Lets talk Germany Round 1



  • Purchase - 1 Bomber 2 Tanks 6 Infantry

    Current opening moves (considering USSR has takein WR and Ukraine)

    Take back Ukraine (which can be pesky sometimes, 3 USSR tanks or more)
    Take Karelia

    1 BB 1 tranny to sz15 - attack Anglo with 2 inf 2 tanks and 1 fig from Balkans
    2 Figs to sz12
    1 sub 1 Fig 1 Bomber to sz2

    My dilemma is this … there are some risky moves here.

    If you lose a fig or even both in sz13 and lose the battle in sz2 thats hard to absorb.  Also a destroyer can kill a solo BB, doesnt happen that often but it can happen.

    Loseing the sz2 battle means UK will have 2 transports as well.

    That being said, if you win all these battles, you have one heck of a German open!

    How about sending the sub to sz1 killing one UK tranny, the Bomber  to Anglo and the fig in the Balkans to escort the BB in sz15.

    In non combat 1 sub and des to sz7, 1 sub to sz3 … 3 subs surounding UK and with coordinating Bombers/Figs standing by.

    I always heavily fortify Norway including 1 Fig, 1 tank from Eastern Europe and even transporting a unit or two there (considering I have a transport still) also protecting Western Europe from a round 1 UK assault.

    For the next couple rounds I purchase 1 Fig 1 Tank and the rest Infantry then adding more tanks after round 3 or so.

    Maybe it all comes down to being a risky or a conservative player … personaly I like to get a good foundation early, risking more in later rounds

    Adapting to each game is what makes A&A so fun to me.

    So … I understand killing the UK BB is important, if you dont attack sz2, how much will it really set you back ?

    Thanks for the feedback.


  • '16 '15 '10

    Sexy G1. :mrgreen:

    Biggest risk is probably the 74% or so for SZ2 (more like 83% in low luck).  Then you got the 9% (in dice) and 6.5% chances of failing in Egy and 15.

    In dice, I send 3 figs to 13.  2 suffices for low luck.

    2 bombers G1 might be worth a look. The merits of 2 bombers against inexperienced opposition speaks for itself.  But also against experienced players–it may force the Allies to delay their shuck which will offset the cost of that 2nd bmb down the road.

    Re. SZ2, the main risk is the defending sub hitting, which is 1/6 so not great but it will happen time to time.

    I’m not yet convinced SZ2 is the best move.  SZ1 and SZ10 are good alternatives and free up the bomber for Egypt.  More conservative players may want to make use of them.  If you bring the bomber to Egy then G1 is almost risk-proof.

    But when SZ2 works Axis is in an excellent position, so it’s hard to pass it up.



  • @Paulzy:

    So … I understand killing the UK BB is important, if you dont attack sz2, how much will it really set you back ?

    If you’re not attacking SZ2 then another option is to buy 5 inf, 5 arm and to move everything to Karelia on G1, if there’s only 1-2 enemy units on Ukraine. The gamble is to prevent the Russians from retaking it and fortifying West Russia. It depends on the initial amount of luck (Russian units killed on R1) and the Russian buys, because the German forces might be counterattacked by an aggressive Russian player.



  • Well, IMHO, in V4, contrary to the revised, it is not the best opening with russia to attack ukraine R1.

    I belive if you do the standard ukr, wer opening, the G7 R1 attack (SZ2, SZ5, SZ13, SZ 15, AE, kar and ukr) if succesfull, which is by far more then 50 %, gives the axis dramatic advantage. Hence, I play the norwegian gambit with russia R1, i leave ukraine and i go there with 10 tanks only R3.



  • Provided you are not concerned with capturing Ukraine, it can be worth fighting for a round or two to kill the German infantry at the front.  Killing those fodder units plus retreating to Caucusus will save the factory and lower his counter on WRus.  I also like attacking Belorussia.  Its an easy win, plus kills 3 German infantry.  The only problem is German can and will counter you there killing any units you leave there.

    I’ve been leaning towards taking WRus heavy as my only combat.  I like attacking Norway, but at the same time I would rather have the Germans attack Sz2 than capture Africa.  That bomber can be crucial in either battle.



