The reason the west went to war with germany is pure BS


  • 2007 AAR League

    England and France said they would go to war to protect poland from invasion.  Then when poland is invaded they say this is the reason for war.  so they delcare war on germany.

    But what about the soviet union.  why in hell didnt they declare war on the soviet union?

    i’ll tell you why……b/c protecting poland wasn’t the reason to go to war.  it was one group of elites trying to protect their wealth against another group of elites.

    then those warmongers for the second time in a row conned america into joining a war effort b/c the aristocratic elites of the allied powers knew they couldnt beat germany without american help.  so they kept trying to devise ways to either con germany into attacking america by having america carry out overt acts of non neutrality by using american destroyers to protect american lend lease shipments.  when the germans didnt sink any ameircan vessels, they decided to goad japan into attacking america.

    America was once again suckered into fighting a war that was not its war to fight.  So many midwestern boys died to european artistocrats could keep wealth and power its sickening.

    what say you guys.  ever wonder why england and france never declared war on the USSR for invading poland?



  • Because it would be impossible to defeat Germany and Russia at the same time?

    I assume you think that FDR had advanced knowledge of the Pearl Harbor attack?



  • And I also assume you think that Zeitgist is completely accurate?



  • Germany declared war on the USA after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, fulfilling their treaty with Tokyo.

    Don’t forget that Germany was annexing/given territory to prevent another World War. Czechs, Austrians, The Saar, etc.

    The False War after 9/1/39 showed how unprepared France and Britan were to back up Poland.

    In my opinion, the Pacific War was purley based on economics, and to a lesser degree cultural misunderstandings.  The war with Germany was based on ideology, as well as economics.  Germany (at the time) was a society based on fear and power worship coming off a humilating defeat of WWI.

    As for the USSR, I feel that UK/France knew they could not expect to take down both Germany and the Soviets, thus they “looked the other way” when Eastern Poland was consumed.

    America was not conned into war.  In my thoughts, FDR knew the dangers of losing democracy if the UK fell.



  • USA entered at war just because Japan attacked them, pure and simple. And Japan attacked USA because Japan needed the Dutch East Indies resources (for their war against China and because Japan only had oild reserves to some months), and they couldn’t take that for safe with yankees in the rear (Philippines). Then, Hitler was enough stupid to DOW USA, but he didn’t need do so (the treaty with Tokyo was if any Axis power was attacked, but this time the attacker was in fact an Axis power)

    I always wondered what if Philippines and the former Spanish colonies in the Pacific were independent or Spanish by that time (Cuban war 1898 not happened or Spain won it - probably due alien tech support or something  :mrgreen: ). Probably USA would not enter to WWII, because Japan would ignore any Spanish / independent Philippines fleet or simply stomp them without much effort and USA would not care a bit about Franco’s Pacific holdings … Japan could even try Spain join the Axis and use Philippines as allied base to attack India, DEI and Australia

    Any case, USA not entering in the war would probably mean or Axis victory or soviet armies in Paris, Madrid and Beijing … a more difficult Cold War


  • '10

    There are other more complicated reasons why UK/France declared war in 1939.

    Poland was just the “last straw”

    Rhine Land
    Austria
    Czechoslovakia

    Breaking the Lecarno Pact

    Breaking the Treaty of Versailles



  • @FieldMarshalGames:

    There are other more complicated reasons why UK/France declared war in 1939.

    Breaking the Treaty of Versailles

    Well yes, (Germany) breaking a slave treaty was not comforting for France and UK,as it was not for Americans who saw blacks trying to breaking free in the state of (i.e) Alabama…

    If you have the giant by the balls…  but oh well… but it turned out to be a “bit more difficult” than that…

    It lasted 6 years in Europe!


  • '10

    Like I said…  It is very complicated.

    It’s just not Black and White… or about Poland



  • I don’t think the UK and France wanted to go to war at all.  They still hadn’t paid off WWI and the horror of that war was still fresh in the memories of many veterans and citizens.    This is why Hitlers previous annexations were essentially unopposed.  There were also decent arguments for Hitlers early annexations also…primarily the German populations in Austria (the Greater Germany theory) and Czechoslovakia (with a large German minority).

