• This raid seems standard- whether a Sealion occurs or not.  If you leave this navy alone, Italy can be a force quickly.  However, when successful, it takes a while for Italy to get back in it and makes the game even more Allied advantaged which I don’t like either.

    I’d like to see the setup change that involves putting the Italian navy together in one seazone- either z95 or z97- what do you think???

    Taranto is so effective as it stands that it is the difference between an English Africa or an Italian one in later rounds from my experience!!!


  • Yeah, that is the norm……I personally hate it…but as the Allies it is too tempting not to do it.

    My gaming group has been talking about the consolidation of the Italian fleet for weeks now.

    Hey Questioneer, is that something to throw into your Beta?


  • I think the Taranto raid is just fine, it gives the Brits a chance in Africa instead of having to rely on the Indian airforce. It is also historically accurate but more importantly it forces the Italian player to be efficient and creative. The Italians can often times preserve their fleet, or part of it, with German air support. all they really need is a transport to survive.


  • The entire UK fleet gets destroyed G1….
    They are under threat of invasion for the first 3-4 turns of the game…
    The UK objectives are unachievable…at least for a really long time…
    There income is split up…
    No Taranto raid = quick loss of Africa and more UK IPC’s gone…

    Taranto is plenty fair…


  • If you allow coastal AB’s to scramble just one air unit (ftr/tac) into each sz that it touches you will fix many problems that have been talked to death w/o changing set-up…

    1. Entire UK navy gets destroyed G1. The RAF being able to scramble just one ftr into sz 109 and/or 110 will force Germany to make some different choices. They will have to over compensate for the possibility of a ftr, that will leave them tin in other battles. Part of the UK navy has a better chance to survive (as it should).

    2. Most of the Italian navy is sunk UK1. If the Italian AB could scramble just one ftr off the boot into each sz (95/97) the Taranto Raid would be riskier for the UK.

    Both of these could still happen, but the out comes may be different. Both sides would benefit. It would also help Germany protect the Baltic/Denmark. Russia could send a ftr to def its BB. This would be a fun rule to test. It is kinda lame that an AB on and island can scramble unlimited air units, but a coastal AB give no protection to your fleet or against an amphib.

  • Customizer

    I’ve tried the game by adding 2 Italian subs in Taranto seazone and it works quite well. Britain still has a statistical advantage in the battle if it goes all out. however Britain typically scores no more than 3 hits the first round which means that Italy could choose to submerge the subs at the end of the round and use them for next round’s counter attack. And yes I realize that UK has a destroyer, but assuming the dice gods dont hate Italy, Britain will likely take out its destroyer before its fighter or tac. Basically it still allows for Britain to do the attack but its more of a gamble since a lot rides on the first round. Plus its somewhat historical since Italy had 84 operational submarines in June 1940.

    Try the two subs. It really makes Britain ponder the attack instead of it being a now brainer. If the attack does commence, players choice of causalities make a huge impact. Seriously how often does someone chose to lose a battleship to save a sub?


  • @Stockus13:

    Yeah, that is the norm……I personally hate it…but as the Allies it is too tempting not to do it.

    My gaming group has been talking about the consolidation of the Italian fleet for weeks now.

    Hey Questioneer, is that something to throw into your Beta?

    Yeah, I like Bob’s idea of adding 2 subs to the Taranto seazone.  The problem with combining the fleets is that UK could claim- Yugo.  Combining them in the other seazone means that Taranto can’t happen.  I still would like the option of Taranto, I just don’t like it crippling Italy right off the bat.

    Adding 2 subs means that UK could still damage Italy’s navy yet not wipe them out the first round.  Bob’s got the best solution I heard so far.  And yes, Italy had quite a few subs historically during the war.
    🙂


  • @WILD:

    If you allow coastal AB’s to scramble just one air unit (ftr/tac) into each sz that it touches you will fix many problems that have been talked to death w/o changing set-up…

    1. Entire UK navy gets destroyed G1. The RAF being able to scramble just one ftr into sz 109 and/or 110 will force Germany to make some different choices. They will have to over compensate for the possibility of a ftr, that will leave them tin in other battles. Part of the UK navy has a better chance to survive (as it should).

    2. Most of the Italian navy is sunk UK1. If the Italian AB could scramble just one ftr off the boot into each sz (95/97) the Taranto Raid would be riskier for the UK.

    Both of these could still happen, but the out comes may be different. Both sides would benefit. It would also help Germany protect the Baltic/Denmark. Russia could send a ftr to def its BB. This would be a fun rule to test. It is kinda lame that an AB on and island can scramble unlimited air units, but a coastal AB give no protection to your fleet or against an amphib.

