolean lost to a country with less men. Its just shocking. People just need to understand history more and give respect to those that died. France tried hard, but the Germans had better tactics. The French fought for their country just as hard as any American or Brit or German fought for theirs. Their sacrrifice doesnt deserve the crap they get.



  • Indeed sir, I prefer the British myself, but I have nothing but respect for France. France was defeated by an oversight (the Ardennes), and because its air force was much worse than Germany’s. What few people realise is the French actually HELD the Germans on the line of the Meuse, until the Germans swept behind them when they emerged from the Ardennes unexpectedly. That was pretty much checkmate. As for having more men, France couldn’t keep that up long anyway, as France had 38 million people to Germany’s (with Austria and Czechoslovakia) 70+ million. As for the British, I know better than most how badly they would have been defeated had their been no Channel and no Royal Navy. Even though England saved its army at Dunkerque it lost most of its equipment, and for several months Britain was short of everything. That’s another point though, Germany had been preparing for war since 1933, 3 years after that Stanley Baldwin’s Government in the UK informed the Admiralty and War Office to base their budgets on “no war for 10 years.” 3 years later they were at war and totally unprepared for it, I imagine it was a similar position in France.



  • Here is just a thought let France go first



  • That’s simple and brilliant. I wouldn’t mind doing a test round like that. France has to fall though, if France goes first and Germany can’t defeat them quickly then there’s no point. It would be nice to see France and the Soviet Union crush Germany but that doesn’t make for a very fun (or fair) game for the Axis player.

    I’d also consider having France move before Italy, and perhaps giving France a transport in the Med in which to carry troops from Southern France to Africa. I can understand Germany quickly defeating France, but if Germany fails, then I’d like France to be able to reinforce before Italy hits, as historically the Italians wouldn’t have stood a chance against France, and certainly wouldn’t have taken Paris.



  • @suprise:

    Here is just a thought let France go first

    That I think would make France way to difficult to take for the starting setup of Germany and they’ll have to spend so many resources that a G2 or 3 attack on either Russia or London will suffer.
    The entire game would have to be moved one turn, aka Russia’s declaration of War, USAs declaration and so on.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Wow what a BAD idea.

    France goes first, and attacks Italy with everything.

    Northern Italy gets sacked - losing major complex.  and french fleet moves to gibraltar, and the fighter both fighters follow aswell, thus putting it under scramble protection.

    Paris gets wholly abandoned, and Italy can’t build more than 6 units all game.  The build goes to a fleet build of a carrier or otherwise into the atlantic. to protect other ships.

    again,

    Wow what a BAD idea.



  • Which is why I suggested it go before Italy but definitely after Germany. That still probably won’t work, but I’m willing to test it out and see how that goes.



  • Just what I wanted the two extremely different views    thanks
      Italy would have to go first then France  or some sort of non aggression agreement
      Plus I thought the pro French people would really like idea
      I LIKE THE GAME THE WAY IT IS
      Have fun with the game test



  • hey,
    i have the a&a 1940 europe. what happens to the remaining french naval units and inf units, after the germans take france??



  • Page 10 and 35 of the Europe 1940 Rulebook explains how France is dealt with.


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