    However, with each concession, Hitler became more bold and less defendable and at some point his aggression simply could not be overlooked by the UK and France - this happened at Poland.

    Also, regarding the USSR, there were many calls for a war against them as well.  But, as with Germany, no one wanted another WWI style quagmire.



  • The Allies went to war to defend Poland, only to give Poland away to 50 years of slavery to the Soviet Union.


  • '10

    @ABWorsham:

    The Allies went to war to defend Poland, only to give Poland away to 50 years of slavery to the Soviet Union.

    The sad thing is there was nothing they could do…  Churchill tried VERY hard, but the Soviets were keeping what they conquered.  There was no way the Western Allies and Commonwealth were going to fight ANOTHER World War just over the issue.



  • @FieldMarshalGames:

    @ABWorsham:

    The Allies went to war to defend Poland, only to give Poland away to 50 years of slavery to the Soviet Union.

    The sad thing is there was nothing they could do…  Churchill tried VERY hard, but the Soviets were keeping what they conquered.  There was no way the Western Allies and Commonwealth were going to fight ANOTHER World War just over the issue.

    Especially since Britain was about to lose the Indian army, which was larger than the British Army.


  • '10

    And even the relations with the Commonwealth members were stretched to the limit, like Australia.

    In the US, the public was also tired of the war and wanted it to end.



  • While the general public, and allied leaders at large were in no mood for more war, there were those who did want to address the Soviet threat directly.  Notable among them was General Patton:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Patton

    …Patton was relieved of duty after openly revolting against the punitive occupation directive JCS 1067.[54] His view of the war was that with Hitler gone, the German army could be rebuilt into an ally in a potential war against the Russians, whom Patton notoriously despised and considered a greater menace than the Germans. During this period, he wrote that the Allied victory would be in vain if it led to a tyrant worse than Hitler and an army of “Mongolian savages” controlling half of Europe. Eisenhower had at last had enough, relieving Patton of all duties and ordering his return to the United States…



  • @FieldMarshalGames:

    @ABWorsham:

    The Allies went to war to defend Poland, only to give Poland away to 50 years of slavery to the Soviet Union.

    The sad thing is there was nothing they could do…  Churchill tried VERY hard, but the Soviets were keeping what they conquered.  There was no way the Western Allies and Commonwealth were going to fight ANOTHER World War just over the issue.

    Its terrible ironic isnt it. We went to war in the first place to defend Poland only to abandon after it seemed another war would occur again if the allies tried to take it back.

    Personally I think the Americans have never really been happy with the responsibilities that come with being the most powerful nation on earth. Post WW1 had the Americans flexed their diplomatic and economic muscle the world could of been a much more peaceful place throughout the 20th century and we could of had a “Pax Americana” aka a long peroid of relative peace. Britain managed it for nearly a century from a small island in Western Europe with a relatively small population, had the Americans put their heart and soul into making the world a more peaceful place they would of suceeded who would of been able to stop them? The British, French and Soviets already wanted to maintain the status quo so mantaining the peace would of been relatively simple if the Americans with the co-operation Britain and France could of stopped Germany and Japan long before war occured and turned them into the economic superpowers they became post WW2.

    I respect the sacrifice of the American people in WW2, but by the same token thats what comes with being top dog you have to protect those not strong enough to protect themselves and help mediate disputes so they dont turn into wars in the first place.

    The Americans were conned into nothing, if anything it was reckless and irresponsible not to get involved earlier and make sure a war didnt occur in the first place. Even if the war was inevitability the U.S with the help of the British and French could of crushed the Germans in September 1939. I think it speaks volumes about American politicians that it was the British who stood up and fought against Germany even though it had by far the most to lose and in the end sacrificed its empire at the altar of freedom because the Americans were “busy” from September 1939 to December 1941.
    The problem with America is it wants desperately to not be like the British empire unfourtunetly thats more or less the way they should be bar the colonial oppression. They have to realise that you can take the positives of the British empire and leave the negatives and shape the world you want it to, or at least they could of before they made everyone hate them.



