India IC



  • Hi folks, looking for some more pointers here!

    Since my post awhile back, I’m happy to say that after 12 games vs my co-worker, I still remain undefeated! The bad news is, he’s getting better!

    =p

    The last game was our closest by far - I took Germany only a turn before he would have had Russia. I’m starting to sweat!

    We play RR with 2hb and kamikazies. UGH

    My normal strategy has been to place an IC in India, and hold off Japan. That has worked until recently. Lately, during his J1, he has been throwing (and sacrificing) all he has, and usually gets it. As it has been a thorn in his side for the majority of our games, I can now count on him doing everything to capture it - so I am now afraid to build it.

    My question is - can (or should) the IC be held against an all out Japanese attack? I’ve a bit afraid to weaken Africa by moving British troops, but I would - and I also dislike losing the only Russian aircraft I’ll ever have.

    If it can’t be held, is it worth that massive damage you will surely inflict upon Japan in the early going? The times he has attacked he has lost most of his ground units, and a chunk of his airforce. A more experienced player would surely find this to their advantage - I haven’t been able to yet =p

    It also worries me a bit that he might NOT attack on J1, but continuously reinforce Burma until hes ready to take it, (while expanding/trading
    elsewhere) thus holding down a lot of those planes and giving Germany a nice early run at Africa. I’ve read that GB should be counterattacking with it’s forces in India, but in all the games i’ve played, I couldnt afford to move a unit out. Any suggestions?

    Lastly, without said IC what is a good way to Check Japanese aggression?

    I know thats the million dollar question, but I’m also sure there are good ways and bad ways 😃

    Do most of you send a few Russian INF east every turn? Do you wait for the other allies to come in?

    Sorry for all the questions, looking forward to the answers though… 😃

    ~Cheers


  • Moderator

    Generally an Indian IC will fall into Japan’s hands. Your opponent would probably be better off to wait a turn or 2 before trying to take it out.

    But here are some options -

    1. You’re probably going to need the troops from Afr to hold off Jap, but that isn’t too bad because by rd 2 you should be able to drop troops off in West Afr with the US or UK to hold Ger in check.

    2. Don’t build the factory and transport the troops to Afr and cripple Germany in Afr by rd 2. As US and UK concentrate on Ger, Rus can afford to send an inf or 2 to the East holding off Jap until Ger falls.
      2b) The US and UK continue to drop troops in Fin then to Kar, from there they can stay to defend or move East to Moscow to help against Jap. You should have sufficient inf and air power with US and UK to counter Jap as they approach Moscow.

    3. Pull out of India and reinforce Sink. Sink is much more important than India, IMHO. Leave 1 inf in Ind but move a ftr and inf to Sin. With 1 Rus inf from rd 1 you can have a significant force there. Here you hold Yak and Sink for as long as possible. With Rus inf support, while US and UK once again concentrate on Ger.

    These are just a few options, I’m sure there are more but I usually don’t buy the Indian IC so I’m sure I don’t know all the tricks.
    I usually buy an AC and tran with UK, land US ftrs there and concentrate on Ger. I leave it up to Rus to worry about Jap. I can usually afford to send 1-2 inf East to slow Japan down.



  • I totally agree with DM. The Jap player should wait a bit longer then attack India as DM said. Your observation that it’s all you can do to defend the IC is true of ALL asian ICs in the early going. It’s an anchor to say the least. By having freedom to move your force you can choose the tempo so to speak. Apply pressure points to force the enemy to shift resources to counter said presure points. It’s debatable what to do with the brit forces in India but DM’s assertion that the idea is to fight a delaying action against Japan is bang on.

    Japan wins by cranking up her income. She needs to capture the ring of territories around russia and sooner or later be able to occupy 1 of these in force in order to force Russia out of Karelia or risk losing Moscow.

    Japan has an advantage in that if Russia has 1 INF on each territory, Japan could play to her air power strength. Attack the 3 territories Russia is likely to own to the east of Moscow with 2 INF each and 2 air units each. Japan takes all 3 territories perhaps losing a single INF. Since a smart Japan player builds transports and infantry she has infantry to carry this out. By the time Japan CAN do this the supply line is established, albietly it’s 3 builds long for the infantry attacking KAZ, NOV and EVE.

