ALPHA + 3!


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    OMG! ARGENTINA IS PRO AXIS NOW!

    http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4222

    CANADA IS It’s OWN Nation!

    LOLZ!

    Fools!  Made you look! 😄

    Hahaha

    Come on, someone had to… There are so many variations now… And WORSE, there are people on Harris Design forum already spouting this Alpha 3 Nonsense.  They should be stopped.  It is OUR responsibility as fans to do so.

    Everyone here, should go to that thread there (Alpha +3 theory craft) And tell each and everyone of those ID-10-T’s to hang themselves, and deal with it.  Alpha + 2 should be final - and Submitted.



  • I almost clicked, but then saw all the empty space below and scrolled down, knowing what was coming.  I did feel foolish, for a second.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Hahaha! Honesty.

    I respect that.



  • Got me  :roll:

    Alpha 2 should be the one and only. I’m done having this game tweaked and look forward to finally playing a game that won’t be changed in a week.



  • I wish we just played OOB and if it was not balanced just bid. I wish alpha never happened


  • '10

    😄

    Now that was FUNNY!


  • 2018 2016 2015 '11 '10

    Honestly, that was so unfair.

    I just got finished running over Alpha+2 with my opponent and coming to a conclusion that our issues have been addressed; then this.  Had me going… 😛

    Hopefully we get a reprint as it stands. Though I do think we’re going to use a house rule about breaching a non-aggression pact between the USSR and Japan.



  • @The:

    I wish we just played OOB and if it was not balanced just bid. I wish alpha never happened

    Good for you. I really don’t see what’s wrong with revising a broken game but… if it suits you then go play the original with someone who agrees with you. It’s not like we’re forcing you to participate/improve/play it. However, some people, including the creator of axis and allies and this G40 don’t share you’re opinion, me included. If the game that i paid 150$ for isn’t balanced or perfect, i think it makes sense to revise it. And Gargantua, although i’m sure you’re an axis and allies balance genius and although you put in soooo much effort to create alpha +.2 (didn’t see you there making it till now) what you fail to realize is that the same people who made alpha 2 would still make alpha 3. So since it obviously wouldn’t de-prove I’m not sure what problem you have with it. It doesn’t look like larry is going to be doing an official alpha 3 anytime soon, if ever. But that doesn’t mean that the game is perfect, or that people can’t suggest changes and post their ideas. Blind posts of “perfection” and “let’s just balance this with a bid” are stupid, pointless, and really don’t help



  • @Gargantua:

    OMG! ARGENTINA IS PRO AXIS NOW!

    http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4222

    CANADA IS It’s OWN Nation!

    Wow I guess I have some more Alpha toilet paper!

    LOLZ!

    Fools!  Made you look! 😄

    Hahaha

    Come on, someone had to… There are so many variations now… And WORSE, there are people on Harris Design forum already spouting this Alpha 3 Nonsense.  They should be stopped.  It is OUR responsibility as fans to do so.

    Everyone here, should go to that thread there (Alpha +3 theory craft) And tell each and everyone of those ID-10-T’s to hang themselves, and deal with it.  Alpha + 2 should be final - and Submitted.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    Bidding is cool until you realize that Germany needed like 100 IPC bid, Italy did (and now needs even more) a 20 IPC bid and Japan at least 15 IPC for 2 tanks and 1 infantry in Korea to discourage a Russian pre-strike.

    I do like the alphas, I think the British fleet in the med is super over powering however and would be much happier if they were moved off the cost of Nigeria in SZ 82 instead.  This would give them the ability to survive Germany 1 (which I think was the original idea, at least if it was not, someone mentioned it to me, it was not a reason I thought of myself) while still giving Italy a chance to DO something before getting crushed.

    There is a very strong British open that sinks both halves of the Italian fleet (and any scrambled fighters if they scramble) at a moderate cost to the British fleet + takes Greece for the income/infantry that now are reinforced and harder for Germany to take out (or Italy.)

    I strongly and vehemently dislike this and, without buffing the Italian fleet which is buff enough, thank you, the only real solution seems to be to move the British fleet somewhere it is safe but usable.  Brazil is an option, but not plausible.  Nigeria is plausible, the fleet would be down there to protect British colonial interestes in Africa.

