Poll: sneak attack

@MEGAEINSTEIN:

**Submarines can fire a special “sneak attack” shot at unescorted transports as explained in the rulebook with the following clarification: a transport is considered escorted (and though there is no sneak attack) if:

-If it moves during combat move and if at any moment during the combat move there is a friendly surface warship in the sub sea zone.

-If it moves during noncombat move and if at any moment during the noncombat move there is a friendly surface warship in the sub sea zone.**

Yeah, that’s specifically the wording I don’t like.  That’s not an escort.

First example: there’s an allied sub in sz20.  A Japanese transport moves from SZ 6 to sz 36.  A Japanese cruiser starts in sz 20 and moves to sz 35.  Under your wording, that constitutes an escort.

Second example: there’s an allied sub in sz 25.  A Japanese transport moves from SZ 6 to SZ 26.  A Japanese destroyer moves from SZ 15 to sz 31 through SZ 25.  Under your wording, that constitutes an escort.

I vehemently oppose THAT wording, as strongly as you want the “sneak attack” back, for the following reasons:

A) We’re to assume that all movements are simultaneous.  In the first case, the cruiser moves away before the sub moves through the seazone.  In the second case, paths cross, each moving a different number of spaces.  So, abstractly, they’re not following the same paths, thus NOT an escort.

B) We’re also to assume seazones are very large.  This is partially reinforced by the ability to ignore units neutral to you in a seazone battle.  From that, and based on any semblance of reality implied by introducing the concept of an “escort”, in the first example the cruiser and the transport are separated at some point and a sub would have an opening.  They’re not moving together, so how can the cruiser be an escort?  In the second example, again, these are different paths entering the seazone from different borders.

How could either possibly be justified as an escort?

In my opinion, the errata was correct in establishing that the escort needed to move with the transport at every step of the transports move.  I would have preferred if the escort needed to end in the same seazone as the transport, but at least it implies an escort role – moving with the transport along the same set route.

Also, your wording allows allied ships in the subs seazone to take on the role of the escort.  Again, I don’t believe that satisfies the nature of an escort, or follows established game mechanics.  An escort, by definition, moves WITH the ship it is escorting.  The allied ships are decidedly never moving.  Yeah, sure, they’re patrolling.  But the game mechanics suggest that they’re not coordinated with you.  After all, they don’t participate in a battle in that seazone, if you choose to engage the sub.  If it was an allied destroyer, it would not cancel any sub special abilities on your turn.

I admit there is abstraction and the simultaneous movement isn’t a part of the game mechanics compared to a game like RoboRally, but come on, how can you possibly justify that either of those examples above could be considered an escort?  No no, a thousand times no.

I would however accept that an escort duty is filled if a ship moves across the same borders going INTO the enemy subs’ seazone and across the same border OUT of the enemy subs’ seazone  (or remained with it).  I would have been very satisfied with that wording.  I would have preferred it in fact, as it requires that the transport isn’t left alone in the seazone, which it can do under the errataed language.

Why do we have to be subjected to this lunacy again…

@acampo22:

Why do we have to be subjected to this lunacy again…

yeah, I know, I’m just encouraging him…

But when he proposes a rule change using bolded language we run the risk of seeing someone take it as the correct interpretation of OOB rules (it’s NOT) and it shows up in the bloody FAQ thread again and again, or in seperate threads.  So as long as he continues to misrepresent the rule, I’ll continue to correct it.  If he accepts the errata language, I won’t have any reason to post in the thread.

@kcdzim - to clarify “lunacy” referred only to the continued ranting of one individual for a rule change that he should just accept or play as a house rule.  I, in fact, applaud your defense of the rules as set by those that designed the game.

@acampo22:

@kcdzim - I, in fact, applaud your defense of the rules as set by those that designed the game.

So do i.

I now have a better understanding of the escort concept as a game mechanic.

Why would anyone vote for a sub NOT to be able to sink an unescorted transport?

Makes no sense to me that a sub which sees an unescorted transport would be barred by the rules from sinking it!

planes and subs should have to make a locate roll to spot ships. 1-3 ships are found and can be fired at. if only subs are attacking transports, subs roll for detection, if found, subs fire. causlties removed. surviving transports make an escape roll. on 1-2 transports get to slip away and contact with subs is broken off.
enemy  warships entering seazone with unescorted enemy transports make a detection roll. if found, die roll is made. 1-4 transports sunk, 5 or 6 transports and cargo become property of attacking nation ( infantry are removed).

I would have liked a rule that allowed subs to patrol a sz all the time (forget about the escort/unescorted stuff). If you enter a sz that has an enemy sub(s), each sub gets to fire one attack shot @ 2 as an option at any surface ship that enters that sz (even if they are just passing through). The battle would only last 1 round. The player moving through would be allowed to fire all his war ships def values in return, if you exercise your sub attack.  The enemy moving through gets to pick his casualties as normal w/tpts as the last resort. As I said it should be the option of the player who owns the sub(s) and probably only in the combat move phase of the enemy, so you could choose your moments when it gives you an advantage.  They could not ignore you if you chose to attack. Enemy combat move w/destroyer could work as it does now, it only effects if sub casualties fire back, or could simply deny the sub(s) attack all together. I wouldn’t allow the sub to stop movement, only delay it long enough for the 1 round sea battle. After that surviving ships can continue on if they still have movement left. One sub won’t make much of an impact, but 3 could. If it was the discretion of the sub owner, then any tpts moving through alone would get shot at. Same would be for several tpts with only 1 war ship. This would change how subs work slightly, and by using such a rule basically raises their def value to 2. As Germany 3 subs grouped together in one sz are like sitting ducks def at 1’s OOB. This wouldn’t stop lone transports from off loading either, if they survive the 1 round sea battle they can off load. This is just my take on it, and we have used it as a house rule in AA50, but not in G40.

Just a question - Why are people in this thread trying to change / rewrite the rules of what is, without question, the best AA game to date?  Having to roll to “spot” naval ships?  Can’t “spot” naval ships unless you have naval ships present?  Ridiculous.  What again is the big problem with brining a couple surface ships to take care of the sub block anyway?

@acampo22:

Just a question - Why are people in this thread trying to change / rewrite the rules of what is, without question, the best AA game to date?  Having to roll to “spot” naval ships?  Can’t “spot” naval ships unless you have naval ships present?  Ridiculous.  What again is the big problem with brining a couple surface ships to take care of the sub block anyway?

Just let it go.  At this point I’m convinced he’s trolling, considering he’s now in favor of rules applicable to Double Blind play for what is, and always has been, a Beer and Pretzels game - (strategy war game light, with relatively simple rules).

This thread is a total waste. Closed.