Transport Move, then mount and unmount

You are free to interpret this rule as you feel fit. However, it appears that all of the on-line clubs: IAAPA, AAMC, Spring, BOP and DAAK allow this move - which means it is legal. Check out my above link to the thread discussing it at AAMC. Even an AAMC JAG responded that this is a legal move. The JAG reponded that the word “or” does not mean one or the other but can mean both options are available.

I wonder just who is interpreting rules here? I’m not the one changing the meaning of ‘or’. Besides, the usage of either is also used.

If I were to say either you are right or wrong it is the same as saying you can either load or unload. So, you are right AND you are wrong because you want to load AND unload.

Indeed. Either I am right or you are wrong. smirk Couldn’t help it.

Hey, if a million lemmings want to march off a cliff then I am all for it, march on lemmings, I’m with you.

If the Jag is right that we treat ‘or’ not as a boolean but as a union then why does the rule book use the word either if they really meant both when they used or in the algebraic sense rather than the literal usage?

BB

@BigBlocky:

why does the rule book use the word either if they really meant both when they used or in the algebraic sense rather than the literal usage?

Because you do not have to do “both.” “Either” are acceptable moves. Logically, you can only do one of the actions at a time (hence the word “either”). Thus, you can load and move as many times or spaces as the rules allow. The only time the rules say that a transport’s turn is over is if it unloads or if it had moved in a previous phase (i.e it cannot move in combat and non-combat).

Also, you have not responded why this move would be a legal combat move, but not a non-combat move. I know some of the rules do not follow logic sense, but at least they are consistent throughout the rule book. It just does not make sense that this is legal for one phase and not the other.

I agree that just because the majority do something, it does not mean you should follow. However, in this situation, the amount of knowledge and thought put into the rule interpretation by these clubs are significant. Every rule seems to have their skeptics.

One thing I am surprised by is that it seems this is the first time this has been an issue on this website. I took a look at the games section of this website and found that if you are correct, every game played there is in violation of this rule, including your games. If this is the case, then why has no one else noticed this before? From what I can see F_alk suggested this interpretation and you and Xi just said you agree.

Well, not related, but on the avalonhill website under AA Europe:

http://www.avalonhill.com/default.asp?x=faq/axiseurope

Can two units in a single transport unload in two different territories during Non-combat Movement if both are adjacent to the same sea zone?
No. A transport can unload into only one territory.

http://www.avalonhill.com/default.asp?x=faq/axis
Can a transport unload two infantry into two different territories?
Yes, but only during noncombat movement. Both territories need to be adjacent to the same sea zone.

Laststrike, the examples you give are of load, move/load, then unload. We are talking, move, move, load, unload, a subtle, perhaps irrelevant detail.

I’m curious, if you can move 2 then load/unload, why do they waste so much effort on the concept of ‘bridging’? If you can move 2 territories and load/unload as no big deal, then why is it a big deal if you don’t move at all and load/unload?

So, you have to discount the special reference to bridging, you have to treat the meaning of ‘or’ differently, you have to disregard the meaning of either and there are no examples to support moving 2 spaces and bridging during non-combat, and yet I am the one ‘interpreting’ the rules? Really?

I’ll admit that is the way I play. But I for one will never claim everything I do is right.

BB

this is a conundrum

This is from the AAMC faq:

http://www.aamc.net/faq.shtml

1.31
Q: Can I load units onto a transport in the combat movement phase even though these units will not be involved in combat?
A: Yes, you may load units onto a transport during the combat movement phase regardless if they are to be used in combat or not. These units can enter the transport, be used in an amphibious assault, remain on board, or leave during the non combat movement phase. If any of these units are to be used in combat, you must specifically declare which units will be used and where. Units going aboard a transport must do so prior to any naval battle taking place in the sea zone. (AAMC FAQ)

Sorry, guys!
My goof.
see

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=29344#29344

and see Axis & Allies Game Play Manual(Second Edition Rules, p. 21, col. 1, para. 1). Please, note that I checked the Rules Clarification pamphlet (equivalent to Third Edition Rules) and found no relavent ponts.
I read this as meaning only units that did not move during Combat Movement may move in Noncombat Movement.

Jeez! If this is the case, I’m starting over as a rookie and Germany will have breating room. I like it!

guleed00, that IS legal.

2nd edition Rulebook P16
Transports
How they move
“A transport can pick up cargo, move 1 or 2 sea zones, and unload the cargo all in the same move. THE CARGO CAN BE PICKED UP BEFORE, DURING OR AFTER THE TRANSPORT MOVES. For example, a transport could pick up 1 infantry, move 1 zone and pick up another infantry, move into another zone and unload both infantry all in the same move. …”

There is also a section right below it on bridging.

Another example, a Jap trn in the FIC sz, can move 2 sea zones, pick up 2 inf on Japan and then transport to Man for battle. Also if there is a battleship in the Japan sz or one that moves there it can fire its amphibious shot.

Hope this helps.

I agree, that is a legal move for combat. Here is an example of combat and non-combat that some won’t agree with, and I I’m not sure I do.