  • In Europe folks in the know saw what the Germans were. It would be like letting the Klan take over the US and invade Canada.

    The Western Europeans had been redrawing their lines in the mud for 1500 years with few major changes. Germany just pushed too far. The poor Brits knew they were stretched financially and needed help fighting a huge war on two fronts. Amazing they did as well as they did.

    I am on my cell phone……what do I recall about Churchill the Fins and the Soviets? I do believe pregmatism won out. Hitler was the more immediate threat than Stalin. Great choice to have to make. Probably helped out by it being the second time in thirty years Germany tried to take over the world and the Soviet ppl being less like Klansmen than the average German even though both their rulers were monsters.



  • @Octospire:

    The Americans were conned into nothing, if anything it was reckless and irresponsible not to get involved earlier and make sure a war didnt occur in the first place. Even if the war was inevitability the U.S with the help of the British and French could of crushed the Germans in September 1939. I think it speaks volumes about American politicians that it was the British who stood up and fought against Germany even though it had by far the most to lose and in the end sacrificed its empire at the altar of freedom because the Americans were “busy” from September 1939 to December 1941.

    That sure is food for thought.

    Finally, the USA had gotten alot out of it as well (German schientists and technology to name something)


  • 2007 AAR League

    @Octospire:

    I respect the sacrifice of the American people in WW2, but by the same token thats what comes with being top dog you have to protect those not strong enough to protect themselves and help mediate disputes so they dont turn into wars in the first place.

    The Americans were conned into nothing, if anything it was reckless and irresponsible not to get involved earlier and make sure a war didnt occur in the first place. Even if the war was inevitability the U.S with the help of the British and French could of crushed the Germans in September 1939. I think it speaks volumes about American politicians that it was the British who stood up and fought against Germany even though it had by far the most to lose and in the end sacrificed its empire at the altar of freedom because the Americans were “busy” from September 1939 to December 1941.
    The problem with America is it wants desperately to not be like the British empire unfourtunetly thats more or less the way they should be bar the colonial oppression. They have to realise that you can take the positives of the British empire and leave the negatives and shape the world you want it to, or at least they could of before they made everyone hate them.

    i just watched an episode of ww2 in color and it said that in july 1940 in a poll, only 8 percent of the american people wanted any part of another bloodbath brought to the world by europeans.  have far as americans were concerned, the europeans could go to hell.  And thats exactly what i think too. Why should american boys go and die over a power squabble b/w the elites of european nations?

    the very fact that the war monger FDR even tried to conjole americans into war to get 200k+ americans men killed is terrible.  our nation is founded on being the will of the people, and our elected officials being servamts and subserviant to the people.

    the very fact that america had to do everything in its power to antagonize japan into attacking so the europeans could get america into their war is just criminal.

    this is irregardless of you moral question of it was “better” that americans should go get killed and kill for a nation that it not their own



  • FDR did not make Hitler declare war on the US.


  • 2017 '16 '15 Organizer '14 Customizer '13 '12 '11 '10

    Don’t bring up Osama/terrorism and current POLITICAL statements. This is only about Germany back in 1939.

    Comments of this type were removed.



  • @balungaloaf:

    England and France said they would go to war to protect poland from invasion.  Then when poland is invaded they say this is the reason for war.  so they delcare war on germany.

    But what about the soviet union.  why in hell didnt they declare war on the soviet union?

    You’ve raised an excellent point, and one which I’d like to expand upon. The treaties that Britain and France signed with Poland in 1939 were very specific: Poland would receive protection from a German invasion, but not from a Soviet invasion. Moreover, France promised that if Germany attacked Poland, France would launch a general offensive against Germany within 15 days of general mobilization. That French attack would force Germany to fight a two-front war, and would prevent it from allocating the majority of its military assets to its eastern, Polish front.

    On paper, the combined French-Polish forces were at least the equal of the German forces. Together, Poland and France had both more men and more tanks than did Germany. In a long war, the large-scale advantage that British and French industry had over its German counterpart would dictate the outcome of the war; especially when military purchases from the United States were added to the mix. Polish military strategy therefore revolved around a fighting withdrawal during the first few weeks (while France prepared its promised general offensive against Germany), with the thought that lost ground could be regained after Germany was forced to shift its forces west. However, the general offensive France promised never came.