    Otherwise, I’d like to see the SBR rules dropped back to classic-ish. 1 Bomber, 2 Dice IC, AB or NB,  1 Tactical 1 Die, AB or NB and the only defense is AA Gun shots. (Since all those targets automatically have an AA Gun anyway.)  No more escprts, no more interceptors.



  • this is becoming a little bit out of sense.

    Alpha has good things but abbolishing the capacity of subs counter attack unescorted transports is absurd as the poll that is still going on indicates.



  • @Cmdr:

    I do like the alphas, I think the British fleet in the med is super over powering however and would be much happier if they were moved off the cost of Nigeria in SZ 82 instead.  This would give them the ability to survive Germany 1 (which I think was the original idea, at least if it was not, someone mentioned it to me, it was not a reason I thought of myself) while still giving Italy a chance to DO something before getting crushed.

    There is a very strong British open that sinks both halves of the Italian fleet (and any scrambled fighters if they scramble) at a moderate cost to the British fleet + takes Greece for the income/infantry that now are reinforced and harder for Germany to take out (or Italy.)

    I strongly and vehemently dislike this and, without buffing the Italian fleet which is buff enough, thank you, the only real solution seems to be to move the British fleet somewhere it is safe but usable.  Brazil is an option, but not plausible.  Nigeria is plausible, the fleet would be down there to protect British colonial interestes in Africa.

    How on earth do the British manage that!?! They have 4, maybe 5 fighters, 1 tactical, 2 Crusiers and 1 DD to bring in. The Italians have 2 DD 2 CA 1 SS 1 BB 2 fighters 1 tactical. Cancel out the same units, that leaves us with 3/4 fighters against 1 BB 1 DD 1 SS 1 fig. True, you may have a British carrier to send into the fray as damage absorber, but you still don’t know which way those planes are scrambling. The Axis could easily choose to abandon the one side and attack the other side. It’s not a moderate cost, it’s complete annilihation for both nations, which I personally feel works in the Italians’ favour.


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    No, they have 1 fighter they can bring in.  North Italy does not have an Airbase to scramble fighters for.

    SZ 97: Aircraft Carrier, Cruiser, 2 Fighters against 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiesr (1 fighter maybe)

    Carrier, Destroyer from SZ 98 to SZ 97
    2 Fighters from England to SZ 97
    (Fighters can land on the carrier after battle, the tactical bomber can land on Malta)

    Odds without Cover Air Patrol: 84%
    Odds with Cover Air Patrol: 40% win, 40% mutual destruction (both are fine for me.)

    SZ 95: Tactical Cruiser, Destroyer, 2 Fighters vs 2 Destroyer, Submarine, Cruiser
    Cruiesr from SZ 91 to SZ 95
    Fighter from Malta to SZ 95
    Fighter from Gibraltar to SZ 95
    Cruiers from SZ 98 to SZ 95

    Odds without Cover Air Patrol: 92%
    Odds with Cover Air Patrol: 60%

    Finally, move one guy (or two) from Egypt to Greece, to get the Neutral and reinforcements. (2 IPC for the territory, 4 infantry.  6  Infantry can be some nice extra dmg to the Germans.)

    Now, knowing the odds, most players are going to put their S. Italy fighter out to protect the Battleship.  But with 40% to destroy you and win, 40% to destroy you and be wiped out myself and only 20% you survive, I think it’s worth it.  I’ll still have boats left from SZ 95 (or not, lots of Fighters on Malta to hit your new builds with) and now England owns all of North Africa.

    Maybe you are not liking 40/40/20 odds of failure, but then, you have to assume Italy’s going to use their fighter, maybe they do not?

    If you look, strictly, at what naval ships and planes that can get to the battle you get:

    England: 1 Aircraft Carrier, 1 Destroyer, 2 Cruisers, 1 Tactical Bomber, 1 Transport and 4 Fighters

    Italy: 2 Destroyers, 2 Cruisers, 1 Battleship, 1 Submarine, 3 Transports

    Now, I am not including transports for casualties, I am only including them in respect of how much money in units will be lost.