  • I’m surprised more people aren’t suggesting attacking the American fleet G1 with that sub… 1/3rd chance you sink 2 transports and 1 cruiser for nothing (I did some simple math… 1/3rd chance you sink them, 1/3rd chance they sink you - 2/3 * 1/2, and a 1/3rd chance a second round of combat, so basically it’s a 50/50.  But if you win, you do 26 IPC worth of damage, vs. taking 6 IPC worth of damage if you lose).  I personally consider this strategy kind of cheap, as it’s a decent risk but extremely high reward.  Of course, it will put the UK in a much better position as you are letting their navy start out at nearly full strength.  Perhaps that is the balance - having to deal with a full strength UK navy?

    Thoughts on the G1 sub move?



  • @Rakeman:

    I’m surprised more people aren’t suggesting attacking the American fleet G1 with that sub… 1/3rd chance you sink 2 transports and 1 cruiser for nothing (I did some simple math… 1/3rd chance you sink them, 1/3rd chance they sink you - 2/3 * 1/2, and a 1/3rd chance a second round of combat, so basically it’s a 50/50.  But if you win, you do 26 IPC worth of damage, vs. taking 6 IPC worth of damage if you lose).  I personally consider this strategy kind of cheap, as it’s a decent risk but extremely high reward.  Of course, it will put the UK in a much better position as you are letting their navy start out at nearly full strength.  Perhaps that is the balance - having to deal with a full strength UK navy?

    Thoughts on the G1 sub move?

    This is bad game design, turning A&A into a gambling den. Our playing group plays with the “gentleman rule”, moving the German sub from SZ 8 to SZ 7. It can reach all important SZ’s from there, except the one with the American navy. Problem solved, you’re welcome Larry 😉

    About the “full strength UK navy”, you’re still killing the med fleet with air, so the navy is still cramped, and the bmr is useful in egypt too. And it’s not like Germany lacks any targets for fighters on R1.



  • @HolKann:

    This is bad game design, turning A&A into a gambling den.

    Could you elaborate more on that?



  • @Rakeman:

    I’m surprised more people aren’t suggesting attacking the American fleet G1 with that sub… 1/3rd chance you sink 2 transports and 1 cruiser for nothing (I did some simple math… 1/3rd chance you sink them, 1/3rd chance they sink you - 2/3 * 1/2, and a 1/3rd chance a second round of combat, so basically it’s a 50/50.  But if you win, you do 26 IPC worth of damage, vs. taking 6 IPC worth of damage if you lose).  I personally consider this strategy kind of cheap, as it’s a decent risk but extremely high reward.  Of course, it will put the UK in a much better position as you are letting their navy start out at nearly full strength.  Perhaps that is the balance - having to deal with a full strength UK navy?

    Thoughts on the G1 sub move?

    I’m usually allies when I play, and my usual opponent often pulls this move and is often successful on his first hit. It definitely changes my US first round buys when the sub hits.  Maybe this is why I’m not a fan of this move! Although, if the tables are turned and I am playing as axis, I will usually opt for this move unless I’m playing againist an abosolute rookie who is new to the game and playing as US for the first time.


  • '16 '15 '10

    @Granada:

    Well, IMHO, in V4, contrary to the revised, it is not the best opening with russia to attack ukraine R1.

    I belive if you do the standard ukr, wer opening, the G7 R1 attack (SZ2, SZ5, SZ13, SZ 15, AE, kar and ukr) if succesfull, which is by far more then 50 %, gives the axis dramatic advantage. Hence, I play the norwegian gambit with russia R1, i leave ukraine and i go there with 10 tanks only R3.

    Granted this is a Germany thread, but could you go into more detail here?  Are you talking about low luck or dice?  Do you take 1 or 2 fighters to Norway?

    I’m not terribly experienced playing this game but I’m inclined to believe that if you go Nor/WR in dice, it will lead to disaster around 50% of the time or more.  However if you take both figs to Norway then at least Norway is still in the 80%ish range, and if you use low luck dice then you don’t have to worry so much about losing the game because of bad dice at West Russia.