**Scenario:
The British have move their fleet 2 spaces south of the waters around england to drop off units in French West Africa. The germans have a sub in the waters off Italy. The Germans put their sub between the British Fleet and England. The Brits of course want to move their fleet up 2 spaces and move the units off Britain to Finland. It is the Brits turn.

**Combat Movement
If the German SUB is not there then the brits move their transports up 2 spaces and load preparing to unload during non-combat.

However, the SUB is in the way, so do combat movement, put your airforce on the SUB and sink it.

**Non-Combat Movement
Page 21: Empty transports or transports loaded with cargo can be moved to friendly coastal territories to either load or unload

Thus the Brits could only move their transports in to load.

This to me is the best reading of the rules. I don’t like it much but….

BB******

Ok, I CAN see how the reading of the rules will make this the case. What I still don´t understand is WHY you can load infantry in the combat phase when they are not going to be in combat!!!

I may have missed something in the rules, but that just seems like cheating! Yeah! Dagnabbit!

Well, if you can load AND unload during non-combat then there is NO reason to load during the combat phase. However, if they force you to load during combat if you want to unload during non-combat because you can’t do both at this phase then it does alter the game. The German sub just screwed the brits out of an entire round of unloading.

This seems to make sense. If you start out during combat movement then perhaps the logic is that you have time to move 2, load and unload. Wheras if the transports sat around for awhile to determine the results of the battle then they might not have time to move 2, load and unload. They would have time to move and unload or move and load.

Moreover, if there was no movement then you can bridge during non-combat, ie, load and unload. This again makes sense. If there is no movement to be done, there is more time to load and unload, presumably you are just crossing a short distance. No wonder they make a big to-do about bridging. It is a big deal if you can’t move and load then unload!

BB

@BigBlocky:

Here is an example of combat and non-combat that some won’t agree with, and I I’m not sure I do.

**Scenario:…

I agree with your interpretation of the rules here. This is the only way to load and unload in a single turn IMHO, although the twist with the sub makes me feel slightly uncomfortable, but then… you can move tanks through a freshly conquered area to reinforce some other area, so that is pretty much the same.**

So F_alk, you and I both agree on the rule intrepretation yet, nobody else in the world does. Now what?

BB

I will join the ranks of the few and agree to these rules. Reading and rereading the rules has more or less convinced me that that is how the tr. should move. It will slow the USA down, evening things out a bit. And it helps explain why it is so important to have the blow-up boxes to signify whether or not the cargo is still on the tr or has been unloaded (am I making any sense?)
It might screw the japs a bit on their front, but only until they learn to keep their tr. off the coast of Japan.

So it´s agreed that a tr. CANNOT load and unload during non-combat, NO MATTER WHAT!?

But can it load during combat, if it´s not going to be combat? No, you can´t. P.12: “In this part of the sequence, you move your units into land territories or sea zones occupied by enemy units to engage in combat.” The units HAVE to engage in combat. If you load inf onto a tr then either the inf or the tr have to engage in combat. So there!

On page 26 the rules clearly show an example of a Japanese tran load move and unload during noncombat. I feel the move, move, bridge during noncombat is still murky.

@BigBlocky:

So F_alk, you and I both agree on the rule intrepretation yet, nobody else in the world does. Now what?

We can keep to annoy the rest of the world with being smart-asses :D…

But wasn’t there some club FAQ that was reading the rules “our way” as well? Not that it is important…

From the rules page 16
“A trn can pick up cargo, move 1 or 2 sz, and unload the cargo all in the same move. THE CARGO CAN BE PICKED UP BEFORE, DURING OR AFTER THE TRANSPORT MOVES.”

So what can a trn do during non-combat?

1. It can pick up cargo
2. It can move
3. It can unload (ends the turn)

All those statements above are always true. There is nothing in the rules that states that if you do X you can’t do Y. You have the option to do none, some or all of those actions in any given order except when you unload because then the turn is over.

Those who wrote the rules must write that list of actions in one order or other so I see this just as a list of options for the trn with no particular order. If they had written it “A trn can move 1 or 2 sz, pick up cargo and unload cargo all in the same move.” would you really have played it that way? If you read that list by the letter then all the trn can do IS pick up/move 1-2 steps/unload and NOTHING ELSE!

However the second statement (even in bold to make it obvious) makes this clear that this IS NOT the intention of those who wrote the rules. Here they say that you can pick up cargo whenever you like during your turn (BTW, here they use OR again when it should be AND as well as they do on page 21 “either load OR unload” because you can pick up 1 inf, move, pick up one more) and not just at the start before you move as the list implies. That clarification wasn’t needed for unload (they thought that but boy how wrong they where) because it ends the turn for the trn so obviously unload (if it happens) will always be done last in the turn.

So where is all this rambling heading at? My point is that you read the rules wrong if you think those actions for the trn is stated in some particular order. So the conclusion is that IT IS FULLY LEGAL TO MOVE/MOVE/LOAD/UNLOAD in Non-Combat as well.

Wisdom! 8)
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