• @Zhukov44:

    Bosphorus strait closed doesn’t stop Russia from the R2 fleet kill; Russia can buy a fighter or bomber R1 instead.  In this case, they could then choose whether to take out 14 or 15 first, and then buy another fig/bmb R2 to finish off what’s left.  So the only way to keep a Med fleet alive is to keep it all in 14.

    Re. the Baltic, if UK buys 3 figs, then on UK2 they have 5, possibly 6 planes to destroy 2 fig 1 ac 1 dd, (depending on whether UK risked its bomber to kill your CC/tpt in sz 14 on Uk1), plus the USA follow-up attack just in case.  So Germany must either buy a 2nd AC or lose its Baltic fleet on UK2.

    Even more expensive then these bad trades is the price G will pay on the Eastern front for spending 34$ on navy instead of troops.

    Give it a shot on GTO or TripleA live–-best way to see how things play out is against a wide variety of opposition.

    I agree. Trying to keep 2 fleets on the Baltic/Med is a waste of resources. Germany should instead focus either on building on SZ14 to try to hold Africa (and I stress ‘try’ since if the Allies really want it back, they’ll have it). Plus I’d be salivating if I was Russia and G goes full naval on G1.  😄

    In total Africa is worth 11 IPCs. By comparison all of the Eastern territories between G and R are worth 20 (or 24 if you add Caucasus). The real trick is to balance the investment in Africa necessary to take/hold it with the gains you get out of it and make it as hard as possible to the other player to do the same. If you are building a carrier and a transport for SZ14 that’s 21 IPCs + 12 to 15 for ground units each turn, and it will take a while to get that investment back. And that’s all money that won’t be going towards Russia.


  • Strategic Planner as Germany tends to do this
    1)Take Karelia , Anglo-Egypt Sudan,  UK, and sometimes Caucases on G1
    2) Take Caucases definitely,Archangel,Africa, and possibly Moscow on G2

    I reccomend a Defensive or KRF for Germany. KBF is possible with Strategic Planner but Strategic planner has won every game but 1.


  • How does Germany take UK on g1?


  • I recently realized that most people play Bosporus open. This is imho not only historically wrong, but also created a huge advantage for the Axis. How can the allies ever win if G med trannies drop units in caucasus directly from SE??

    I know it is an optional rule to play Bosporus closed, but I think it should be the other way around.

    And I think TripleA team should include 2 optional rules, a) Bosporus closed to ships and b) strategic bombing raid defending + escort fgt…

    No?

  • 2007 AAR League

    well Mediterranean fleet dies r2 mostly…  if germany don´t make a significant investment… So it is balanced i think with it open, (atleast in revised)


  • @Advosan:

    I recently realized that most people play Bosporus open. This is imho not only historically wrong, but also created a huge advantage for the Axis. How can the allies ever win if G med trannies drop units in caucasus directly from SE??

    I know it is an optional rule to play Bosporus closed, but I think it should be the other way around.

    And I think TripleA team should include 2 optional rules, a) Bosporus closed to ships and b) strategic bombing raid defending + escort fgt…

    No?

    The optional rule about the Bosphorus closed only applies to AA50, not AA1942.
    Edit: Advosan told me where to look for, it is on page 9.

    And the game does not aim to completely follow History.

    If Germany is repetedly using transports to drop units into Caucasus then the Allies have been taking a lot of wrong decisions.

  • '16 '15 '10

    Obviously it varies from game to game, but on the balance Bosphorus Strait closed hurts Allies more than Axis because it limits Russian sub builds.  As long as the German Med fleet survives, it should drop units into Africa, not Cau.


  • @Zhukov44:

    @Granada:

    Well, IMHO, in V4, contrary to the revised, it is not the best opening with russia to attack ukraine R1.

    I belive if you do the standard ukr, wer opening, the G7 R1 attack (SZ2, SZ5, SZ13, SZ 15, AE, kar and ukr) if succesfull, which is by far more then 50 %, gives the axis dramatic advantage. Hence, I play the norwegian gambit with russia R1, i leave ukraine and i go there with 10 tanks only R3.

    Granted this is a Germany thread, but could you go into more detail here?  Are you talking about low luck or dice?  Do you take 1 or 2 fighters to Norway?

    I’m not terribly experienced playing this game but I’m inclined to believe that if you go Nor/WR in dice, it will lead to disaster around 50% of the time or more.  However if you take both figs to Norway then at least Norway is still in the 80%ish range, and if you use low luck dice then you don’t have to worry so much about losing the game because of bad dice at West Russia.

