Assistance in developing a plan for the Germany's frustration in the sea



  • First off, this website is a blast to read.  I am glad it is a resource!

    With all the happy crap out of the way, I pose a question to the community at large.  I have grappled with my feelings about Sea Lion.  I do not like the fact that its success is a foregone conclusion, but it is if the German player is determined.

    However, with a static setup from any historical game, there are going to be parameters.  I am OK with that.  However, I want to come up with some good responses.  The most creative I have seen is the surrender of England posted by James Aleman.  If you think it is pure nonsense, put your pieces on the board and go through several turns.  It is interesting.

    However, I like options.  I am working on an option in which the German boon becomes a net loss.  If UK builds land units etc. as if to offer a determined defense, Germany will build many transports by necessity.  However, this is not a problem in that they can use them to swing around in the North Sea and hit Russia quickly.  I would like to develop a plan that causes Germany to pay for their evil!

    Specifically, I am interested in building some Russian Navy units.  In conjunction with scrambling fighters at the Leningrad territory (Novgorod?) some defensive punch can be built up quickly if the initial battleship and planes are used.  I realize that Russia must strike a balance and cannot allocate TOO MANY resources here.  At the same time, if they neutralize a second front and lead to greater expense for Germany or stall them, it is worthwhile!

    This fleet would not be enough, of course.  I would think whatever remnants of the UK fleet would also be useful in catching the German fleet between a hammer and an anvil.  If the German fleet can be quickly neutralized after Sea Lion, I argue that taking UK might not be worth it.  Specifically, after taking it, the US will come and reclaim it.  It is only a problem for the allies if the Germans can resupply and draw repeated landing from the US.

    I am asking for assistance from anyone who likes to think theoretically about the game for entertainment in crafting a plan whereby the Germans take UK for a round or two before giving it back for good.   Such a plan would not have to destroy the German fleet immediately but keep it bottled until such time as it can be beaten or buy Russia an extra turn or two.

    Another thought I had was in conjunction with a Russian fleet and in consolidating the UK’s was to play some games in Great Britain.  Specifically, some folks Sea Lion calls for a direct landing on London.  Others stage a fight from a captured Scotland as well as from a landing on London.  I was thinking about walking a line of offense and defense from the UK.  Specifically, if they build up in London with Artillery and Infantry, they could attack a piecemeal landing on Scotland and then defend (not likely successfully) London with their retreating elements and production.

    Any thoughts about the development of this initial at-work between clients purely theoretical plan?



  • Sorry for poor editing and string of repeated “howevers”  😐



  • Have not put much thought into it ……but The German Navy for Sea Lion tends to be a Carrier, their original BB and Cruiser, scattered subs, and lots of Transports – relying on a lot of support from The Luftwaffe.
    i.e. they tend to be destroyer poor.

    What would a fleet of hunter Russian Subs supported by a largish contingent of American Subs do to this navy ???

    Subs are cheap.
    Subs can slip thru the Danish straits after a retreating German Navy (unlike surface ships)

    The German player will have to think about sinking more expensive ships to spare destroyers if he wants his planes to be able to kill the attacking subs.

    Just a thought



  • subs cant go through the danish straights, all ships surface or subs need german approval unless the allies control norway and denmark.  The only passage that subs don’t need permission to pass through is gibralter.



  • ouch – Thanks for the correction.

    That Danish Strait is a powerful German tool.



  • Actually I am with straights being blocked if the Russians can discourage a landing on Novgorod…if they don’t land in ussr, I am not worried about them…


  • '10

    @Warpiglet:

    The most creative I have seen is the surrender of England posted by James Aleman.  If you think it is pure nonsense, put your pieces on the board and go through several turns.  It is interesting.

    The James Aleman Surrender London strat is interesting when you play E40 Alpha +2, otherwise, when you play Global Alpha +2, this strat is a nonsense.

    Unfortunately, I have no plan to submit for an effective Sealion counter, or post sealion strat to punish Germany…

    All i can say is this : very often, Germany will not attack SZ110 on G1 in order to get great odds in France, SZ11, SZ112, SZ91 and SZ106 and send 2 fighters on South Italy to protect the italian fleet. When this happens, you gather all your fleet in SZ 92 and leave one warship in SZ 104 (so gibraltar can’t be taken and you fleet stuck in SZ92). Then, UK2, it depends of what has happened on G1 and G2 :
    —if situation allows it, you put your fleet in SZ110, a blocker in SZ119 and you build naval in SZ110, so you basically try to stop sealion by holding SZ110.
    –-If the situation doesn’t allow it (exemple : you can’t block SZ119, Germany has too much planes left that can reach SZ110 etc…), then you position your fleet in order to totally destroy the German fleet once they have performed Sealion (SZ103 is a good place to do that). And if Germany blocade SZ104, then US will destroy the blocader with 1 or 2 ships from SZ102(which means USA buys at least 2DD on SZ 101 on USA1, and put them on SZ102 on USA2 when they see Germany buy 10 trans AND UK gathering fleet in SZ92).

    Now, what if Germany destroys both UK battleships on G1 ? At the moment, i have about no clue as to what is a good post sealion strat. In my games, i just try to do my best with UK troops in Africa until America takes London back, and i spare my remaining boats in the atlantic to help the USA when they come close to UK of Gibraltar.

    About russian naval builds, i’m just not a believer…The only naval unit i ever buy with Russia is a sub to send to SZ125, and ONLY if the situation allows it, which really doesn’t happen a lot (might have seen it only once in about 12-15 G40 Alpha +2 live games). I don’t know how things are going in your games, but the people i play with, i can tell you that i need every IPC i can earn with Russia to be spent on GROUND units and when possible on AIR units, but not sea units…



  • @Axisplaya:

    @Warpiglet:

    The most creative I have seen is the surrender of England posted by James Aleman.  If you think it is pure nonsense, put your pieces on the board and go through several turns.  It is interesting.

    The James Aleman Surrender London strat

    I remember that one, it still makes me laugh!



  • You have tried it and laugh or you assume as written it is funny?  Several folks have played it out and think it credible under the specified conditions.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Anything that’s credible under “specific conditions” is a waste of time in Axis and Allies.

    Unless your “specific condition” is that your opponent is an idiot.



  • That’s not entirely true, playing against my little sister counts as “specific conditions.”



  • Dead wrong.  That means a strategy has to work no matter what the enemy does….no adaptation.  Not true in games or war…



  • Axisplaya,

    Thanks for the feedback…I have a board set and will model your conclusions.  In general, I play folks that understand efficiency and that for Russia, every defender is important.  At the same time, blocking a northern approach effectively and possibly interfering with German NOs is like having more defenders, in a sense.  I am not yet convinced it can be done but I will take your observations into account during planning.  It would really be great to stomp Finland and Norway with Russia… Just don’t know of it is doable…


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