Submarine sneak attack



  • For what its worth kcdzim, i read the the rule just as you did.  But the moral is subs USUALLY can’t hit subs without a destroyer.


  • '15 Official Q&A '11 '10 Moderator

    Subs CAN hit subs without a destroyer.

    If you attack my 4 subs with your 2 subs, I may not submerge my subs, but allow them to fight.  If it starts to go badly for me, then on any given round I can submerge my subs.

    What you should say, is you need a destroyer to prevent your opponent from having the option to submerge.

    Also, you don’t need a destroyer screen to protect your carriers.  Other boats, even subs, may do just fine.  It’s just that without the destroyer, your aircraft can’t hit the subs.

    To further clarify the issue of when subs submerge:
    kcdzim is correct that subs can submerge when they would otherwise fire - he read that in the rulebook.
    However, as krieghund pointed out, defending subs can submerge before any round of combat as well, as long as there is no opposing destroyer present.  So if your opponent takes off his last destroyer in a given round of combat, your subs will have all their abilities back in the next round (could immediately submerge before the next round).
    Put another way, if you attack my 1 sub with your 1 (or more) sub(s), I can submerge before you roll any dice.  So defending subs are invincible if the attacker has no destroyers, unless the defender chooses to have his sub(s) defend (roll dice).



  • OK so technically the defender can decide to fight back with the subs and hope to hit on a 1.


  • '15 Official Q&A '11 '10 Moderator

    @Vance:

    OK so technically the defender can decide to fight back with the subs and hope to hit on a 1.

    Yep. 
    Round by round decision. 
    There are many situations where it makes sense to leave your defending subs in a fight when not required.  And sometimes even when it’s subs on subs.  You…. haven’t played much?



  • @Kjakan:

    What happens if there’s 1 sub vs 1 sub?

    We were talking about 1 sub versus 1 sub.


  • '15 Official Q&A '11 '10 Moderator

    @Vance:

    We were talking about 1 sub versus 1 sub.

    Sure, I understand.  But what if the defending sub is in a zone with a transport?  Now you have a decision to make.



  • Well, yes in that case if you need that transport then it’s desperation time so roll and hope for the 1.  But he was asking about 1 sub versus 1 sub; not 1 sub versus 1 sub plus a transport, or 1 sub plus 10 transports or whatever.


  • '15 Official Q&A '11 '10 Moderator

    @Vance:

    Well, yes in that case if you need that transport then it’s desperation time so roll and hope for the 1.  But he was asking about 1 sub versus 1 sub; not 1 sub versus 1 sub plus a transport, or 1 sub plus 10 transports or whatever.

    Transports have no combat value, so having a transport in the defending zone is still basically a sub v. sub scenario.

    Have it your way - even without transports, there may be (somewhat rare) circumstances in which a player would wish to fight with a defending sub against an attacking sub.

    Point is, subs can be sunk without destroyers, when the defender wishes to fight.  And you have to admit it’s a good point I made that one such circumstance in sub vs. sub would be to defend a transport (or 10 transports).



  • Sure, or how about you’re playing UK and the subs are in z109 and the attacker is Germany and its his last sub and you are playing OOB.


  • '15 Official Q&A '11 '10 Moderator

    @Vance:

    Sure, or how about you’re playing UK and the subs are in z109 and the attacker is Germany and its his last sub and you are playing OOB.

    Yes - good example.  To earn the no German subs NO.



  • There are probably a thousand situations.  that’s what makes the game so good - all the odd things that can happen



  • @Gamerman01:

    @Vance:

    We were talking about 1 sub versus 1 sub.

    Sure, I understand.  But what if the defending sub is in a zone with a transport?  Now you have a decision to make.

    So to follow up on, and clarify, Gamerman01’s interesting hypothetical:  if you have a SUB accompanying a TRANSPORT, and an ENEMY SUB attacks, is the defending sub locked in to combat w/o the option to submerge, because in submerging, the defending sub would leave the transport a sitting duck…?


  • 2018 2017 '16

    No you can submerge. The dudes on the transport will be giving you the finger as they sink to the bottom of the sea though. It would be more likely if you had a sub and a transport and you were attacked by 3 or more subs. Then you know you’re likely to lose and then you would submerge to at least save the sub instead of losing both.