    Zhuk, I see your question only today, sorry. I do Norway with both figs and i do WRus with all the units from cauc, where i leave only AA gun. I get cauc back R2. I usually move 1 inf to karelia, and i take the one last hit on one of the planes.

    I only play dice, and I think the game we played was the only one when i did not get to kill the norwegian fig R1. When this happens, allies are of course in a deep trouble, because after a succesful german SZ2, the TUV difference is 40 for axis compared to what it should have been (german fig lives, russian fig gone, UK bb gone). This equals to a bid of fourty in a way and is very difficult to recover from unless you get some outstanding dice later on in the game.

    Before combat I also leave 2 inf in arch to move at the non combat. In cases when the dice went exceptionally well, i might move the second fig back to karelia and reinforce it with the two inf from arch to make an attack on kar more costly for germans. Otherwise they reinforce WR.

    I usually move all six units from eastern bordering territories to moscow, though with a very good dice, i might keep 2 inf in Sinkiang. I buy 3inf and 3tnk, thus I typically have 1inf and 1tnk Nor, 1 inf Kar, 4-6inf, 2art, 3tnk, AA WR,  7-9 inf, 3tnk Moscow. Might have 2 in Sink and always put 6 to Bur.

    Germany might surely retake Norway but if I am able to trade karelia for at least one or two more rounds, than UK and US will set up in Norway R2or3 to the large extent due to the surviving SZ2 battleship and that is the main strategic value of that move.

  • '16 '15 '10

    Well, I understand that you get something like 83% on Norway with the 2nd fig, so I can understand the logic of the gambit as long as you always attack with both figs.  But even when you avoid the 17%, there’s still a fairly large % of losing 4 or more units in WR, making R vulnerable to the big all-in attack.

    When it works it should give you a nice Allied cushion, but as mentioned there is a high probability of catastrophe (maybe not 50%, but surely at least 20%) with this opening….our match was simply an egregious example of what happens when it goes bad.

    I can understand the argument that the Nor gambit may be the best shot at an Allied victory; I’m just not experienced enough to be convinced one way or the other.


  • Since G1 has been comming up lets revive this post for interested parties.  Some good ideas and strats on this thread.

    Questions speaking in the language of Dice.

    1. Is sz2 still the best option ?… if G looses this battle to a competent Allied player it is potentially devistating, furthermore; some believe The Norweigan Gambit R1 is the way to go.  Effectively eliminating the sz2 attack.

    2. Could attacking sz10 be worth comparing odds and values to the sz2 attack ?  Some think this a huge G advantage and still this move seems not so popular, why?

    3. Attack sz1 sub remains for G2.

    If G looses either sz2/sz10 battle uk/usa will not loose a tranny.

    This is dice … anything can and will happen.

    Thoughts ?


  • i also would like to hear some experienced voices about sz2.  i always try for the UK BB but the problem is it is not really a sure thing, and even when it works i often lose a fighter.  whereas if i don’t go try for it, i can use the bomber in egypt, the sub for the free transport (or even take the cheap shot at US fleet) and the fighter for… something, i suppose.  considering that the UK1 buy doesn’t really change whether or not they lose the BB, is destroying it always worth the lost units/missed opportunities?  i’m wondering.  again, thanks for any opinions on this.


  • @Paulzy:

    Since G1 has been comming up lets revive this post for interested parties.  Some good ideas and strats on this thread.

    Questions speaking in the language of Dice.

    1. Is sz2 still the best option ?… if G looses this battle to a competent Allied player it is potentially devistating, furthermore; some believe The Norweigan Gambit R1 is the way to go.  Effectively eliminating the sz2 attack.

    2. Could attacking sz10 be worth comparing odds and values to the sz2 attack ?  Some think this a huge G advantage and still this move seems not so popular, why?

    3. Attack sz1 sub remains for G2.

    If G looses either sz2/sz10 battle uk/usa will not loose a tranny.

    This is dice … anything can and will happen.

    Thoughts ?

    I think I can give you a feedback, since in my Norwegian gambit games i tend to leave my oponents just with the three options: SZ1 UK sub, SZ10 US cru + 2 trn, SZ 13 UK cru.

    Interestingly enough, even if I sometimes fail to kill the norwegian fig R R1, I see only about 50 % of the attack on the SZ2 UK BB. I see those doubts here too and I am amazed to be honest because this is the best attack by far of the four options. You have 91 % to win. You inflict demage of 27 to UK, you usually lose 16. What a trade! You will not have many chances like this in course of the game with a good player.

