FMG COMBAT UNITS - Rules: AIR TRANSPORT

Imperious Leader,

I agree with YOUR thoughts concerning Air Transport(n/cm) and Paratroop Drops(cm).

I understand that there were two different schools of thought for a/c range.

FOUR in (combat) paratroop drops,…and SIX in (non-combat) air transport

OR

Four in ALL matters. Which did you end up thinking the best?

“Tall Paul”

Keep it the same as the game rules for combat movement for airborne, and 6 for NCM transport.

I still with my thought because me and my friend tested the transtport rules.
10 IPc for air transport is too much!
And 6 A/C range is too much.

How can anybody have respect for some limit of 5 air transport planes for every nation based on some notion that “its historical”?
I never wrote that! Air transport Cost 5 IPC not limit.
But yes there’s some limit on some units like panzergrenadier, SS troops and paratroopers because everybody cannot be a special soldier!
that’s historical!!!
Try it before to say anything!

Crusaderiv,

With all due respect,…I believe that if you truly thought it through you would see the wisdom and equity of having the Air Transport units cost TEN I.P.C.s and have a range of FOUR in Combat, and SIX in non-combat.

“Tall Paul”

Air transport Cost 5 IPC not limit

This is not historical…  Way too cheap. 10 is perfect since the bomber can perform it’s attack mission as well

IL,

The rules that I’m concerned with for Air Transport pertain to the HBG C-46 Commando and FMG C-47 SkyTrain(when produced), both 2-Engine types, and NOT a 4-Engine Bomber of any type.

Would you then consider that a C-46/C-47 should therefore have a non-comat range of FOUR?

I’m much in favor of having Bombers ONLY BOMB, and Air transports ONLY TRANSPORT.

“Tall Paul”

The whole idea of transporting infantry to reinforce is to have another way to other than factories to sustain the front.

I consider this just a more rugged form of airline travel, which means the 6 range is adequate as trans Atlantic flights were occurring in this time.

It weakens the utility of spending 10 IPC to reduce the NCM range to say 4.

However, it makes the rule easier to remember if the range is the same…say at 4

I use the rules below.  I think the use of notional garrison units keeps paratroops from running amok, so there is no need to limit the range to 4.  The restriction on building one per turn per country keeps them from spamming all over the map, and is somewhat realistic, as they were elite units.  I don’t like the idea of allowing an air transport to carry two units.  That’s just a personal preference.  I like the idea of being able to simulate airborne landings on D-Day, where the paratroops were part of a larger operation.  Where paratroops were used by themselves, without immediate link-up with heavier ground forces, their success rate was lower, and/or their casualties were excessive (Market Garden/Crete/Malta, and post WWII at Dien Bien Phu).  The only major exception I can think of is Eban Emael (although even this operation involved over 25% casualties).

Air Transports / Airborne Assaults

Air transports cost 7 IPCs to build.  They have no attack or defense value, and may move up to 6 spaces per turn.  (I use a bomber with a blue poker chip under it to represent an air transport.)

During the Non-Combat Movement Phase an air transport may be used to transport one paratroop or regular infantry from one friendly controlled territory to another friendly controlled territory.  This ends the air transport’s movement for the turn, even if it moved less than 6 spaces.  Air transports cannot carry tanks, artillery, mechanized infantry, AA guns, or marines.

During the Combat Movement Phase an air transport that starts its turn in the same territory as a paratroop may load that paratroop and air drop it onto an enemy-controlled territory.  If there is an AA gun in the territory, the air transport must first survive anti-aircraft fire before dropping the paratroop.  If the air transport is destroyed by AA fire, the paratroop is destroyed with it.  If a paratroop is dropped into an enemy controlled territory that contains no enemy combat units, there is assumed to be a “garrison” unit in the territory.  The garrison unit defends with a 1, and must be eliminated before the paratroop can capture the territory.  The garrison unit is ignored if there are also units attacking the same territory that are not making an airborne assault.  When air dropping  paratroops, air transports may not make “suicide runs” (i.e., They must have enough range to land in a friendly controlled territory).

Paratroops

Any major power except China may build paratroops, but no nation may build more than one per turn.  For purposes of this limit, the British player may build paratroops on either map, but can still only build one per turn total.

Paratroops cost 4 IPCs to build.  They function as regular infantry in all respects, except that they attack with a 2 when making an airborne assault.  (I use a regular infantry piece with a blue poker chip under it to represent a paratroop.)

Here is what I’m thinking.

Paratrooper:

Paratrooper 1/2/1. cost 4ipcs.  Functions like an inf in all regards except that it can be paradropped.  
There is no bonus assigned to paratroopers who are airdropped.  They attack on a 1 unless there is an artillery that came by land or sea to raise their attack to a 2.

Air Transport:

0/0/4. Costs 10 ipcs.  An air transport does receive the 1 mp bonus for an airbase. Long range tech will increase their move by 1.

Capacity: 1 inf or para unit.  Must load in an airbase. Does not need an airbase to unload.