  • 2017 '16 '15 '14 '12

    time warp


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15

    Another fun fact

    If you have only subs attacking, lets say a destroyer and some subs, then the defending subs get to fire surprise strikes against the attacking subs. In this case the attacker has no surprise strikes. Makes sense but I was somewhat surprised the first time i found out. Basically surprise defense


  • '15 Official Q&A '11 '10 Moderator

    Sean, General HandGrenade answered you correctly, just to confirm  🙂

    I was a young man in Nov. 2011!  :lol:
    Always fun when an old topic gets brought to the surface



  • @oysteilo:

    Another fun fact

    If you have only subs attacking, lets say a destroyer and some subs, then the defending subs get to fire surprise strikes against the attacking subs. In this case the attacker has no surprise strikes. Makes sense but I was somewhat surprised the first time i found out. Basically surprise defense

    There is no real defence in naval warfare only attacking.
    Shooting at the other guy can hardly be called defence, in land warfare you got minefields and bunkers they dont exist on water ( the bunkers not )


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15

    @ShadowHAwk:

    @oysteilo:

    Another fun fact

    If you have only subs attacking, lets say a destroyer and some subs, then the defending subs get to fire surprise strikes against the attacking subs. In this case the attacker has no surprise strikes. Makes sense but I was somewhat surprised the first time i found out. Basically surprise defense

    There is no real defence in naval warfare only attacking.
    Shooting at the other guy can hardly be called defence, in land warfare you got minefields and bunkers they dont exist on water ( the bunkers not )

    In my example the defending subs are fiering before any attacker. I don’t know of any other example where this happens and in all combat (except this one) attackers fire first. I just thought it would be good for people to realize. I did not think of this the first time I came across this situation!



  • @oysteilo:

    @ShadowHAwk:

    @oysteilo:

    Another fun fact

    If you have only subs attacking, lets say a destroyer and some subs, then the defending subs get to fire surprise strikes against the attacking subs. In this case the attacker has no surprise strikes. Makes sense but I was somewhat surprised the first time i found out. Basically surprise defense

    There is no real defence in naval warfare only attacking.
    Shooting at the other guy can hardly be called defence, in land warfare you got minefields and bunkers they dont exist on water ( the bunkers not )

    In my example the defending subs are fiering before any attacker. I don’t know of any other example where this happens and in all combat (except this one) attackers fire first. I just thought it would be good for people to realize. I did not think of this the first time I came across this situation!

    Well the dice are thrown before the other, but basicaly both sides fire at the same time, hence destroyed defending units can still shoot back.
    That 1 person throws the dice before the other is logical from a gameplay perspective ( would be pretty chaotic throwing all those dice at the same time ), so it needed to be formalized as the person throwning first has the advantage with the current rules.

    Hopefully next time they change the rules so the defender gets to throw the dice before selecting casualties makes combat less unfair for the defender. Though it does require players to remember the amount of hits.


  • 2019 2017 '16

    If you think that would be cool then house rule it. Unless you’re playing on triple a. I doubt such a change would be incorporated into axis agendas allies.


  • 2019 2018 2017 '16 '15

    Clearly ShadowHAwk does not understand what I am talking about.

    1. Attacker has only subs
    2. Defender has destroyer and subs

    In this case defending subs fire first and any hits are assigned to attacking subs. The attacking subs who are hit do not fire back! hence the term surprise defence!

    To my knowledge this is the only situation where  the defending side roll dice before attacker!



  • @oysteilo:

    Clearly ShadowHAwk does not understand what I am talking about.

    1. Attacker has only subs
    2. Defender has destroyer and subs

    In this case defending subs fire first and any hits are assigned to attacking subs. The attacking subs who are hit do not fire back! hence the term surprise defence!

    To my knowledge this is the only situation where  the defending side roll dice before attacker!

    AA guns 😄

    But it makes sence, really you did not know that there are subs and suddenly you get hit. Does not mather if your moving towards the subs or the other way around.

    Its just wording, just change it into surprise strike ( think thats the wording in the book anyway ).


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