    The question we should be asking is, why did the French promise Poland a general offensive when it was clear their military strategy involved simply hiding behind their Maginot Line? While multiple explanations are possible, I personally believe that at least part of the reason for that involved Frances’ centuries-long anti-German foreign policy. At the end of the Thirty Years War, France imposed the disastrous Peace of Westphalia on Germany; and its policy since then had generally been to keep Germany divided and weak. France fostered disagreements between Germany and Poland by giving the latter nation West Prussia after WWI. To worsen the relations between the two nations situation, it made false promises to Poland as a counterweight to Germany’s efforts to reclaim Polish-occupied German territory.

    In 1939, the Polish government made France’s promises the centerpiece of their foreign policy. Polish leaders flatly refused to negotiate with Germany, and refused to return any Polish-occupied German territory to German control. This, even though Germany in 1938 had given Poland a portion of Czechoslovakia in an effort to improve relations between the two nations.

    Other nations in Eastern Europe had successfully maintained good diplomatic relations with Germany. Poland could have done so as well had it returned West Prussia to Germany, and had it continued to avoid any kind of alliance with the Soviet Union. The Polish leadership’s decision to rely on the promises of France, and to adopt an anti-German foreign policy, cost Poland its existence.



  • @Funcioneta:

    USA entered at war just because Japan attacked them, pure and simple. And Japan attacked USA because Japan needed the Dutch East Indies resources (for their war against China and because Japan only had oild reserves to some months), and they couldn’t take that for safe with yankees in the rear (Philippines). Then, Hitler was enough stupid to DOW USA, but he didn’t need do so (the treaty with Tokyo was if any Axis power was attacked, but this time the attacker was in fact an Axis power)

    I always wondered what if Philippines and the former Spanish colonies in the Pacific were independent or Spanish by that time (Cuban war 1898 not happened or Spain won it - probably due alien tech support or something  :mrgreen: ). Probably USA would not enter to WWII, because Japan would ignore any Spanish / independent Philippines fleet or simply stomp them without much effort and USA would not care a bit about Franco’s Pacific holdings … Japan could even try Spain join the Axis and use Philippines as allied base to attack India, DEI and Australia

    Any case, USA not entering in the war would probably mean or Axis victory or soviet armies in Paris, Madrid and Beijing … a more difficult Cold War

    You seem knowledgeable about WWII; and I’d like to add to your post.

    In 1940, Germany produced 10,000 military aircraft, and Britain produced 15,000. The U.S. sent large numbers of aircraft and aircraft engines to Britain. Together, British and American military planners had agreed that in several years’ time, the U.S. would produce over 70,000 military aircraft per year; with half that production being sent to Britain for use against Germany. In addition to all those U.S.-produced military aircraft, Germany also had to worry about the large quantities of other Lend-Lease aid the U.S. provided Britain and, later, the Soviet Union.

    As you correctly pointed out, Germany was under no treaty obligation to declare war on the United States. But Hitler reasoned that the most threatening aspect of the U.S.–its industrial might–was being turned against Germany anyway. A declaration of war would allow him to wage a full-scale submarine war against American shipping at a time when the U.S. Navy was occupied in the Pacific. Germany would sink the ships carrying tanks and artillery before they reached the Soviet Union.

    Hitler’s long-range plan for the war was to achieve a large-scale victory over the Soviet Union in 1942. Access to Soviet manpower, industrial capacity, and raw materials would allow Germany to keep pace with Britain and the U.S. in the air war. Victory over the Soviet Union would also go a long way towards securing Germany from land invasion, by eliminating its eastern front. While the German Army won a number of victories in the summer of 1942, and gained access to important food supplies and raw materials, the full-scale victory for which Hitler had hoped did not occur. The problem was the sheer size of the Red Army (which outnumbered its German counterpart nearly 4:1 in the fall of '41), and the fact that the Soviets outproduced Germany by 3:1 or more in most major land categories during 1942. Germany had largely solved the latter problem by 1944, but by then it was too late.