Combat move:  Load a paratrooper unit (only) onto a transport, they must start in the same space and there must an airbase.  An air transport may not not move first and pick up a paratrooper on the way. Move the transport to its target territory for the airdrop.  Empty transports CANNOT be combat moved as fodder.

During combat:  An air transport drops it’s paratrooper immediately after AA fire.  As a loaded air transport costs more than a bomber, it need not be chosen last.  After dropping it’s paratrooper, it immediately retreats from the battle, to be landed in the NCM.  If defending, and air transport cannot fire but can be taken as a loss, again it need not be chosen last.

Non Combat move:  If the plane moved in the CM, land it.  If not:  It can be loaded with one inf or para and be moved to a destination within range and unloaded.  There must be an airbase in the space where it loaded, but not where it lands. The transport, inf/para and airbase must all start the NCM in the same space.  An air transport may not start its move empty and pick its cargo on the way. You cannot make a paradrop in the NCM even if the cargo is a paratrooper.  The transport must land.  If an air transport starts its NCM in a space without an airbase, it may still move, it just can’t carry any units.

Notes:  I support 10 ipc cost over 5 as these units are very hard to kill and more versatile then sea transports.  I’m not sure about the 6 move and 2 unit limit in the NCM as the capacity is too high and the range would allow units to fly across the atlantic, which never happened at this scale.  I think it would lead to some very ahistorical stuff, in particular the USA flying inf units galore to the UK from the USA. Â

2 unit capacity could also allow the axis to flood africa.  I think we should leave the large loads to the barges.

IL, Almashir, and Moralecheck,

I’m sorry but IMHO it’s too powerful to give the C-46/C-47 2-Engine Air Transports a range of SIX (6), the range of a 4-engine intercontinental aircraft.

I strongly feel it’s range should be FOUR (4). This would be FIVE (5) when used in concert with an Airbase. Giving these Air transports a range of SIX (6) is way too much in that you could then air transport directly from the United States to England,…which IMHO would radically imbalance the game.

I believe an air transport having TWICE the range of a Sea Transport, as well as the capability of combat PARATROOP DROPS fully justifies the cost of 10 I.P.C.s.

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I believe that any BUILDING limit, or TOTAL limit on Air Transports is UNACCEPTABLE and inconsistant with what A&A players have always been able to do by forming their strategy through their purchases.

And the requirement that Air Transports(N/C) MUST START AND END their turns at an AIRBASE further strengthens this viewpoint. By having to invest in Airbases keeps a player from “running amock all over the map” and allows his enemy to see the possibilities of future operations and plan his counter moves.

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ONLY Paratroopers can make Paratroop Drops in the combat phase.

However, ANY Infantry-type unit, including Marines, can be air transported in the non-combat phase.

Why would you think that Marines shouldn’t fly in a Transport plane? They had their own
C-47s that they designated R-4Ds if I remember correctly.

And a non-combat air tranport would have the capacity of TWO Infantry types.

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So if America wanted to n/c air transport Infantry only type forces to Europe/Africa it would have to develope an intermediate Airbase such as Iceland or Brazil. And it would also have to defend these bases.

These thoughts, mostly IL’s, with the exception of air transports having a range of FOUR (4), IMHO are the most thoroughly thought out and acceptable rules for
Air transport / Paratroop drops.

“Tall Paul”

ok keep it four for either mission. thats fine.

Tall Paul,

I forgot about the marines, sorry.  Yes, carrying any infantry type piece in the NCM is fine with me.

I’ve still been thinking about how hard air transports are to kill.  I had an idea, so I thought I’d run it by you guys.  An air transport can destroyed by SBRing the airfield of the territory that it is in.  If the damage is to the airfield is 3 or 4 an transport is destroyed (in addition to the airbase being unusable). If the damage is 5 or 6 than 2 air transports are destroyed (the most that can be destroyed, with an attack like this), assuming there are 2 or more.  This gives them a vulnerablity, increases SBRs, and adds a realistic depth of making sure that you give them adequate fighter protection.  Air transports in territories without airbases cannot be attacked in this manner, but they are not a position to do anything anyway.

Okay, I looked it up, and the maximum range on a C-47 was 3,800 miles.  But the normal range (fully loaded) was 1,600 miles.  So that wouldn’t be a non-stop flight across the atlantic, unless it was empty (JFK to Heathrow is 3458 miles).  A B-17 could fly 2,000 miles with a “useful bomb load.”  And a B-17 would be flying empty for the return trip on a bomb run, so that would extend the range further.

I guess you could say transports have a range of 4 if they are carrying something, and range 6 if they are empty.  And if someone asks why we don’t do that with bombers, the official answer can be “because.”  :lol:

As for carrying marines, I go back and forth on that one.  I guess you could say their landing craft and other amphibious landing equipment is pre-staged at their destination.  They also don’t need as many vehicles as mech infantry, because they can re-use the same landing craft for multiple trips to the beach, at which point they are basically leg-mobile.