    This is an interesting idea that I have pondered also.  I’m just wondering if you would be opening up another can of worms that we don’t see if we did this.


  • The raid is the first thing England can do to make Sealion easier on the Germans so its a tough choice. Try the raid and building a tank in that south african factory, PLEASE!

  • TripleA

    @questioneer:

    Taranto Raid- standard???

    in all but one of my games germany has built a carrier to support its battleship and cruiser. with the exception of the one game UK has done the Taranto Raid.

    so in my games taranto raid is standard.

    the one game exception my opponent was germany and did not buy a carrier. uk used the fleet to hit the german navy instead of the taranto raid. in hindsight i still might have been better off with taranto raid instead of sinking germany’s navy.


  • @allweneedislove:

    @questioneer:

    Taranto Raid- standard???

    in all but one of my games germany has built a carrier to support its battleship and cruiser. with the exception of the one game UK has done the Taranto Raid.

    so in my games taranto raid is standard.

    the one game exception my opponent was germany and did not buy a carrier. uk used the fleet to hit the german navy instead of the taranto raid. in hindsight i still might have been better off with taranto raid instead of sinking germany’s navy.

    Dunno, i had that chance to wipe out the german navy too, and i didn’t regret it.

    But the Taranto raid, i’m not sure, delaying italy and keeping african IPC’s for UK is good… unless you lose UK, of course. So that should stay top priority.

    I wonder, does not sending the TB to UK (and using it for taranto) make a big difference in the end?


  • I’ve being waiting to try a British tactic where I forgo the Taranto raid in favour of bringing the British fleet up in defense of a German Sealion. As follows:

    GB1:
    Buy
    1 fig (10)
    1 inf (3)
    save (16)

    NCM:
    1 tac SZ91 to Lon
    1 fig Lon to SZ92
    1 DD 1 CV SZ91 to SZ92
    1 fig Alx to SZ92
    1 inf 1 arm Que to either Gib (if Germany is in position to assault) or to Lon

    Collect Income
    29+5+16=50 IPC

    GB2
    Buy
    2 CV (32)
    2 DD (16)
    save (0)

    NCM:
    1 DD 1 CV 2 fig SZ92 to SZ110
    3 fig 1 tac Lon to SZ110

    Mob Units
    2 CV 2 DD SZ110

    Final analysis:
    3 DD, 3 CV, 1 tac, 5 fig SZ110 = 6 2’s, 1 3, 5 4’s (average 6 hits)
    Germany could potentially attack with:
    2 SS, 1 CA, 1 CV, 1 dBB, 4 fig 3 tac 1 bom = 2 2’s, 5 3’s, 5 4’s (average 7 hits)

    BUT, Great Britain can absorb 3 of these hits with her carriers. This leaves us with:
    1 DD 2 dCV, 1 tac, 5 fig (average 5 hits)
    Germany:
    1 dBB, 3 fig 3 tac 1 bom (average 5 hits)

    Continuing onwards, the British would lose their low hitting 2’s before her 4’s, and Germany will lose her precious airforce. In any case, Germany wouldn’t be able to do a Ger3 Sealion. Those 11 transports? Useless.


  • I remember reading somewhere a suggestion that Italy would be neutral with the U.K. until I1 or attacked an Allied power.  That would fix the Taranto Raid (if it is even a problem) without adding or moving units.


  • @Butcher:

    I remember reading somewhere a suggestion that Italy would be neutral with the U.K. until I1 or attacked an Allied power.  That would fix the Taranto Raid (if it is even a problem) without adding or moving units.

    And it would make the UK even more useless, removing its power in the one area it has a fighting chance.


  • Which is why I put the disclaimer about it possibly not being a problem.  If the U.K. was not supposed to seriously consider the Taranto Raid, I would think that they would have other targets.


  • What other targets? The German fleet, if it has a CV, is to strong to be attacked. The best it can do is withdraw to Canada, leaving Africa for the Italians and leaving the UK fully dependent on American help to even retake Africa, while with the Taranto Raid, it can at least trade Egypt until the US comes in


  • Hence why they consider the Taranto Raid.  Make sure you’re reading everything carefully before asking questions  :roll:


  • I wonder, does not sending the TB to UK (and using it for taranto) make a big difference in the end?

    No, not really, Germany can Sealion G3 or G4.  I’ve played 4 games where UK ignored the Taranto raid- it gave Italy and the Axis a fighting chance.  The raid cripples Italy in time for the US to regain Africa, Italy won’t get past Egypt.

    Not doing the raid- you can kiss most of Africa goodbye and Italy actually becomes a force making 25-30 a turn or more.

