Submarine sneak attack



  • I have a question regarding submarine sneak attacks - basically how does it work?

    From what my friend and I are reading in the manuals, these are the possibilities:

    1. Subs attack twice per combat round, once for the sneak attack and once during regular combat.  As such, if a sea battle lasts a few rounds, then the sub becomes a powerful double hit unit.

    2. Subs that do a sneak attack only do so once per battle.  Then they must either submerge or retreat and the sea battle goes on without the subs doing the sneak attack.  This, of course, doesn’t apply to subs that aren’t involved in sneak attacks.

    This takes into account that no destroyer is present.

    Thanks!


  • Customizer

    The submarine surprise strike shot happens before the general combat.  THAT is their shot and they don’t shoot during the general combat portion.  Assuming there are no destroyers present on either side, Here is how it goes after the combat move:

    1.  Attacking subs get a surprise strike shot at 2 or less.  Defending casualties are moved behind the casualty strip.
    2.  Defending subs get a surprise strike shot a 1.  Attacking casualties are removed immediately and the defender removes any units behind the casualty strip.
    NOTE:  Any capital ships that only took 1 hit remain on the battle board.
    3.  Any other attacking warships (NOT SUBS) and planes now fire.  Defending casualties are moved behind the casualty strip.  This can include defending submarines
    4.  Any other defending warships (NOT SUBS) and planes, including those behind the casualty strip, now fire.  Attacking casualties are removed immediately and can also include attacking submarines.
    NOTE:  With no destroyers present, aircraft hits can NOT be taken on submarines.
    5.  If both sides still have units and attacker does not withdraw, repeat steps 1-4.
    In any round of combat, when a submarine, attacking or defending, would normally roll, they may choose to submerge instead.  Remove them from the battle board and place them back on the map.
    So you see, submarines do not get two shots in a battle.  The “surprise strike” is the submarine’s shot and they don’t fire in the general combat portion unless there is an enemy destroyer present, in which case subs don’t get the “surprise strike”.  I hope this clears it up for you.



  • Thank you for the quick reply, your explanation definitely clears things up.

    If we take an example scenario:
    1 attacking sub
    1 defending cruiser

    Scenario 1:
    sub sneak attack rolls a 1 or 2
    Result: cruiser is sunk with no retaliation

    Scenario 2:
    sub sneak attack rolls 3 or higher
    Result: cruiser now defends at a 3 or lower

    Are both scenarios valid?

    Thanks again.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Y E S



  • This is interesting. So, submarine sneak attack works on alone destroyer? He is instantly removed, without retaliation?
    And how about this scenario:
    -1 Submarine sneak attacks 2 destroyers and hits one of them. Is the destroyed one a casualty (and still fires at sub after that) or a instant loss (without a chance to fire at sub) ?

    The main question here: The presence of enemy destroyer (in alpha +2 set of rules) negates sub’s ability to instantly (without placing it to a casualty zone) destroy  enemy ship in sneak attack or not?


  • Official Answers

    @Boktze:

    The main question here: The presence of enemy destroyer (in alpha +2 set of rules) negates sub’s ability to instantly (without placing it to a casualty zone) destroy  enemy ship in sneak attack or not?

    Yes.



  • But what if there is only one destroyer against the sub? Does submarine has a sneak attack against him or not? The sub has surprised him or the destroyer/submarine rules are applied here also?


  • Official Answers

    It doesn’t matter how many destroyers there are, only whether or not there are any.



  • I thought so. Thank you for clearing that out for me.



  • I am unclear about sub vs carrier. In this case I want to know 1 sub vs 1 carrier with fighters….

    If a sub attacks a lone aircraft carrier with planes aboard what happens? The sub can’t shoot at planes and the planes can’t shoot at the sub.  So any shot fired by the sub must be taken by the carrier? and if it hits on the sneak attack what happens to those planes? Are they considered flying and so can’t land or are on deck and so can’t take off?

    Can some one help me with this senario



  • @picard:

    I am unclear about sub vs carrier. In this case I want to know 1 sub vs 1 carrier with fighters….

    If a sub attacks a lone aircraft carrier with planes aboard what happens? The sub can’t shoot at planes and the planes can’t shoot at the sub.  So any shot fired by the sub must be taken by the carrier? and if it hits on the sneak attack what happens to those planes? Are they considered flying and so can’t land or are on deck and so can’t take off?

    Can some one help me with this senario

    Any shot must be taken by the carrier, and the planes are considered to be in the air.

    The only time that a plane is treated as cargo and not in the air is if it’s a friendly plane on an allied carrier and the ally is performing a combat move with the carrier.  In that instance, if the carrier takes a hit, the plane will be trapped on board.  that is the ONLY way to trap a plane on board a carrier.  On defense, all aircraft are considered in the air, effectly performing CAP (combat air patrol) duties and need the carrier for a landing space for “refueling”, but were already in the air when the sub showed up.



  • @kcdzim:

    @picard:

    I am unclear about sub vs carrier. In this case I want to know 1 sub vs 1 carrier with fighters….

    If a sub attacks a lone aircraft carrier with planes aboard what happens? The sub can’t shoot at planes and the planes can’t shoot at the sub.  So any shot fired by the sub must be taken by the carrier? and if it hits on the sneak attack what happens to those planes? Are they considered flying and so can’t land or are on deck and so can’t take off?

    Can some one help me with this senario

    Any shot must be taken by the carrier, and the planes are considered to be in the air.