Specifications First flight: Dec. 23, 1941
Model Number: C-47/R4D
Wingspan: 95 feet 6 inches
Length: 63 feet 9 inches
Height: 17 feet
Service ceiling: 24,000 feet
Normal range: 1,600 miles
Maximum range: 3,800 miles
Weight: 31,000 pounds
Cruise speed: 160 mph
Power plant: Two 1,200 horsepower Pratt & Whitney R-1830 radial engines
Accommodation: Three crew and 6,000 pounds of cargo, or 28 airborne troops, or 14 stretcher patients and three attendants

Moralecheck and Almashir,

Moralecheck

While your idea of destroying Air Transports via SBR raids on Airbases is very interesting,…I believe it might “open up a can of worms” that we don’t want to.

You reasoning allows you to kill the Air transports easily enough, even after your enemy has gone to the trouble and exspence of buying Airbases, Air transports, and Paratroops and/or Infantry. I don’t think this is just. And there certainly is no equivilent for the killing of Sea Transports. So I would respectfully disagree.

Almashir

As for NOT air transporting Marines,…I can see no reason to restrict them from this capability. After all, Army soldiers are allowed to be sea transported, which is the Marines specialty. So what purpose does this serve?

Do you think the Marines don’t deserve air transport and should only be sea transported in the smelly hold of a slow ship? I’ll let YOU tell that to my “grunts”. They have their eyes on you(grin).

“Tall Paul”

Four seems like it would be the best for range

@Tall:

While your idea of destroying Air Transports via SBR raids on Airbases is very interesting,…I believe it might “open up a can of worms” that we don’t want to.

You reasoning allows you to kill the Air transports easily enough, even after your enemy has gone to the trouble and exspence of buying Airbases, Air transports, and Paratroops and/or Infantry. I don’t think this is just. And there certainly is no equivilent for the killing of Sea Transports. So I would respectfully disagree.

Fair enough, it was more of a passing thought anyway.

i’m ok with marines on air transports, so I assume the last part was for Almashir.

Okay, let’s see if I have the general semi-official non-binding consensus down:

Air transport:  Attack 0 / Defense 0

Movement:  4

Combat movement:  Can carry Paratroops only (one unit per air transport).  Subject to AA fire from AA guns located in the landing zone.  If the air transport is destroyed, the paratroop is destroyed with it.

Non-Combat movement:  Can carry Paratroops, Marines, or Leg Infantry (one unit per air transport)

No suicide runs for air transports.  After dropping paratroops, they have to be able to land in a territory that was friendly controlled at the beginning of the turn.

Now it gets tricky.

I saw ideas earlier in the thread that would allow airborne drops to commence only from air bases.  With the range limited to 4, I think this would be too restrictive.  I would say that the paratroop and air transport have to begin the turn in the same territory, but it doesn’t need to have an air base.

Non-combat move:  An air transport and the unit it is carrying must begin the turn in the same territory.  The air transport ends its movement in the same territory as the unit it carried.  (This represents the reality that it would take multiple trips by a very large number of air transports to relocate a complete infantry corps with all its supplies and equipment.  Of course, in reality, the unit’s organic trucks, heavy artillery, and engineering equipment couldn’t go by air, but at some point you have to make allowances for a game  :lol:)

Any number of air transports can be built in a single turn.

I’m a little uneasy about allowing unlimited contruction of paratroops in a single turn, but I think I’m outnumbered on that one.  So crank 'em out to your heart’s content.

Did I forget anthing?  Or does anyone see any game breaking problems?

I’m liking what you have written.  We need to iron out tech rules that effect them, and a replacement for airborne tech, but that’s about it.  I agree with the ‘representing a few trips’ idea as well.  I’m pretty sure the Me-323 Gigant would be able to carry an inf units organic trucks and artillery (over a few trips, with several aircraft) but I don’t think any other nation had an equivalent to it, nor would the the Gigant have been used for paradrops, so I guess the abstraction continues!

Almashir,

Combat Paratroop Drops Must START at an Airbase and they have a capacity of
ONE Paratrooper.

Non-combat Air Transport Must START and END at Airbases and they have a capacity of TWO Infantry-type units.

You can make up whatever “house rules” you like to fit your desires. But without the Airbases being mandatory at BOTH ends of an non-combat air transport you are allowing the almost unlimited re-inforcing of units without having to invest in any infrastructure or allowing the enemy any capability of countering it.

And without the Airbase being necessary to start a combat Paratroop Drop from, all a player needs to accomplish a complete surprise attack is a Air transport and a Paratrooper without ANY other investment, OR the enemy having the capability of countering it. This allows a player to basically range the whole map with possible sneak attacks that can’t be defended against, were ahistorical, and would completely un-balance the gameplay.

IMHO this is completely wrong and I believe when you think it through you will see this also.

I would NEVER agree to playing an A&A game with these rules, and I don’t believe any other player after thinking them through would either! I’m sorry for being so blunt,…but the Airbases are NECESSARY from many different viewpoints. Offensive, defensive, historical, gameplay, basically the whole shebabang.

“Tall Paul”