    Shortly after Germany invaded the Soviet Union, the U.S. imposed an oil embargo on Japan. Allegedly this was in response to Japan’s aggression in China. However, that latest round of aggression had begun in 1937; so the American response seemed a bit slow in the coming. That oil embargo, in combination with the U.S.'s plans to double the strength of its Pacific fleet and move that fleet’s center of operations from California to Hawaii, served to turn Japan’s focus away from potential conflicts with the Soviet Union. While Japan lacked the logistical capacity to be an immediate threat to conquer a large percentage of the Soviet Union’s population or industrial capacity; it could have taken Vladivostock; and generally denied the Soviets access to the Pacific. The desire to take pressure off the Soviets was one of several factors which led FDR to seek a war with Japan.

    Prior to the war, the U.S. had cracked the code Japanese diplomatic code. As such, the U.S. government knew more about the goings-on in Tokyo than did the Japanese ambassador to the U.S.! Specifically, FDR’s administration knew, in November of 1941, that if the U.S. asked for moderate concessions to have the oil embargo lifted, Japan would accept them. But if the U.S. asked for something far-reaching, Japan would go to war within a matter of weeks. Knowing this, FDR’s administration asked for very, very significant concessions from Japan indeed.

    Shortly after Pearl Harbor, Stalin shipped 100 divisions west–away from his eastern front and toward the German front. He knew that Japan would be too occupied with its war against the U.S. to launch a very powerful attack from Manchuria; so those 100 divisions were no longer needed in the east. Those 100 divisions arrived in the dead of winter, and had a devastating effect on Germany’s war effort. Germany had initially used only 100 divisions to invade the Soviet Union; so for the Soviets to have 100 extra divisions at such a key time proved critical.



  • @KurtGodel7:

    @Funcioneta:

    USA entered at war just because Japan attacked them, pure and simple. And Japan attacked USA because Japan needed the Dutch East Indies resources (for their war against China and because Japan only had oild reserves to some months), and they couldn’t take that for safe with yankees in the rear (Philippines). Then, Hitler was enough stupid to DOW USA, but he didn’t need do so (the treaty with Tokyo was if any Axis power was attacked, but this time the attacker was in fact an Axis power)

    I always wondered what if Philippines and the former Spanish colonies in the Pacific were independent or Spanish by that time (Cuban war 1898 not happened or Spain won it - probably due alien tech support or something  :mrgreen: ). Probably USA would not enter to WWII, because Japan would ignore any Spanish / independent Philippines fleet or simply stomp them without much effort and USA would not care a bit about Franco’s Pacific holdings … Japan could even try Spain join the Axis and use Philippines as allied base to attack India, DEI and Australia

    Any case, USA not entering in the war would probably mean or Axis victory or soviet armies in Paris, Madrid and Beijing … a more difficult Cold War

    You seem knowledgeable about WWII; and I’d like to add to your post.

    In 1940, Germany produced 10,000 military aircraft, and Britain produced 15,000. The U.S. sent large numbers of aircraft and aircraft engines to Britain. Together, British and American military planners had agreed that in several years’ time, the U.S. would produce over 70,000 military aircraft per year; with half that production being sent to Britain for use against Germany. In addition to all those U.S.-produced military aircraft, Germany also had to worry about the large quantities of other Lend-Lease aid the U.S. provided Britain and, later, the Soviet Union.

    As you correctly pointed out, Germany was under no treaty obligation to declare war on the United States. But Hitler reasoned that the most threatening aspect of the U.S.–its industrial might–was being turned against Germany anyway. A declaration of war would allow him to wage a full-scale submarine war against American shipping at a time when the U.S. Navy was occupied in the Pacific. Germany would sink the ships carrying tanks and artillery before they reached the Soviet Union.