  • 2007 AAR League

    Norway attack is suicide and if you fail you basically lost the game.

    Im a strong advocate of Belorussia and Westrussia attack, ignore Ukraine also very risky attack that leaves all your armour exposed for counter attack = ie death.



  • @Nix:

    Norway attack is suicide and if you fail you basically lost the game.

    Im a strong advocate of Belorussia and Westrussia attack, ignore Ukraine also very risky attack that leaves all your armour exposed for counter attack = ie death.

    You can also get bad dice on the Ukraine attack and fail it… I’m not sure which one is worse to happen, but Russia can recover from either attack it is just a matter of what happens afterwards.



  • @Hobbes:

    @Nix:

    Norway attack is suicide and if you fail you basically lost the game.

    Im a strong advocate of Belorussia and Westrussia attack, ignore Ukraine also very risky attack that leaves all your armour exposed for counter attack = ie death.

    You can also get bad dice on the Ukraine attack and fail it… I’m not sure which one is worse to happen, but Russia can recover from either attack it is just a matter of what happens afterwards.

    …which is why he doesn’t do Ukraine either


  • '16 '15 '10

    Bel/WR is definitely worth discussing, but I wonder if this opening has lost some of its luster compared to the Revised edition.  What I mean is–Bel/WR was effective in Revised because it prevented Germany from stacking Kar.  However, in 42, if R doesn’t kill the Nor fig R1, then ordinarily Germany has no interest in stacking Kar until G2, and will defend Nor instead.

    As for the WR/Nor vrs. WR/Ukr debates, it all depends on whether one is playing dice or ll, and
    how many planes one proposes to send to Nor.  And it’s not just the risk of failing at Nor that’s dangerous, there’s also the possiblity of losing 3 or more inf at WR and then having Germany go whole hog on West Russia, decapitating the Russian army.

    In dice, Ukraine is not risky at all compared to Nor–as much as one gets diced there, if you go with 3 arm, then R has 97% to kill the Kraut fig and still have at least 1 unit remaining.

    All that said…with low luck dice Nor/WR or even the Nor/WR/Ukr triple are no doubt worth a look.



  • @Zhukov44:

    Bel/WR is definitely worth discussing, but I wonder if this opening has lost some of its luster compared to the Revised edition.  What I mean is–Bel/WR was effective in Revised because it prevented Germany from stacking Kar.  However, in 42, if R doesn’t kill the Nor fig R1, then ordinarily Germany has no interest in stacking Kar until G2, and will defend Nor instead.

    As for the WR/Nor vrs. WR/Ukr debates, it all depends on whether one is playing dice or ll, and
    how many planes one proposes to send to Nor.  And it’s not just the risk of failing at Nor that’s dangerous, there’s also the possiblity of losing 3 or more inf at WR and then having Germany go whole hog on West Russia, decapitating the Russian army.

    In dice, Ukraine is not risky at all compared to Nor–as much as one gets diced there, if you go with 3 arm, then R has 97% to kill the Kraut fig and still have at least 1 unit remaining.

    All that said…with low luck dice Nor/WR or even the Nor/WR/Ukr triple are no doubt worth a look.

    What attacks Norway, WR, and Ukr in the triple?


  • '16 '15 '10

    Something like

    3 inf arm fig attk Nor (70% in low luck)
    6 inf art fig attk WR (100% in low luck)
    3 inf art 3 arm attk UKR (79% in low luck)

    Or you take the fig from WR and send it to either Ukr or Nor for 100% odds in one of those battles, but that lowers your odds in WR from 100% with 4.3 remaining to 77% with 1.91 remaining (odds come from TripleA calc).

    Very risky approach and costs alot of IPCs, but it might work in cases where you get both G figs out of there R1.

    I had someone try this against me in a dice game recently and it backfired so badly that I took Moscow on Germany 1.  So not recommended for a dice game unless you want to go for broke.