    Out of the other three options, people usually do either SZ1 trannie, or use the sub to support the attack on SZ13. I see very little SZ10.

    Personally I think it might be because US player quite often sends the 2trn suicidal to Africa which shows that US does not really need those trannies that much to be effective. The US economy is huge and replenishes loses with relative ease. Since UK economy is much tighter it appears to be more effecient to inflict demages on UK.

    Hence Germany player risks more by avoiding the 100 % secure kill of the SZ1 trannie then by the very fact of 50 % chance of not killing anything in the SZ 10 attack. In other words the SZ10 atack is not just 50 % chance of losing the sub. Anybody would be willing to take the risk on its own I guess because it is 50 % you lose 6 value of units vs. 50 % killing 26 value of units if this was the only option for the sub. But avoiding the other options with much better odds is what really matters.

    Also in the case of succesful Norwegian gambit Russians have 1-3 units Nor, 1-2 units Kar, a unit Cauc and a stack on WR. So Germany needs 1-2 air AE, 1-2 air Nor, 1 air Kar if it does not want to start trading tanks R1 and we are not talking about an extra fig to give cover for the BB SZ15. So at the end you often see the Germany player being forced to use in fact the sub on the cru SZ13 because he is not willing to send only two figs which might really turn terribly ugly for G – just three misses on 3 and two hits of the defence on 3 and the game is almost over since the cru will then take a part in the immediate killing of BB and after a retake of AE Germany presence in Africa is gone together with 3 of its starting figs.

    Thus you really see sending the sub SZ13 many times.

    To sum it up, my advice for the G sub SZ8 would be:

    1. Always attack the SZ 2 UK BB (provided of course you give the cover to the bmb and fig off Nor).
    2. If you can send 3figs SZ 13, go to kill SZ1 trn.
    3. If you only send 2 fig SZ 13, go to give them the cover.


  • @ragnarok628:

    i also would like to hear some experienced voices about sz2.

    Although I’m a newbie, I learned from this forum a lot of things. The odds to win SZ2 combat is high and the IPC gain is also intriguing, but this is not key. The key is if you do not conduct SZ2 combat, UK could build a safe fleet in UK1 and start to harassing the north or west coast from UK2 with a BB bombardment. In this case, usually, UK could take control of Norway from UK3 onwards, it’s +3ipc for UK and -3ipc for G forever. I don’t think G has resource to counter it because of USSR’s threat in the front line. Besides, USSR could follow UK to take Karelia and cut German troops away from Norway. If UK could successfully build an IC in Norway, taking Berlin is just a matter of time. So sinking the SZ BB delays UK’s impact on Germany and helps G win precious time to deal with the east front. If Japan could knock out Moscow before Allies make a successful landing in Germany, that’s a typical success to the Axis. So, even you would usually lose a ftr in the SZ2 combat, it’s a must attack since it’s urgent in strategical sense.


  • fair enough.  any opinions to the contrary?


  • There are no fixed “must attacks” for G1.

    Hitting the UK battleship/transport is often, but not always, one of the attacks Germany should do G1.

    Why not always?  Because something better might present itself.


  • I’d say taking out the UK med navy are must do attacks, as well as taking Karelia and Ukraine.


  • @Bunnies:

    There are no fixed “must attacks” for G1.

    Hitting the UK battleship/transport is often, but not always, one of the attacks Germany should do G1.

    Why not always?  Because something better might present itself.

    West Russia…  :evil:


  • ok then, but excluding some exploitable snafu for russia, does sz2 become a no brainer, or just a good option among others?


  • @Hobbes:

    @Bunnies:

    There are no fixed “must attacks” for G1.

    Hitting the UK battleship/transport is often, but not always, one of the attacks Germany should do G1.

    Why not always?  Because something better might present itself.

    West Russia…  :evil:

    West Russia, Caucasus, and Russia, as opportunity presents.


  • @aqian:

    The key is if you do not conduct SZ2 combat, UK could build a safe fleet in UK1 and start to harassing the north or west coast from UK2 with a BB bombardment.

    And additionally the BB is a “get out of jail, free” card for naval battles. BB, AC +2ftr, 2xDD is 18 defense value and the first 3 hits will be 12 IPC still leaving 14 defense.

    Just to match that defensive power Germany needs 2 Bombers, 2 fighters, 2 subs. And the first three hits reduce it to 11 attack.

    To kill such a fleet, Germany needs to buy correctly, position correctly, and strike immediately when it gets the chance. And the heavy Luftwaffe purchases might leave the ground forces struggling vs. Russia.


  • 8-)

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