    The only time that a plane is treated as cargo and not in the air is if it’s a friendly plane on an allied carrier and the ally is performing a combat move with the carrier.  In that instance, if the carrier takes a hit, the plane will be trapped on board.  that is the ONLY way to trap a plane on board a carrier.  On defense, all aircraft are considered in the air, effectly performing CAP (combat air patrol) duties and need the carrier for a landing space for “refueling”, but were already in the air when the sub showed up.

    So basically 1 sub hit is enough to sink those planes? (if no land or other AC is around)



  • @special:

    @kcdzim:

    @picard:

    I am unclear about sub vs carrier. In this case I want to know 1 sub vs 1 carrier with fighters….

    If a sub attacks a lone aircraft carrier with planes aboard what happens? The sub can’t shoot at planes and the planes can’t shoot at the sub.  So any shot fired by the sub must be taken by the carrier? and if it hits on the sneak attack what happens to those planes? Are they considered flying and so can’t land or are on deck and so can’t take off?

    Can some one help me with this senario

    Any shot must be taken by the carrier, and the planes are considered to be in the air.

    The only time that a plane is treated as cargo and not in the air is if it’s a friendly plane on an allied carrier and the ally is performing a combat move with the carrier.  In that instance, if the carrier takes a hit, the plane will be trapped on board.  that is the ONLY way to trap a plane on board a carrier.  On defense, all aircraft are considered in the air, effectly performing CAP (combat air patrol) duties and need the carrier for a landing space for “refueling”, but were already in the air when the sub showed up.

    So basically 1 sub hit is enough to sink those planes? (if no land or other AC is around)

    Yes.  That’s pretty much why you should always have a destroyer screen for carriers.



  • What happens if there’s 1 sub vs 1 sub?



  • @Kjakan:

    What happens if there’s 1 sub vs 1 sub?

    Subs on both sides get to fire before other units, unless a destroyer is present to cancel the “surprise strike”.  So when each sub has the option to roll, they can either roll or submerge. The attacking sub gets the option of submerging immediately or rolling to attack. If the attacking sub rolls and hits, the defending sub still has a chance to roll.  If the attacking sub misses, the defending sub has the option to submerge or roll itself.  More than likely, it will choose to submerge, as it has a better chance of hitting on the attack.



  • Thanks Deputy kcdzim



  • Hello. And Bye.



  • In the 1 sub vs. carrier w/ planes scenario:

    If the sub hits on two consecutive rounds (and the carrier misses) what happens to the planes? Can they move 4 spaces to land on the attacker’s turn? Do they have to wait for their own turn and then move 4 spaces?



  • @Piet:

    In the 1 sub vs. carrier w/ planes scenario:

    If the sub hits on two consecutive rounds (and the carrier misses) what happens to the planes? Can they move 4 spaces to land on the attacker’s turn? Do they have to wait for their own turn and then move 4 spaces?

    If the sub even hits on one round and whether or not the carrier hits, the carrier is disabled and is no longer a valid landing space for the planes.

    The planes have a single move point to find a valid landing spot at the end of the non combat phase of the turn the carrier was shot from under them.  That means:
    1. A friendly carrier with space available in an adjacent seazone
    2. An island under friendly control in that seazone
    3. A territory under friendly control that borders that seazone.

    Or, the planes die.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Or, the planes die.

    I’ve seen this a few times… lol.



  • @kcdzim:

    @Kjakan:

    What happens if there’s 1 sub vs 1 sub?

    Subs on both sides get to fire before other units, unless a destroyer is present to cancel the “surprise strike”.  So when each sub has the option to roll, they can either roll or submerge. The attacking sub gets the option of submerging immediately or rolling to attack. If the attacking sub rolls and hits, the defending sub still has a chance to roll.  If the attacking sub misses, the defending sub has the option to submerge or roll itself.  More than likely, it will choose to submerge, as it has a better chance of hitting on the attack.

    Is this correct?  If no destroyers are present, both the attacking and defending subs have first strike, which means they decide whether to shoot or submerge before any dice are rolled.  They can also submerge anytime they can fire.  So does that mean that the defending sub scan submerge?  If so, you could never hit a lone sub with another lone sub (unless the defender unwisely decides to shoot back and hope to hit on a 1).  Someone explained that to me in a game and I am still not sure that is correct.  It sounds like a loophole to me.



  • @Vance:

    Is this correct?  If no destroyers are present, both the attacking and defending subs have first strike, which means they decide whether to shoot or submerge before any dice are rolled.  They can also submerge anytime they can fire.  So does that mean that the defending sub scan submerge?  If so, you could never hit a lone sub with another lone sub (unless the defender unwisely decides to shoot back and hope to hit on a 1).  Someone explained that to me in a game and I am still not sure that is correct.  It sounds like a loophole to me.

    The defending sub cannot submerge until it has a chance to roll, which is in the defenders round of die rolling.  It cannot submerge until after the attacking sub has either rolled a die or chosen to submerge itself.

    So in sub on sub battles, attacking subs have a single round of combat - that first die roll -  to inflict maximum casualties before the defending subs will MOST LIKELY choose to submerge when they get to roll for defense.


  • Official Answers

    Sorry, kcdzim, but that’s incorrect.  Submerging is done before any dice are rolled by either side.  Vance has it right.



  • Once again, thank you Krieghund.



  • d’oh.


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