    Simply put, if you don’t do it, Allies will pay.

    Some ideas:

    1.) WILD BILL’s AB rule change on scrambling: 6max for islands, 2 or 3 max on coastals

    2.) Bob’s idea- add 2 subs to the Taranto seazone

    3.) Combine the Italian fleets in one seazone

    Others???  Which do you like best???  I like one of the first 2 mentioned the best.


  • @questioneer:

    No, not really, Germany can Sealion G3 or G4.  I’ve played 4 games where UK ignored the Taranto raid- it gave Italy and the Axis a fighting chance.  The raid cripples Italy in time for the US to regain Africa, Italy won’t get past Egypt.

    Not doing the raid- you can kiss most of Africa goodbye and Italy actually becomes a force making 25-30 a turn or more.

    Simply put, if you don’t do it, Allies will pay.

    Some ideas:

    1.) WILD BILL’s AB rule change on scrambling: 6max for islands, 2 or 3 max on coastals

    2.) Bob’s idea- add 2 subs to the Taranto seazone

    3.) Combine the Italian fleets in one seazone

    Others???  Which do you like best???  I like one of the first 2 mentioned the best.

    Indeed, when i didn’t raid, italy got too strong for a long time…

    As for these 3 ideas: can UK join all its ships in 1 zone too then? 😉

    edit: fixed some wrong quoting

  • '10

    Two things;

    First, This is not really a Taranto Raid as that was done with planes.  What you are talking about involves the sacrifice of The British Med Fleet.

    Second, Check out my thread on AAHG40.  I have made an alternate set-up that allows for a REAL Taranto raid with planes AND gives the Italians a stronger chance to defend against it.

    http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=20976.0


  • Personally, I’m not big on cookie cutter openings.  I’m also not a fan of attacking the italian navy turn one either.  This means that your navy is likely destroyed by german air turn two and you need to rebuild from scratch.  If you keep the uk navy safe, you can build on your starting forces and have more options to take the initiative and fight on your terms where you like.  But that’s just me.

  • '10

    @kungfujew:

    Personally, I’m not big on cookie cutter openings.   I’m also not a fan of attacking the italian navy turn one either.  This means that your navy is likely destroyed by german air turn two and you need to rebuild from scratch.  If you keep the uk navy safe, you can build on your starting forces and have more options to take the initiative and fight on your terms where you like.  But that’s just me.

    I agree.  I like to use different options every game…  Makes it more FUN and keeps the enemy guessing.


  • Indeed!


  • Sea Lion is a big concern for London and when it is pulled off easily it greatly helps the Axis.

    Germany gets soo much money to spend G2.


  • @cts17:

    I’ve being waiting to try a British tactic where I forgo the Taranto raid in favour of bringing the British fleet up in defense of a German Sealion. As follows:

    GB1:
    Buy
    1 fig (10)
    1 inf (3)
    save (16)

    NCM:
    1 tac SZ91 to Lon
    1 fig Lon to SZ92
    1 DD 1 CV SZ91 to SZ92
    1 fig Alx to SZ92
    1 inf 1 arm Que to either Gib (if Germany is in position to assault) or to Lon

    Collect Income
    29+5+16=50 IPC

    GB2
    Buy
    2 CV (32)
    2 DD (16)
    save (0)

    NCM:
    1 DD 1 CV 2 fig SZ92 to SZ110
    3 fig 1 tac Lon to SZ110

    Mob Units
    2 CV 2 DD SZ110

    Final analysis:
    3 DD, 3 CV, 1 tac, 5 fig SZ110 = 6 2’s, 1 3, 5 4’s (average 6 hits)
    Germany could potentially attack with:
    2 SS, 1 CA, 1 CV, 1 dBB, 4 fig 3 tac 1 bom = 2 2’s, 5 3’s, 5 4’s (average 7 hits)

    BUT, Great Britain can absorb 3 of these hits with her carriers. This leaves us with:
    1 DD 2 dCV, 1 tac, 5 fig (average 5 hits)
    Germany:
    1 dBB, 3 fig 3 tac 1 bom (average 5 hits)

    Continuing onwards, the British would lose their low hitting 2’s before her 4’s, and Germany will lose her precious airforce. In any case, Germany wouldn’t be able to do a Ger3 Sealion. Those 11 transports? Useless.

    Germany could just go around SZ 110 to drop on the other side of England in SZ 109 (which UK could block with a DD).  But they could just drop the troops off in Scotland from SZ 119 or SZ 111 and go from there for G4.  Depends on what they really want to do then with those 11 transports (just go for broke in Novograd?)  Then they build a bunch of subs to use as fodder to kill the fleet next round.

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