    The result of this is that Russia must attack 3 territories, 2 of which have 2 INF. Russia only has 2 fighters and can’t retake these 3 territories unless commiting many more units which would just be crushed next turn anyways.

    The solution to this is getting a little help from your friends. The allies by round 2 should have taken Norway with a brave brit or the US player. DM’s build/move suggestions are bang on for the allies. They are pumping in mass forces into Norway. At some point the fleet does a combined move to Algeria dropping off a multinational force. Going big or small has it’s advantages. Going big wastes forces for a few turns. But in a few turns you’ll need them in Syria/persia to hold Japan out of Africa. Going small allows more resources into Norway and they’re closer to Persia from Norway then Algeria.

    The allies need lots of infantry in Karelia initially but don’t make the mistake of having all brit/us infantry in Karelia and devote the russians to Japan. You will of course need a stack of Brit/US inf in Karelia parked for a long time, however, having just a few Brit/US tanks with a few infantry moving with russia is important. In this way each ally can clear 1-2 Jap territories with lots of air power to gain the edge in attrition. If Japan is trading 8 units/round just to maintain their current income they can hardly build up faster than russia can.

    I have often seen a stack of 5 US tanks wipe to Persia from karelia and knock out a few advance Jap units. Then some russian tanks and air (landing after attacking elsewhere). Then the brits move in with a few tanks and air units. Any Japanese factories are now threatened. Japan pulls back ready to crush the allies and the allies just move the pressure point over using a blocking territory to stymie any Japanese counter attack. It’s hard to rule the world when playing hide and seek in your own backyard.

    BB



  • Cool, thanks for the advice!

    As I see it, if I were to completely reinforce it, I could have 4 inf and 3 planes there by J1.

    The most Japan could hit it with would be 4 inf, 4 planes 1 bomber.

    Not having an odds calculator handy, this battle looks relatively even.

    (about 3 hits each per turn?)

    I -think- it would be worth the loss of the IC to potentially cripple the Japanese air force (he will lose 2 automatically, hopefully more during the fight)

    Other ideas i’ve recently been playing around with, but not tried yet -

    Moving the 3 Russian tanks south into Kazakh or Novosbirisk. I’m not sure why I didn’t think of this before, but it seems to me they should easily retake India, as there will probably be only one inf there.

    Moving the Egypt tank east, so on UK 2, in conjunction with the bomber and any planes able to make it, they could try to retake or reinforce as needed.

    All of this assumes Germany wont be shuffling men/planes to help out - but it seems that even the loss of the russian tanks would be worth this effort; I love the idea of throttling Japan early, I hate to give it up 😃



  • Thanks for the post BB! 😃

    It seems to me that unless taken early, India becomes quite insurmountible. (at least when played by me! =p)

    Approximating here, but if things go well, on turn 2 I will have 7 men and 3 planes; turn 3 ten men 5-6 planes. From then on, 3 men and a plane (from England) as cash flow permits. At this point any battle there is a huge ouchie for Japan, unless they ignore everything else on the board. Either way, this is the delaying tatic it was meant to be, and will probably hold back Japan for at least a few turns. They just cant ignore it.

    Excepting the last game, I’ve never been in a position where Japan has owned the 3 surrounding Russian territories, and I’ve had to swap for them. (Lucky me!)

    But realistically, this scenario won’t be taking place for quite a few turns yet, and by then the fate of the IC will have had to be reconciled. I understand the strategy of reinforcing with other allied units to help keep those territories, I just haven’t had to do it yet 😃

    In this scenario, Russia will have no planes to counter with, leaving it up to the USA and UK. That’s fine with me. others might think it bad to ever lose the Russian planes, as they cant afford tanks….

    According to the Japanese strategy they use their air power to easily take those Russian lands; hopefully though, the large majority of them will have been sacrificed. The question is, is this worth it, considering the losses of material and the IC the allies will take?

    My gut tells me that losing 3-4 planes in the first turn is a crippling blow to Japan, but then again, y’all have set me straight on many other false ideas i’ve had, so I thought I’d ask the pros.

    Thanks again for the input!



  • My experience and standard logistics show that an Ind IC, with the right moves(see above 🙂 ), will help Allies hold Ind til J6-7 v. a quality opponent … J9-10 v. a mediocre opponent. Can you take Germany in this time frame?