    If you cancel like units (as you did) you get:

    England: Aircraft Carrier, 1 Tactical Bomber, 3 Fighters
    Italy: Battleship, 1 Destroyer, 1 Submarine

    The carrier can take two hits, the battleship can take two hits.  So in that regards, they negate each other.

    The extra punch England has is (3(3)+4)=13 (roughly 2 extra hits a round)
    The extra punch Italy has is (4+2+1)=7 or roughly 1 extra hit a round.

    I feel that either the testers were completely oblivious to the serious danger they put Italy in (essentially removing them from the game before Round 1) or they did so on purpose.


  • '10

    @Cmdr:

    No, they have 1 fighter they can bring in.  North Italy does not have an Airbase to scramble fighters for.

    SZ 97: Aircraft Carrier, Cruiser, 2 Fighters against 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiesr (1 fighter maybe)

    Carrier, Destroyer from SZ 98 to SZ 97
    2 Fighters from England to SZ 97
    (Fighters can land on the carrier after battle, the tactical bomber can land on Malta)

    Odds without Cover Air Patrol: 84%
    Odds with Cover Air Patrol: 40% win, 40% mutual destruction (both are fine for me.)

    SZ 95: Tactical Cruiser, Destroyer, 2 Fighters vs 2 Destroyer, Submarine, Cruiser
    Cruiesr from SZ 91 to SZ 95
    Fighter from Malta to SZ 95
    Fighter from Gibraltar to SZ 95
    Cruiers from SZ 98 to SZ 95

    Odds without Cover Air Patrol: 92%
    Odds with Cover Air Patrol: 60%

    Finally, move one guy (or two) from Egypt to Greece, to get the Neutral and reinforcements. (2 IPC for the territory, 4 infantry.  6  Infantry can be some nice extra dmg to the Germans.)

    Now, knowing the odds, most players are going to put their S. Italy fighter out to protect the Battleship.  But with 40% to destroy you and win, 40% to destroy you and be wiped out myself and only 20% you survive, I think it’s worth it.  I’ll still have boats left from SZ 95 (or not, lots of Fighters on Malta to hit your new builds with) and now England owns all of North Africa.

    Maybe you are not liking 40/40/20 odds of failure, but then, you have to assume Italy’s going to use their fighter, maybe they do not?

    If you look, strictly, at what naval ships and planes that can get to the battle you get:

    England: 1 Aircraft Carrier, 1 Destroyer, 2 Cruisers, 1 Tactical Bomber, 1 Transport and 4 Fighters

    Italy: 2 Destroyers, 2 Cruisers, 1 Battleship, 1 Submarine, 3 Transports

    Now, I am not including transports for casualties, I am only including them in respect of how much money in units will be lost.

    If you cancel like units (as you did) you get:

    England: Aircraft Carrier, 1 Tactical Bomber, 3 Fighters
    Italy: Battleship, 1 Destroyer, 1 Submarine

    The carrier can take two hits, the battleship can take two hits.  So in that regards, they negate each other.

    The extra punch England has is (3(3)+4)=13 (roughly 2 extra hits a round)
    The extra punch Italy has is (4+2+1)=7 or roughly 1 extra hit a round.

    I feel that either the testers were completely oblivious to the serious danger they put Italy in (essentially removing them from the game before Round 1) or they did so on purpose.

    You’re right, UK has a lot of punch in the med, but i still don’t like that UK move for at least 3 reasons.

    1- It’s not “maybe” one fighter that will scramble in south Italia, but 3 (2 germain fighters will end up there on G1). Their primary target is now those 2 UK fighters so they will all scramble on SZ95.

    2- Often ( somewhere between 35 and 45% i guess), you will not have the UK cruiser on SZ 91 for your attack as a germain sub will have sunk it on G1. Depending on that, one of the 3 figthers might scramble on SZ 97 instead of 95…and it could result with an italien win on both sides ! But of course, you may not make that UK attack with the loss of the SZ91 cruiser.

    3- The loss of these 2 UK fighters is a great incentive for Sealion (G1 buy : the “classical” 1 Aircraft carrier and 2 transports).

    I won’t pretend to be an expert with just a few games of Alpha+2, but so far, our UK players haven’t be willing to pull that 2 zones attack in the med.