    Hitler’s long-range plan for the war was to achieve a large-scale victory over the Soviet Union in 1942. Access to Soviet manpower, industrial capacity, and raw materials would allow Germany to keep pace with Britain and the U.S. in the air war. Victory over the Soviet Union would also go a long way towards securing Germany from land invasion, by eliminating its eastern front. While the German Army won a number of victories in the summer of 1942, and gained access to important food supplies and raw materials, the full-scale victory for which Hitler had hoped did not occur. The problem was the sheer size of the Red Army (which outnumbered its German counterpart nearly 4:1 in the fall of '41), and the fact that the Soviets outproduced Germany by 3:1 or more in most major land categories during 1942. Germany had largely solved the latter problem by 1944, but by then it was too late.

    Shortly after Germany invaded the Soviet Union, the U.S. imposed an oil embargo on Japan. Allegedly this was in response to Japan’s aggression in China. However, that latest round of aggression had begun in 1937; so the American response seemed a bit slow in the coming. That oil embargo, in combination with the U.S.'s plans to double the strength of its Pacific fleet and move that fleet’s center of operations from California to Hawaii, served to turn Japan’s focus away from potential conflicts with the Soviet Union. While Japan lacked the logistical capacity to be an immediate threat to conquer a large percentage of the Soviet Union’s population or industrial capacity; it could have taken Vladivostock; and generally denied the Soviets access to the Pacific. The desire to take pressure off the Soviets was one of several factors which led FDR to seek a war with Japan.

    Prior to the war, the U.S. had cracked the code Japanese diplomatic code. As such, the U.S. government knew more about the goings-on in Tokyo than did the Japanese ambassador to the U.S.! Specifically, FDR’s administration knew, in November of 1941, that if the U.S. asked for moderate concessions to have the oil embargo lifted, Japan would accept them. But if the U.S. asked for something far-reaching, Japan would go to war within a matter of weeks. Knowing this, FDR’s administration asked for very, very significant concessions from Japan indeed.

    Shortly after Pearl Harbor, Stalin shipped 100 divisions west–away from his eastern front and toward the German front. He knew that Japan would be too occupied with its war against the U.S. to launch a very powerful attack from Manchuria; so those 100 divisions were no longer needed in the east. Those 100 divisions arrived in the dead of winter, and had a devastating effect on Germany’s war effort. Germany had initially used only 100 divisions to invade the Soviet Union; so for the Soviets to have 100 extra divisions at such a key time proved critical.

    You make some excellent points. The U.S profitted enormously from the lend lease and arms sales to the Soviets and British, the U.S government definetly did what was best economically for the United States setting it up in the position of unchallenged economic super power even until the present day. The U.S wanted war with Japan in 1941 because it knew it could win had the Japanese had their oil and continued tearing through China eventually it would have the resources, man power and industrial capacity to challenge even the United States. The United States involvement in both the causes of the war (i.e Oil embargo on Japan) and its actual part in the war were both really preemptive strikes on empires that could no longer be controlled so that they could not one day challenge the economic and military might of the United States. Really the first shot of WW2 was the oil embargo on Japan, you take that out of the equation the hardline Japanese Generals never would of gained the support of the public and the majority of the leaders of the armed forces to go to war with the U.S in the first place. So really like you say Kurt they were just setting them up so the U.S armed forces could knock them down.



  • yeah… Roosevelt made the SA invasion map because the NEW DEAL was not working, that way when PH came, which he knew about, that he could lure us into ww2. so we sent millions of southern men to DIE for a socalist failure……sounds familiar ie: vietnam.



  • On paper, the combined French-Polish forces were at least the equal of the German forces. Together, Poland and France had both more men and more tanks than did Germany.
    In fact, bigger than German army.
    In September 1939
    French forces = 23 infantry divisions (51 in reserved)
    French motorised division = 7

    Poland = 30 Infantry divisions (9 in reserved)
    Poland cavalry brigade = 11
    Note: Tanks were distributed in battalion of 8 tanks.
    There was at least 2 battalion per brigade.
    Same thing for over 18 infantry division.
    Polish had approximately 1000 vehicles armored of any kind. (Most were UK and France vehicles) - Renault & Vickers-

    Germany = 39 (53 in reserved)
    german Tank divisions = 6
    German Motorised divisions = 4 (4 light motorised)


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