    If Germany is not building up in E Eur(with 1-3 inf in Ukraine),
    then you might consider moving the Rus arm +1 inf or to Nov, and
    pull back the SFE arm to stack with inf in Yak or
    pull back the SFE arm to stack with inf in Nov. with 1 inf +1 arm.

    Do not move 3 arm to Nov. as it prevents you from keeping pressure on Germany(this move weakens Kar too much), attacking in in E Eur and/or F/N. Remember, three Allies(working together)putting the squeeze on Germany is the quickest way to victory … Unless you have an idiot or lucky dog for an opponent. 🙂

    But don’t let me stop you from trying something different 😉 .



  • @K-Ration:

    My normal strategy has been to place an IC in India, and hold off Japan. That has worked until recently. Lately, during his J1, he has been throwing (and sacrificing) all he has, and usually gets it. As it has been a thorn in his side for the majority of our games, I can now count on him doing everything to capture it - so I am now afraid to build it.

    I’m the most experienced Japanese Player in our group. And if the UK plants a factory next to burma, I always expend maximum effort to seize it before the UK can build units there. Even by using the transport to reinforce India with troops from Africa, the Japanese can still send three infantry, three fighters and a bomber to blow up your fighter and slay your four infantry.

    The solution is simple: Russia must reinforce India on turn one with a fighter or two. This weakens their defense on the Eastern Front, but makes the thorn in Japan’s side sting all the more. The USA should also move whatever surviving units they have to defend the Indian Factory. Combined with a Russian invasion of Manchuria on turn two, you can annoy Japan to no end.

    In exchange for the Russian fighters, you may wish to consider moving the RAF in London to the Eastern Front, but since this occurs after the German turn, the Soviet defense is still weakened, at least for one turn.



  • @K-Ration:

    The most Japan could hit it with would be 4 inf, 4 planes 1 bomber.

    This calculation is incorrect, as is my other post where I state that Japan can hit India with three planes, a bomber and three infantry.

    The plane from the Philipines and the plane from Japan cannot reach India and land on turn one (Sea Zones count as movement, remember? And you can’t land on a territory you just conquered) Therefore, the most that can attack India on turn one, assuming that the transport from the Philipines cannot land troops in India, is 3 infantry from Burma, the fighter in Burma, the fighter from Manchuria, and the Bomber from Japan.

    This force will be faced with four british infantry, a british fighter, and two russian fighters. The Japanese are outnumbered in all respects.

    If you ignore pearl harbor, it becomes possible for Japanese carrier aircraft from the Carolines and Philipenes to sink the UK transport screening India and allow two extra infantry from the Phillipenes to land in India, but this allows the US Navy to consolidate and wreak havoc.

    If I were playing Japan, I would pursue the transports and Infantry policy and try to take India by outproducing and outshipping Infantry to Asia. This may become possible on turn two if the US player is reluctant to retreat into India, or the Japanese can force the UK to fight alone by invading both China and Sinkiang, abandoning Burma to the UK counterattack (or reinforcing it with four infantry and aircraft).


  • Moderator

    I think in this particular scenerio, K-Ration was playing with kamikazies, so those extra planes could make it.
    But I agree it is still a bad Rd 1 attack for J. You automatically throw away 2 ftrs plus what ever else gets lost, not to mention the US Pearl fleet.
    By rd 2 and 3 Jap, with trans, can be unloading tons of inf and take India then with less risk.
    I also think without the Russian ftrs in Kar, Ger may be able to do some heavy damge to Russia. Now the Jap threat becomes secondary as Germany could be marching on Moscow soon.



  • You should assume that if it’s such a crippling blow for Japan to lose it’s airforce on round 1 then Japan probably ought not to do it.

    It’s debatable how many units you can get there past 1 round in the future, the point is you only build 3 land units/round and the Japs with 4 transports at the start of round 2 can get 8 land units per round to bear. If you have to build ftrs in england and fly them to India for protection it’s a losing battle. Land units win land battles.

    I don’t doubt you can be a thorn in the side of Japan but you may find that if you split up the Brit forces you end up with 2 forces neither of which can project enough power to do much.

    Building land units in England, moving them to Norway gets them to India but a few turns later is all. No building a factory and AA so that’s 20 IPC of equipment you’re ahead.

    BB


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