  • '10

    Yeah, I think Germany really needs to get those planes down to Italy G1.  If they don’t, then yeah, could be very bad for Italia.



  • @eudemonist:

    Yeah, I think Germany really needs to get those planes down to Italy G1.  If they don’t, then yeah, could be very bad for Italia.

    How, I don’t how 2 planes can attack the UK fleet and fly all the way to souther Italy. Kindly tell me which planes your talking about.



  • Fighter from Hungary and 1 other air unit from else where. Generally a tactical or fighter from West Germany that was used against France in combat.


  • '10

    @Idi:

    @eudemonist:

    Yeah, I think Germany really needs to get those planes down to Italy G1.  If they don’t, then yeah, could be very bad for Italia.

    How, I don’t how 2 planes can attack the UK fleet and fly all the way to souther Italy. Kindly tell me which planes your talking about.

    There is more than 1 solution to this,  but here is what i did last time i played germany :

    1 figther (from Western Germany or Norway) attacks SZ 112 and then NCM to southern Italia.
    1 fighter for Slovakia/Hungary NCM to southern Italy.

    True : the slovakia fighter not participating to any combat on G1 might seem like an heresy to many players, but i don’t care ! My goal is to protect the italian fleet.
    On that G1, i have wiped almost the entire UK fleet with losing only one plane ! SZ 106 and 91 have been “cleaned”. The only SZ i didn’t attack was SZ 109.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    I agree with Axisplaya.

    You can use the Hungary fighter in the battle for Yugoslavia, on it’s way to southern italy.

    The Norway fighter sees combat too in Sz112.


  • '10

    @Gargantua:

    I agree with Axisplaya.

    You can use the Hungary fighter in the battle for Yugoslavia, on it’s way to southern italy.

    Oops…forgot to do that last time i played, but it won’t happen again !



  • @cts17:

    Fighter from Hungary and 1 other air unit from else where. Generally a tactical or fighter from West Germany that was used against France in combat.

    You actually use planes to attack France? WoW


  • 2018 2017 2016 '11 Moderator

    England to SZ 110
    SZ 110 to Holland
    Holland to Germany
    Germany to N. Italy
    N. Italy to either SZ (whichever gets the carrier.)

    Just to answer the question how the fighters from England get to the Italian fleet.

    Meanwhile, Yea, I had not thought of the Germans flying CAP for the Italians…I always figured you were CAPing your own fleet not an allies fleet. (Yes, I know you can.)

    That would significantly reduce Italy’s castration.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    yea it’s a must.

    You HAVE to defend the Italian fleet, or you might aswell forfeit the game.

    It comes second to nothing else Germany does.



  • Gargantua and anyone else,

    What would you do if even after putting the 2 German fighters in Southern Italy the fleet with 2 transports goes down and US builds up and heads to Gibralter to size up targets once at war.  I understand Sea Lion is one option if the UK loses too many fighters but I do prefer to fight Russia.  Can Italy be saved, Norway protected so that it at least can be taken back if USA hits there and pressure still put on Russia?  I have some ideas but I think it could be tough.  I won’t tip my hand too much on this until after I fighter Chompers on Thursday.

    I understand skillful use of Japan is key and maybe I am answering my own question but as Gargantua has stated earlier Japan needs to put pressure on the US to not spend in Europe one way or another.  I think there are ways to do this with some minor variation in each tactic.

    Also do you think it is more important to take Normandy G1 or sink both UK alantic Battleships.  I think it is next to impossible to take down all three, get the fighters to Southern Italy and still make France all but a done deal.  My opponent will scramble his fighters in the UK and Scotland unless I go in with overwhelming force.

    Any thoughts would be appreciated.  Hopefully Chompers doesn’t read this thread before I play him Thursday but if he does I will just lose the element of surprise.


  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Italy needs to focus IMMEDIATELY on all of it’s NO’s.

    Gibraltar is part of that. As is clearing the med.

    I’ve gotten Italy to 35+ on I1, with some gambles,  you can make it to 50ish with the new NO’s by the time the states roughly gets into the war.

    Finger spreading aside, at 50 IPC’s and Germany close by with a similar income, you should be able to fight off the U.S. and support German advances into Russia just aswell.


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