  • @Zhukov44:

    Something like

    3 inf arm fig attk Nor (70% in low luck)
    6 inf art fig attk WR (100% in low luck)
    3 inf art 3 arm attk UKR (79% in low luck)

    Or you take the fig from WR and send it to either Ukr or Nor for 100% odds in one of those battles, but that lowers your odds in WR from 100% with 4.3 remaining to 77% with 1.91 remaining (odds come from TripleA calc).

    Very risky approach and costs alot of IPCs, but it might work in cases where you get both G figs out of there R1.

    I had someone try this against me in a dice game recently and it backfired so badly that I took Moscow on Germany 1.  So not recommended for a dice game unless you want to go for broke.

    Can you link me to that game?



  • @Zhukov44:

    Something like

    3 inf arm fig attk Nor (70% in low luck)
    6 inf art fig attk WR (100% in low luck)
    3 inf art 3 arm attk UKR (79% in low luck)

    Or you take the fig from WR and send it to either Ukr or Nor for 100% odds in one of those battles, but that lowers your odds in WR from 100% with 4.3 remaining to 77% with 1.91 remaining (odds come from TripleA calc).

    Very risky approach and costs alot of IPCs, but it might work in cases where you get both G figs out of there R1.

    I had someone try this against me in a dice game recently and it backfired so badly that I took Moscow on Germany 1.  So not recommended for a dice game unless you want to go for broke.

    Even when playing with dice I do the Ukraine attack. It is rare to see it fail and Russia might also get lucky and only lose 1-2 units in the process, turning Ukraine into a big headache for the Germans. If it fails… well the odds are about the same than attacking the UK DD in Egypt with the BB, and if you lose that one the Axis will also have a longer staircase to climb.

    With LL the triple attack (BR/WR/Ukr) is a big setback for Germany but BR should be the 3rd target, not Norway. Even if Russia kills the 2 German fighters on Norway/Ukr not attacking BR it leaves WR completely open for a German counterattack and the Germans can counterattack all 3 territories.



  • @calvinhobbesliker:

    @Hobbes:

    @Nix:

    Norway attack is suicide and if you fail you basically lost the game.

    Im a strong advocate of Belorussia and Westrussia attack, ignore Ukraine also very risky attack that leaves all your armour exposed for counter attack = ie death.

    You can also get bad dice on the Ukraine attack and fail it… I’m not sure which one is worse to happen, but Russia can recover from either attack it is just a matter of what happens afterwards.

    …which is why he doesn’t do Ukraine either

    Ah, I read it differently the 1st time. thanks


  • 2007 AAR League

    @Zhukov44:

    Something like

    3 inf arm fig attk Nor (70% in low luck)
    6 inf art fig attk WR (100% in low luck)
    3 inf art 3 arm attk UKR (79% in low luck)

    Or you take the fig from WR and send it to either Ukr or Nor for 100% odds in one of those battles, but that lowers your odds in WR from 100% with 4.3 remaining to 77% with 1.91 remaining (odds come from TripleA calc).

    Very risky approach and costs alot of IPCs, but it might work in cases where you get both G figs out of there R1.

    I had someone try this against me in a dice game recently and it backfired so badly that I took Moscow on Germany 1.  So not recommended for a dice game unless you want to go for broke.

    And if you fail you lost the game, So basically your betting the game on R1.

    Also i exclusively play dice thought,



  • I know we shouldn’t talk R1 in this thread, but imho attacking either NOR or UKR in R1 is very very risky and pretty much messes up the russian army, leaving it wide open to every G1 counterattack imagined. In most cases G1 will be able to reclaim WR, NOR and URK (and even KAR) and destroy the bulke of the Red army armor while they are at it.

    Nonetheless, if one desides to do so, imho it pays better off to attack NOR than UKR, because the destruction of the NOR fgt assures that the SZ2 BB survives G1 which I believe is absolutely paramount for the Allies, either playing a US Atlantic or Pacific strat (especially the latter).


