Battle of Britain

https://www.facebook.com/USPacificFleet/videos/10159185622247970

to me it would have to the junkers ju-87…that sound it made when coming in for the attack was deafening and it would terrify you on the ground

Great points - this is not the version of history I was taught in school, but thankfully with access to the internet and the benefit of hindsight we are able to learn some of this untold history now.

@aequitas-et-veritas

I think you overestimate Germany’s ability to not get fooled.

Germany was fooled several times-just look at what the Soviets did:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj7mfyEm_3zAhVeJzQIHWXCB54QFnoECAUQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FRussian_military_deception&usg=AOvVaw3hgbVBMWuU26iUG3iTRmQK

If you’re saying D-Day and the deception in Operation Bagration (and all the other times on the Eastern Front) was all due to betrayal, it should be well known.

In response to your questions, there are several clear answers:

Most German submarines were destroyed by now, and the rest would have been near Pas De Calais, where Germany expected the Allies to land.

And there were German naval units in Normandy-several torpedo boats, or E-boats, which sunk a Norwegian destroyer, the only German naval victory on D-Day. There were also these German naval assets at Normandy: 3 torpedo boats, 29 fast attack craft, and 72 minesweepers. If there truly was sabotage these would have disappeared as well, and the secret traitor would not have been uncovered anyway by the Nazis if we don’t even know his identity today.

The stripping of Luftwaffe and anti aircraft assets were probably done to reinforce the forces in the Defence Of The Reich campaign, after the Big Week which drove German aircraft numbers down to irreplaceable levels:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Week

As for the ordering of targeting devices from Normandy, it’s the same reason why Rommel left for his wife: Inaccurate German weather reports.

As for the two agents or spies your were talking about, one of them was a double agent (like Germany’s entire spy network in Britain), and simply bad luck and quarrelling at higher levels in the German command prevented them from using potentially important information from the other agent.

I cannot find evidence about the problems with the Panzer Lehr Division that you talked about, but I do believe you on this information.

The Allies were much stronger than thought-analysis shows that even if Germany was able to get the full plan from a dead body after the Exercise Tiger disaster (which involved an attack by Germans ships against troops preparing for D-Day), and Germany transferred all of the Fifth Panzer Army to the beaches, and Rommel stayed, the Allies could not have been repelled-shore bombardment and air power would have broken up panzer forces enough to prevent a collapse. The war would have simply lasted longer, or the Soviet would have conquered more of Germany.

Honestly, I find it quite interesting that you came up or mentioned this theory, as it makes for good discussion. I hope we have some great discussions about the German side of D-Day!

Finally, as for the original question, the Fifthteenth Army was eventually used at Normandy, where it was devastated as well as at the Falaise Pocket. The main problem with Operation Market Garden were the Allies not taking seriously Dutch resistance intelligence the fact that German panzer divisions were refitting right where the Allies were going to land. I think if the Fifthteenth Army was at Normandy on the first day, it might have been much harder for the Allies, as they would not have stablished as secured beachheads.

Those are some good ideas but i thought this was The Battle for Greece? Shouldn’t we keep this just to that battle?

Greece…Crete and dodacanese Island.
With that, players may used,planes, warships and paratroopers.

We got our ass kicked, whats to know?

The most underrated naval commander was Raymond Spruance, who assumed command at the Battle of Midway following the damage to the Yorktown, and commanded at the Battle of the Philippine Sea in June of 1944.  Overshadowed by Halsey, he never would have fallen for the Japanese carrier lure at the Battle of Leyte Gulf.

As for underrated battles, probably the most decisive underrated battle was fought prior to WW2 starting, between the Japanese and the Russians at Nomohan/Khalkin-Gol on the northeastern border of Manchuria.  The Japanese decided after their shattering defeat by the Russians that it would be safer to attack south for resources to sustain the China war than to attack the Soviet Union.

The other would be the campaign to isolate Rabaul from August of 1942 through February of 1944, which aside from costing the Japanese heavily in irreplaceable warships and transports, also essentially destroyed their carrier air power far more thoroughly than the losses at Midway.

Lastly for simple unbelievable guts and determination, the low-level attack by B-24 Liberators on the Ploesti oil refineries on August 1, 1943.

Imperious Leader nailed the last comment.

Japan entered the War with the West with 51 Army Divisions; however 27 where already in use in China. Thirteen of the remaining divisions were facing the Red Army. Japan was willing to head to war with the Allies with ten to eleven availiable divisions!

Japan would quickly start recruiting from it’s 73 million population, but Japan kept the same habit of attacking the Allies with smaller forces.