    As for G1, imho must be (given R1 took WR and UKR)

    1. capture KAR, UKR with minimum forces required
    2. SS+bmb+fgt SZ2,
    3. BB SZ15
    4. 2 inf 2 arm 1 fgt AES,
    5. 3 fgt SZ13
    6. fortify WE + NOR with 3 inf, fgt each
      8 ) 2 SS SZ7

    …… and place:

    1. AC (+land 1 or 2 ftr on it, depending on SZ13 battle), TT in SZ5
    2. CC, TT SZ14 (and move to SE 2 arm ->WE and 2 inf ->G)

    “AC Graff Zeppeling reporting for duty”. 😛

    I know it leaves Europe empty, but imho it messes up UK1 for good, because i) out of nowhere UK must consider a G2 “Sea Lion” (2 inf, 2 arm, 4 ftr, 1 bmb), ii) it assures the german flow to Africa no matter what happens to SZ14 CC or the SZ15 BB.
    And G can afford an empty Europe so early in the game, with the US far away, the UK in trouble and the red army still underequipped.

    What do you think?


  • '16 '15 '10

    …… and place:

    1. AC (+land 1 or 2 ftr on it, depending on SZ13 battle), TT in SZ5
    2. CC, TT SZ14 (and move to SE 2 arm ->WE and 2 inf ->G)

    2 fleets?

    UK buys 3 figs, and USA buys 3 bmbs.  At that point, Germany had better give up its fleets for dead, because if G engages in another round of naval spending then the Russians will have superior TUV on land.

    Also, in cases where R bought a sub/fig R1 and intends to destroy SZ15 on R2, they can go ahead and follow up with another sub(s) buy on R2 if all you buy is a cruiser for SZ14.


  • 2007 AAR League

    Agree with Zhukov, imo iPC´s are better spent on Air units then naval units, 3 bom, 2 inf or 4 fig…  G1



  • @Zhukov44:

    …… and place:

    1. AC (+land 1 or 2 ftr on it, depending on SZ13 battle), TT in SZ5
    2. CC, TT SZ14 (and move to SE 2 arm ->WE and 2 inf ->G)

    2 fleets?

    UK buys 3 figs, and USA buys 3 bmbs.  At that point, Germany had better give up its fleets for dead, because if G engages in another round of naval spending then the Russians will have superior TUV on land.

    Also, in cases where R bought a sub/fig R1 and intends to destroy SZ15 on R2, they can go ahead and follow up with another sub(s) buy on R2 if all you buy is a cruiser for SZ14.

    In every case both fleets are dead eventually (first the baltic, then the Med) but either UK will need 2 or most probably 3 rounds (buy 3 fgt , buy 2 bmb + 1 SS at best, attack the baltic) to destroy the baltic fleet, unless the USA helps a lot, which gives axis the time to lean on africa untill it cracks. As for the med fleet, we always play the Straights of Bosporus  closed to all powers for historical accuracy, so Russia will either have to go heavy on airforce that cannot afford, or the USA will go Atlantic just to chase those CC and BB or the British will deal with them after they clear the Baltic. In every case, G has 2 or 3 rounds to crack africa, reach 47-49 IPC and start building some serious pressure against moscow.

    No?

    And you  r right, G imho should never buy a second round of navy. The baltic navy is just to distract the british away from Africa, the med navy is just to ensure that at least 1 inf+arm crosses to africa in G2 and even G3.


  • '16 '15 '10

    Bosphorus strait closed doesn’t stop Russia from the R2 fleet kill; Russia can buy a fighter or bomber R1 instead.  In this case, they could then choose whether to take out 14 or 15 first, and then buy another fig/bmb R2 to finish off what’s left.  So the only way to keep a Med fleet alive is to keep it all in 14.

    Re. the Baltic, if UK buys 3 figs, then on UK2 they have 5, possibly 6 planes to destroy 2 fig 1 ac 1 dd, (depending on whether UK risked its bomber to kill your CC/tpt in sz 14 on Uk1), plus the USA follow-up attack just in case.  So Germany must either buy a 2nd AC or lose its Baltic fleet on UK2.

    Even more expensive then these bad trades is the price G will pay on the Eastern front for spending 34$ on navy instead of troops.

    Give it a shot on GTO or TripleA live–-best way to see how things play out is against a wide variety of opposition.


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